Not Posting Scores

[mark m]

It’s a mess. First, as others have pointed out, it would be best for future rounds if they were posted by the Committee. Especially considering Golf Genius is being used - it’s easy. That way you know the scores are adjusted properly, and posted in a timely manner.

 

Look at Section 7. Failure to post can lead to a penalty score being posted. Repeated failures could lead to the withdrawal of the Index. But they need to talk to the guy first. How many acceptable scores are we talking here? It sounds deliberate and egregious. 
 

As Colin mentioned, some clubs/leagues have requirements that you need “5 posted rounds including 2 in events” to be able to participate in a big event like a CC. Yes the Committee failed here. But also the members. You mentioned he has won a lot, and no one he had played with checked on his handicap? It’s best if the members police themselves, and go to the Committee only if the player is obstinate and would not change his ways. No Committee can possibly know what all members are up to - especially the lone wolves who come out of the woodwork at tournament time. That’s a big reason why some clubs have qualifying requirements.

 

The best policy is to cover score posting requirements, peer review, failure to post, and so on, in a meeting and/or in documents very early in the season. 

Edited September 5, 2021 by mark m

[SkiSchoolPro]

24 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

The missing ingredient here is an active local handicap committee. That is where enforcement actions can and should take place when the conditions of the competition don't handle it. 

 

dave

Yes, I agree, but I'm still having trouble understanding why the WHS makes posting optional. (Assuming @Colin L is correct)

What's the point of having a unified system if it is up to each player/club if/when to post.

 

Put another way, why not just have players assign themselves a "valid" WHS index given that they have discretion on when to post scores.

[SkiSchoolPro]

Fwiw, I am not sure what software the club uses. It may not be golf genius. Obviously, it would help if they posted league rounds.

 

Our season was 14 weeks, this guy played most/all weeks, but several weeks like Pinehurst and Shamble weren't postable.

Edited September 4, 2021 by SkiSchoolPro

[mark m]

3 minutes ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

Fwiw, I am not sure what software the club uses. It may not be golf genius. Obviously, it would help if they posted league rounds.

Is your league in the WHS?

(Do you have an official Index?)

[SkiSchoolPro]

7 minutes ago, mark m said:

Is your league in the WHS?

(Do you have an official Index?)

Yes, they use our official Ghin/CGA index.

Edited September 4, 2021 by SkiSchoolPro

[mark m]

29 minutes ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

Yes, they use our official Ghin/CGA index.

 Others may have looked him up and not said anything. Sometimes it takes an incident like this to spur improvements. I hope things improve down the line for you guys.

[Shilgy]

55 minutes ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

Yes, I agree, but I'm still having trouble understanding why the WHS makes posting optional. (Assuming @Colin L is correct)

What's the point of having a unified system if it is up to each player/club if/when to post.

 

Put another way, why not just have players assign themselves a "valid" WHS index given that they have discretion on when to post scores.

I don’t believe that is what @Colin Lwas saying.  He was saying the man has a valid handicap in the system and all.

 

He may have had a sandbaggers cap but it was a valid cap if dues were paid.  
 

Whether we should be using a different definition, like “Authorized “, is a good question but he does have an official handicap.

[SkiSchoolPro]

This video 

 

along with the "Under the WHS, there are plenty of opportunities for players to submit acceptable scores for handicap purposes"

https://www.whs.com/articles/2020/acceptable_scores.html

make score posting seem more optional than it should be if you want everyone to have a level playing field in net competitions 

Edited September 5, 2021 by SkiSchoolPro

[SkiSchoolPro]

12 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

I don’t believe that is what @Colin Lwas saying.  He was saying the man has a valid handicap in the system and all.

 

He may have had a sandbaggers cap but it was a valid cap if dues were paid.  
 

Whether we should be using a different definition, like “Authorized “, is a good question but he does have an official handicap.

What I am saying is that there should be posting rules you are REQUIRED to follow if you want a valid/official handicap.

 

If you give players descretion on which scores they choose to post, you could have 2 players of the same ability/scores have 2 very different valid/official handicaps simply because they opted to post different scores (i.e. A only posts his good scores and B only posts his bad scores)

[mark m]

• If the Handicap Committee concludes that a player failed to submit a score for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage, it should consider withdrawing the player’s Handicap Index, and/or applying an appropriate penalty score (high or low depending on intent).

• The Handicap Committee or the Authorized Association should consider disciplinary procedures for players who repeatedly fail to submit their scores or who fail to complete rounds.

Those are from Section 7.1b

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html

 

 

 

 

[Shilgy]

26 minutes ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

What I am saying is that there should be posting rules you are REQUIRED to follow if you want a valid/official handicap.

 

If you give players descretion on which scores they choose to post, you could have 2 players of the same ability/scores have 2 very different valid/official handicaps simply because they opted to post different scores (i.e. A only posts his good scores and B only posts his bad scores)

Definitely.

 

Edited add…..how exactly do you propose  the rule be written?  And how exactly is that enforced?  In the case of this thread a player went two years without posting.  And yet no one questioned his handicap not wavering despite good play.

 

So like I said in an earlier post peer review is a must.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Shilgy

[SkiSchoolPro]

9 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Definitely.

 

Edited add…..how exactly do you propose  the rule be written?  And how exactly is that enforced?  In the case of this thread a player went two years without posting.  And yet no one questioned his handicap not wavering despite good play.

 

So like I said in an earlier post peer review is a must.

"All acceptable scores MUST be posted."

 

Enforcement is more difficult, but, like you and others have said, a handicap committee/peer review can help.

 

 

I just exchanged emails with the player. Turns out he has 2 separate GHIN accounts (with different indexes)- one at our club and another out of state where he spends winters. He posted scores to the other account. Not sure which index our club used for comps.

[mark m]

Sorry to say, that’s not kosher either. He should have one scoring record. Those two GHIN scoring records should be merged. 

[rogolf]

5 minutes ago, mark m said:

Sorry to say, that’s not kosher either. He should have one scoring record. Those two GHIN scoring records should be merged. 

must be merged.

[nsxguy]

59 minutes ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

"All acceptable scores MUST be posted."

 

Enforcement is more difficult, but, like you and others have said, a handicap committee/peer review can help.

 

 

I just exchanged emails with the player. Turns out he has 2 separate GHIN accounts (with different indexes)- one at our club and another out of state where he spends winters. He posted scores to the other account. Not sure which index our club used for comps.

 

I believe you told us that (presumably) the 'cap he was using didn't have any rounds posted to it for years.

 

If so, HE KNEW IT and the guy's a crook.

[jomatty]

6 hours ago, Colin L said:

Returning scores is an"expectation" not a requirement.  If you stop submitting scores but remain a member of your club then, yes, your index will just stay the same indefinitely and be as valid as that of another player who regularly fulfils the expectation by posting scores.  If you did that, the way to prevent you  from entering handicap competitions is to have a clause in the Terms of the Competition.

That is at the very least in opposition with the spirit of the rules and  entire point of playing a handicap tournament.  I also am not sure it is correct.  The word “expectation” seems like you are “expected” to do it if you want to have a valid handicap.  I don’t think the issue is the wording in the terms of the competition it is in the oversight.  By your definition you could also just post your bad rounds and say you were not required to post the good ones.  We all know that is not how it work

[caniac6]

6 hours ago, Colin L said:

The point I'm trying to make is just  that there has to be something specific to prevent someone from playing who has a valid handicap - for example, a clause in the Terms of the Competition or, as described above,  action taken to put a player out of their club for not posting scores.  

 

 

Just tell him that they know he has been playing, and not posting. Don’t kick him out of the club. Just don’t let him play in net competition. Either that, or he plays scratch.

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

"All acceptable scores MUST be posted."

 

Enforcement is more difficult, but, like you and others have said, a handicap committee/peer review can help.

 

 

I just exchanged emails with the player. Turns out he has 2 separate GHIN accounts (with different indexes)- one at our club and another out of state where he spends winters. He posted scores to the other account. Not sure which index our club used for comps.

I am going to throw this out there…..I doubt really that this is the case bu ya never know.  Some guys really are clueless when it comes to handicap index calculations.

 

You say he did post scores but they were actually posted just to his winter course.  Being in Arizona and being quite familiar with guys trying to merge GHIN posting at multiple clubs is it possible he was posting all along thinking the accounts had been properly merged by his winter club.  I know of guys that have had quite an issue getting that accomplished by well meaning pros.

  So if he was posting all scores he may have thought they were merged if he was told they were.  Like I said some really are clueless on the handicap system.

[Colin L]

To be clearer about what I've pointed out and why.  The Rules set out an expectation about posting scores and also a number of ways in which clubs and competition organisers can ensure that players maintain their handicaps by posting scores as is expected of them.  The onus is on us, the users of the system, to make the system work and there are plenty of examples in this thread of how that can be done.    What I'm suggesting  is that if a player who hasn't posted scores for ages enters a competition with a valid handicap and wins, unless the terms of that competition lay down for example that a competitor must have posted a certain number of scores in the previous 12 months, he could not legitimately be denied his prize.  You can't disqualify someone for not having done what he should have done, only for not doing what he was required to do.

 

It was meant as a bit of advice.  If the competition organisers don't want someone like that to enter and win, they have to be pro-active in preventing it.  The Rules themselves don't.

 

And here are the relevant parts of the Rules.

 

From Rule 1.3 (i) - my bold:

 

"A player is expected to:

Act with integrity by following the Rules of Handicapping and to refrain from using, or circumventing, the Rules of Handicapping for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage,

Attempt to make the best score possible at each hole,

Submit acceptable scores for handicap purposes as soon as possible after the round is completed and before midnight local time,

Submit acceptable scores to provide reasonable evidence of their demonstrated ability,

Play by the Rules of Golf, and

Certify the scores of fellow players."

 

And from Rule 5.5 - again my bold:

 

"A score continues to be part of the Handicap Index calculation as long as it remains within the player’s most recent 20 scores recorded, regardless of the age of the score......  A Handicap Index only lapses if a player is no longer a member of at least one golf club."

 

[nsxguy]

12 hours ago, jomatty said:

That is at the very least in opposition with the spirit of the rules and  entire point of playing a handicap tournament.  I also am not sure it is correct.  The word “expectation” seems like you are “expected” to do it if you want to have a valid handicap.  I don’t think the issue is the wording in the terms of the competition it is in the oversight.  By your definition you could also just post your bad rounds and say you were not required to post the good ones.  We all know that is not how it work

 

In the USA I would suggest that you are exactly right.

 

One must remember that Colin, besides being a "rulie" is also from the UK where MOST rounds are part of an organized club competition and (I believe) casual rounds, which we here in the U.S. post regularly, are far less often played there.

 

Their comps are more formalized and I expect they have "Terms of Competition" published and handed out for every competitor.

 

Here in the States it is my observation that much of this is pretty informal, especially amongst "groups/games", as opposed to more formally organized and local association registered "clubs" and THEIR tournaments.

 

But I can say with some certainly that their is an EXPECTATION, if not formally stated, of any and ALL NET competitions here in the States that a singular, accurate and up-to-date handicap of ALL rounds played according to the Handicapping Rules is REQUIRED. And, almost certainly, if discovered beforehand, will result in a player not being allowed to enter.

 

After the fact ? Who knows what they'd do about the completed comp but that guy will likely never be allowed to play in that particular club again unless he demonstrates to their satisfaction it was an error and mends his ways (or learns better - to give him the benefit of the doubt).

[nsxguy]

12 hours ago, caniac6 said:

Just tell him that they know he has been playing, and not posting. Don’t kick him out of the club. Just don’t let him play in net competition. Either that, or he plays scratch.

 

Not sure who you're suggesting should "tell him". *I* wouldn't. I'd report it to the Committee and let them handle it. That is what they're "paid" for (or "signed up" for ).

 

Ever tried telling someone they're breaking the Rules ???

 

Good grief, you'd be better off telling your wife her dress is too tight.

 

 

11 hours ago, Shilgy said:

I am going to throw this out there…..I doubt really that this is the case bu ya never know.  Some guys really are clueless when it comes to handicap index calculations.

 

You say he did post scores but they were actually posted just to his winter course.  Being in Arizona and being quite familiar with guys trying to merge GHIN posting at multiple clubs is it possible he was posting all along thinking the accounts had been properly merged by his winter club.  I know of guys that have had quite an issue getting that accomplished by well meaning pros.

  So if he was posting all scores he may have thought they were merged if he was told they were.  Like I said some really are clueless on the handicap system.

 

While I personally try, as you have done here, to give someone the benefit of the doubt when possible, this guy has been playing at the same handicap, with the same league, through a rather long period of time. AND wins.

 

And I've personally never heard of someone trying to "merge" GHIN postings. Merge implies 2 different GHIN numbers which of course should never happen.

 

I DO understand someone being out of season "at home" and not realizing they should be posting scores if they're playing in a place that is IN season but,,,,,,,,,

 

Frankly, I don't believe one needs to know much about handicaps to realize that if one's handicap wasn't changing AT ALL over the entire year, something's wrong somewhere.

 

Not to mention the Committee. Same for him/her/them. If this guy keeps playing at the same number for all of 2021, especially now that caps change every round, as a Committeeman/Handicap Chair, I'd certainly look into it.

 

This guy didn't just show up for a comp or 2 and run away afterwards.

 

The OP - "Just noticed that the guy who won our League POY for most $ won hasn't posted a score since 2019. Among other events, he won the 2 round Sr. Club Championship gross and our final event on Wednesday with a 66 net (as a 14+ index based on 2018-19 scores)"

 

This sounds like a failure by the Committee as much as anything else. Then again, if it's run by just 2 assistant pros I guess it's likely they have a lot of others things to do and don't pay much attention.

 

But now that I re-read the OP (as bolded above) and the guy not realizing his cap never changed, I'll stick to my previous opinion. The guy's a bagger.

[Shilgy]

14 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Not sure who you're suggesting should "tell him". *I* wouldn't. I'd report it to the Committee and let them handle it. That is what they're "paid" for (or "signed up" for ).

 

Ever tried telling someone they're breaking the Rules ???

 

Good grief, you'd be better off telling your wife her dress is too tight.

 

 

 

While I personally try, as you have done here, to give someone the benefit of the doubt when possible, this guy has been playing at the same handicap, with the same league, through a rather long period of time. AND wins.

 

And I've personally never heard of someone trying to "merge" GHIN postings. Merge implies 2 different GHIN numbers which of course should never happen.

 

I DO understand someone being out of season "at home" and not realizing they should be posting scores if they're playing in a place that is IN season but,,,,,,,,,

 

Frankly, I don't believe one needs to know much about handicaps to realize that if one's handicap wasn't changing AT ALL over the entire year, something's wrong somewhere.

 

Not to mention the Committee. Same for him/her/them. If this guy keeps playing at the same number for all of 2021, especially now that caps change every round, as a Committeeman/Handicap Chair, I'd certainly look into it.

 

This guy didn't just show up for a comp or 2 and run away afterwards.

 

The OP - "Just noticed that the guy who won our League POY for most $ won hasn't posted a score since 2019. Among other events, he won the 2 round Sr. Club Championship gross and our final event on Wednesday with a 66 net (as a 14+ index based on 2018-19 scores)"

 

This sounds like a failure by the Committee as much as anything else. Then again, if it's run by just 2 assistant pros I guess it's likely they have a lot of others things to do and don't pay much attention.

 

But now that I re-read the OP (as bolded above) and the guy not realizing his cap never changed, I'll stick to my previous opinion. The guy's a bagger.

Yes guys can wind up with multiple GHIN numbers if at multiple clubs.  As mentioned I have many friends that summer elsewhere and getting the accounts merged has been difficult.  So if he was posting all scores to one account and not getting merged it’s understandable.

  What is not understandable is how it took TWO FREAKIN’ YEARS of this guy winning to realize there was an issue.  Both on the players part and other members at the not updated club.  Did the player know there was an issue?  Seems likely to me.  
 

Sad but there are players that would take advantage of the situation presented.

[mark m]

It is not difficult to get scoring records merged. The golf association will do it in a couple of minutes. What they need is:

 

1. Which specific club is the player designating as his home club?

2. His GHIN numbers at the clubs where he is a member. 
 

 

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

One must remember that Colin, besides being a "rulie" is also from the UK where MOST rounds are part of an organized club competition and (I believe) casual rounds, which we here in the U.S. post regularly, are far less often played there.

 

Their comps are more formalized and I expect they have "Terms of Competition" published and handed out for every competitor......

 

It makes no difference to what I was saying  where I'm from or what I am!  The Rules of handicapping are the same here as they are with you and  the expectations of posting scores are the same although we are more limited in the types of scores we are allowed to return scores from.     I was commenting only on organised competitions such as the OP seems clearly to be talking about and the fact that you can't rely on the Rules of Handicapping alone to deal with someone winning one despite not having posted scores in ages: you have to write something into the rules of the competition wherever you are in the world.

 

All the other things being said about ensuring that players meet their responsibilities are very informative and make as much sense here as anywhere else.  

[mark m]

The OP asked “what could be done?”

 

It’s hard to do something after the comp is finished. There might be a lot of bitching, but typically prizes are paid out. But there have been instances where the net scores were thought to be so egregious that the Committee returned the prize money portion of the entry fee and told them not to come back. It’s rare and most of the instances I’ve heard about are in team events. We’ve also had similar stories posted here in various threads.

[caniac6]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Not sure who you're suggesting should "tell him". *I* wouldn't. I'd report it to the Committee and let them handle it. That is what they're "paid" for (or "signed up" for ).

 

Ever tried telling someone they're breaking the Rules ???

 

Good grief, you'd be better off telling your wife her dress is too tight.

 

 

 

While I personally try, as you have done here, to give someone the benefit of the doubt when possible, this guy has been playing at the same handicap, with the same league, through a rather long period of time. AND wins.

 

And I've personally never heard of someone trying to "merge" GHIN postings. Merge implies 2 different GHIN numbers which of course should never happen.

 

I DO understand someone being out of season "at home" and not realizing they should be posting scores if they're playing in a place that is IN season but,,,,,,,,,

 

Frankly, I don't believe one needs to know much about handicaps to realize that if one's handicap wasn't changing AT ALL over the entire year, something's wrong somewhere.

 

Not to mention the Committee. Same for him/her/them. If this guy keeps playing at the same number for all of 2021, especially now that caps change every round, as a Committeeman/Handicap Chair, I'd certainly look into it.

 

This guy didn't just show up for a comp or 2 and run away afterwards.

 

The OP - "Just noticed that the guy who won our League POY for most $ won hasn't posted a score since 2019. Among other events, he won the 2 round Sr. Club Championship gross and our final event on Wednesday with a 66 net (as a 14+ index based on 2018-19 scores)"

 

This sounds like a failure by the Committee as much as anything else. Then again, if it's run by just 2 assistant pros I guess it's likely they have a lot of others things to do and don't pay much attention.

 

But now that I re-read the OP (as bolded above) and the guy not realizing his cap never changed, I'll stick to my previous opinion. The guy's a bagger.

Whoever is in charge of the league should tell him. The guy in charge owes that to everybody that has paid to participate. Being in charge means he has to do some tough things.

[Colin L]

To digress, posting scores can sometimes backfire on you.   The way I was playing earlier in this season, I badly need a couple more strokes.  Get some scores in, sez I, and  duly declared the next couple of bounce games that I was putting in a card.  Sod's law, I played rather well in both and knocked a couple of decimal points off my index. 🥴

[DaveLeeNC]

21 hours ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

Yes, I agree, but I'm still having trouble understanding why the WHS makes posting optional. (Assuming @Colin L is correct)

What's the point of having a unified system if it is up to each player/club if/when to post.

 

Put another way, why not just have players assign themselves a "valid" WHS index given that they have discretion on when to post scores.

 

I don't believe that it is quite correct (or at least it is misleading) to say that the WHS simply says that posting is optional. The handicap committee has discretion to post penalty scores (or possibly directly alter an index) simply for not posting a valid (for handicap purposes) score(s). However a handicap is 'valid under the rules' until some action is taken beyond just a simple observation made by an observer. 

 

dave

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, Colin L said:

It makes no difference to what I was saying  where I'm from or what I am!  The Rules of handicapping are the same here as they are with you and  the expectations of posting scores are the same although we are more limited in the types of scores we are allowed to return scores from.     I was commenting only on organised competitions such as the OP seems clearly to be talking about and the fact that you can't rely on the Rules of Handicapping alone to deal with someone winning one despite not having posted scores in ages: you have to write something into the rules of the competition wherever you are in the world.

 

All the other things being said about ensuring that players meet their responsibilities are very informative and make as much sense here as anywhere else.  

 

Not sure why you're in such a huff.

 

You cut out the remainder of my post and the only thing you left was regarding a "Terms of Competition" document.

 

You're the one who brought it up originally.

 

So allow me to post (again) the rest of my post, REGARDING a "Terms of Conditions" "document. "Here in the States it is my observation that much of this is pretty informal, especially amongst "groups/games", as opposed to more formally organized and local association registered "clubs" and THEIR tournaments."

 

e.g. The 2 different games I play in presently don't issue ANY "Terms of Competition". We know the game and we go out and play. The only thing we're told as we sign up is "LCP today" and/or "Cart paths only".

 

With my old club, a member club of the local USGA association, we sent a letter to every member listing ALL the local rules, how we ran comps, schedule of tournaments, etc.

 

On days we played we did the same as above, "Roll it over" or "Cart paths only".

 

If I wasn't clear initially I apologize. 👍

[nsxguy]

5 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Yes guys can wind up with multiple GHIN numbers if at multiple clubs.  As mentioned I have many friends that summer elsewhere and getting the accounts merged has been difficult.  So if he was posting all scores to one account and not getting merged it’s understandable.

  What is not understandable is how it took TWO FREAKIN’ YEARS of this guy winning to realize there was an issue.  Both on the players part and other members at the not updated club.  Did the player know there was an issue?  Seems likely to me.  
 

Sad but there are players that would take advantage of the situation presented.

 

Yeah, not noticing this for such a long time when the guy's winning all the time is pretty strange.

 

When I was going to SE Asia fairly regularly (2 mth trips at least 6 times until last March 11th) I played with the same golf bar most of the time. We had a Canadian there a fair bit. Always in (Northern Hemisphere) winters.

 

I played with him a few times. He had a reasonably good swing; that of a 7 or so IMO. But he didn't score as well as his swing would seem to dictate. He was a 14 there.

 

One day he wins the comp (Stableford) with 49 points. Whaaaaaaat ? 49 points ?!?!?!  Unbelievable.

 

So after the round we're hanging out at the bar and I'm talking to him. Turns out he had an official Canadian handicap of 5. He joined the local golf association and started a handicap there and from Day 1 there WAS a 14, mostly I guess because he'd already been off the golf course for at least 3 months.

 

I'm convinced he didn't know that he had to use a single cap and that even though it was OUT of season in Canada it was IN season in SE Asia but once it was discovered they moved him right down to where he should've been.

 

Not sure how the "Captain" of the bar let that happen as he was pretty competent about asking a newbie visitor's handicap.

 

Ahhhhhh well. The stakes there weren't nearly enough to get too excited about.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by nsxguy