Not Posting Scores

[TwistedSister]

2 hours ago, Colin L said:

To digress, posting scores can sometimes backfire on you.   The way I was playing earlier in this season, I badly need a couple more strokes.  Get some scores in, sez I, and  duly declared the next couple of bounce games that I was putting in a card.  Sod's law, I played rather well in both and knocked a couple of decimal points off my index. 🥴

Easy way to fix this. Post all legal scores.  NO exceptions.  That way you get a true Cap. 

[Colin L]

35 minutes ago, dhacker56 said:

Easy way to fix this. Post all legal scores.  NO exceptions.  That way you get a true Cap. 

Misunderstood again.  🙄  Must be my peculiarly tartan sense of humour.

 

I do.  NO exceptions. I have a true handicap.

[DaveLeeNC]

9 minutes ago, Colin L said:

Misunderstood again.  🙄  Must be my peculiarly tartan sense of humour.

 

I do.  NO exceptions. I have a true handicap.

 

Colin, as I read your earlier post in your golf world you have to pre-certify a round of golf (declare it postable prior to play) before it is a postable round. Is that the case? 

 

dave

[Colin L]

That's correct, Dave.

[SkiSchoolPro]

After a few more emails with the guy in question, it sounds like our league was using the guys out of state index which is where he posted his 2021 scores. He had surgery in 2020, missed that season and played poorly for a while after coming back which led the out of state index to be much higher than his unposted to index at our course at the beginning of our league, but it has since come down and the two indexes are now less than a shot apart.

 

Not sure when each ghin was established or why our pros used the out of state ghin rather than merging with the ghin he had with 2018-19 rounds from our course.

Edited September 5, 2021 by SkiSchoolPro

[rogolf]

3 hours ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

After a few more emails with the guy in question, it sounds like our league was using the guys out of state index which is where he posted his 2021 scores. He had surgery in 2020, missed that season and played poorly for a while after coming back which led the out of state index to be much higher than his unposted to index at our course at the beginning of our league, but it has since come down and the two indexes are now less than a shot apart.

 

Not sure when each ghin was established or why our pros used the out of state ghin rather than merging with the ghin he had with 2018-19 rounds from our course.

Please don't blame the "pros".  Your club's handicap committee (and the player) should be held responsible.

What is an "out of state handicap"?

Edited September 6, 2021 by rogolf

[Mcgeeno]

I have an add on question for you guys, my apologies for piggybacking on this thread.

 

I have never paid attention to net scores at our club. I contend for the gross and flirt with a scratch cap etc.

 

My best buddy let me know one guy who is a current 18 handicap has not posted a score in 2 months even though we have personally witnessed him shoot his 'career low' 77 and then a 75 in a tournament in the last 3 weeks...

 

Do you put that in manually? Bring it up with the club? Talk to the guy personally? Contest it with someone?

[Augster]

55 minutes ago, Mcgeeno said:

I have an add on question for you guys, my apologies for piggybacking on this thread.

 

I have never paid attention to net scores at our club. I contend for the gross and flirt with a scratch cap etc.

 

My best buddy let me know one guy who is a current 18 handicap has not posted a score in 2 months even though we have personally witnessed him shoot his 'career low' 77 and then a 75 in a tournament in the last 3 weeks...

 

Do you put that in manually? Bring it up with the club? Talk to the guy personally? Contest it with someone?

Let me tell you, exactly, how this goes and you can make your own decisions. 
 

Your first action is to approach the guy and ask why he hasn’t been posting scores and if he’s planning on posting his scores since you’ve seen him out playing and not posting. If you’re REALLY, REALLY lucky the guy is a moron, or just doesn’t understand technology, and doesn’t know how to post scores. Then you just have to educate the guy on posting. Simple. 
 

But, how it usually goes, you ask him why he’s not posting his scores, and the guy blows up at you. Yelling, screaming. You may be attacked. Just make sure you call him out in front of other people so there are plenty of witnesses to either, A. Deter him from hitting you, or B. Back up your story when you press charges after he strikes you. 
 

If being called out publicly won’t make him change his posting ways (it won’t BTW. The guy is a cheat. Leopards don’t change their spots), then you need to contact the handicap chair of the club to have this exact conversation again with the handicap cheat. 
 

Then, after he’s been put on notice by the handicap chair, you need to observe when the guy plays, and if he posts those scores. When he doesn’t post (he won’t), then you have to contact the handicap chair again with the new info. If you have the guy’s score, because you played with him or got a hold of his card, you can ask the chair to post the score. 
 

Eventually, the handicap chair gets sick of the complaints about the guy, and even more sick of having to post whatever scores are submitted to him for a guy who is obviously a cheat, then the chair, eventually, invalidates his handicap and kicks him out. 
 

It’s a process. I’ve gone through this process before and am currently going through the process with one of my friends that I’ve played hundreds of rounds with over the years. Just all of a sudden this year he decided to stop posting his good scores. Completely unacceptable. If you’re in my club, and you’re a handicap cheat, I’ll get you thrown out. Eventually. 
 

It’s a process. 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Augster

[SkiSchoolPro]

15 hours ago, rogolf said:

Please don't blame the "pros".  Your club's handicap committee (and the player) should be held responsible.

What is an "out of state handicap"?

The course is owned by the town. Our league fee is paid to the town and includes our ghin handicap. The town hires the Pros who work in the shop and run the league. Prizes are in the form of Pro Shop credit. All league rulings are made by the Pros. Usually, one of the assistant pros is on the first tee each week, gives us our scorecard (usually w/ hc), and tells us of any rules of the day (format, rolling the ball, etc.) As far as I know, there is not a separate handicap or tournament committee. If asked, I would assume the Pros would say they are the committee.

 

When I said "out of state handicap" I meant one established at a club located in the state of Florida- our course is in Colorado.

Edited September 6, 2021 by SkiSchoolPro

[rogolf]

8 hours ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

The course is owned by the town. Our league fee is paid to the town and includes our ghin handicap. The town hires the Pros who work in the shop and run the league. Prizes are in the form of Pro Shop credit. All league rulings are made by the Pros. Usually, one of the assistant pros is on the first tee each week, gives us our scorecard (usually w/ hc), and tells us of any rules of the day (format, rolling the ball, etc.) As far as I know, there is not a separate handicap or tournament committee. If asked, I would assume the Pros would say they are the committee.

 

When I said "out of state handicap" I meant one established at a club located in the state of Florida- our course is in Colorado.

AFAIK, there are no "state" handicaps;  GHIN handicaps include scores made from anywhere in the US that are made in a state's recognized playing season.

[tboh]

It def does happen ...  had 2 GHIN profiles bc my new club didn't search my existing profile

 

Was an ez fix w a direct email asking my St assoc to merge &/or shut one down 

 

I discovered it bc my "club" index differed frm my "pre-club" index

 

Unfortunately I wasn't winning net events like I was Cantlay (or maybe fortunately)

[DaveLeeNC]

9 hours ago, rogolf said:

AFAIK, there are no "state" handicaps;  GHIN handicaps include scores made from anywhere in the US that are made in a state's recognized playing season.

That was not the case back in the 2003 to around 2010'ish here in the US. At that time the Carolinas were 'Golfnet States' where Golfnet (NOT Ghin) managed your handicap database. Ghin did not know that you existed if you had an index in (for example) North or South Carolina. Some time in the around 2010 to 2012 the Carolinas changed to Ghin but at that time a few select other states were still on Golfnet. 

 

I think it was Michigan, but at that time there was one state that was Golfnet mostly but one corner of the state was Ghin. All this caused no end of problems for Golfnet golfers as many tournament organizers had no idea that not everyone with a valid USGA handicap was in Ghin. And if you played in North Carolina (for example) you had no choice. 

 

Golfnet still has an active website (I think that they WERE primarily a tournament software company) and it sounds like the duplicate databases got fixed with the WHS in 2020, based on my reading of the Golfnet website.  Does anyone know if this is correct? It was not the case a while back for sure. 

 

dave

Edited September 7, 2021 by DaveLeeNC

[DaveLeeNC]

9 hours ago, tboh said:

It def does happen ...  had 2 GHIN profiles bc my new club didn't search my existing profile

 

Was an ez fix w a direct email asking my St assoc to merge &/or shut one down 

 

I discovered it bc my "club" index differed frm my "pre-club" index

 

Unfortunately I wasn't winning net events like I was Cantlay (or maybe fortunately)

 

If you have a Ghin # and you move to another club and 'get a handicap', if you don't give them your current Ghin # you will almost certainly get a new Ghin #. You can't count on the new club to figure it out as there is way too high a chance of name duplication and they would have to do 50 searches on 50 different states (unless the club has search capabilities beyond what is exposed to users). 

 

dave

[davep043]

12 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

If you have a Ghin # and you move to another club and 'get a handicap', if you don't give them your current Ghin # you will almost certainly get a new Ghin #. You can't count on the new club to figure it out as there is way too high a chance of name duplication and they would have to do 50 searches on 50 different states (unless the club has search capabilities beyond what is exposed to users). 

 

dave

I agree with @DaveLeeNC, its really up to a player to inform his new club that he does have an existing handicap.  A competent handicap group (or golf pro, that's the guy who most commonly sets up a handicap for a new member) really should ask the question, but not all of them know enough or care enough to do things right.  Once you know where to look, its easy to combine records, and to change a player's home club from the previous place to the new one.

[mark m]

A good new member signup form helps:

 

Going from memory, besides name address, and phone, you should ask for birthdate (GHIN asks for it, as it’s helpful for competitions based on age), previous GHIN number (if any) and name of previous golf club (if any). If they do not have their old GHIN number, the name of club is helpful. I’ve called our golf association numerous times in past years to make this happen. They typically do it as you are on the phone with them. The harder cases happen when there has been a lapse in time and/or the playing ability of the golfer in question may be considerably different. You may decide to start them over with a new number.
 

Edited September 7, 2021 by mark m

[nsxguy]

On 9/6/2021 at 1:34 PM, SkiSchoolPro said:

The course is owned by the town. Our league fee is paid to the town and includes our ghin handicap. The town hires the Pros who work in the shop and run the league. Prizes are in the form of Pro Shop credit. All league rulings are made by the Pros. Usually, one of the assistant pros is on the first tee each week, gives us our scorecard (usually w/ hc), and tells us of any rules of the day (format, rolling the ball, etc.) As far as I know, there is not a separate handicap or tournament committee. If asked, I would assume the Pros would say they are the committee.

 

When I said "out of state handicap" I meant one established at a club located in the state of Florida- our course is in Colorado.

 

This is exactly what I was referring to previously.

 

The pros ARE the "committee".

 

I guess I'd wonder why the pros used the guy's out-of-state GHIN number instead of the one they opened up for him but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[tboh]

9 hours ago, mark m said:

A good new member signup form helps:

 

Going from memory, besides name address, and phone, you should ask for birthdate (GHIN asks for it, as it’s helpful for competitions based on age), previous GHIN number (if any) and name of previous golf club (if any). If they do not have their old GHIN number, the name of club is helpful. I’ve called our golf association numerous times in past years to make this happen. They typically do it as you are on the phone with them. The harder cases happen when there has been a lapse in time and/or the playing ability of the golfer in question may be considerably different. You may decide to start them over with a new number.
 

Agree w all of above ... 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Maybe I'm an odd ball (ok probably) but I check often with people I play with to confirm they've posted scores. I remind them to post. If they don't and we're playing together there's gonna be a problem right up front. 

[Krt22]

This sounds like a good time to ask the handicap chair to potentially post P scores. If you think he likely plays the same course during non mens club tournaments, they should be able to see every time he is on the tee sheet. If he was on the tee sheet and not playing solo, a P score should be posted for every time he didn't post, with the P score being their current lowest differential 

 

 

[nsxguy]

18 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

This sounds like a good time to ask the handicap chair to potentially post P scores. If you think he likely plays the same course during non mens club tournaments, they should be able to see every time he is on the tee sheet. If he was on the tee sheet and not playing solo, a P score should be posted for every time he didn't post, with the P score being their current lowest differential 

 

 

 

I remember some time ago that there were complaints at my club. People knew some guys were playing during the week and not posting scores.

 

We reminded everybody that all scores needed to be posted. Compliance still wasn't great so we posted a few penalty scores, their lowest differential. That stopped the no -posting immediately.

 

But the lowest differential, if it was actually the right/only thing to do back then, apparently isn't necessarily the same thing today.

 

Handicap Committee

Q. What is a Penalty Score? How and when is it applied?

 

A. A penalty score is a score posted at the discretion of the Handicap Committee for a player who does not post their score in a timely manner. To ensure that their score is included in the daily Playing Conditions Calculation and that their Handicap Index is up-to-date, players are expected to post their scores on the same day of play.

 

The Handicap Committee can decide the appropriate penalty score based on the intent of the player and can select a high or low penalty score equal to the highest or lowest Score Differential in the player’s scoring record. If discoverable, the Handicap Committee can also post the actual score.

 

The Handicap Committee does not need to provide the player with notice before posting a penalty score.

 

All penalty scores are designated with a “P.” (Rule 7.1b, Rules of Handicapping)

[Krt22]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

I remember some time ago that there were complaints at my club. People knew some guys were playing during the week and not posting scores.

 

We reminded everybody that all scores needed to be posted. Compliance still wasn't great so we posted a few penalty scores, their lowest differential. That stopped the no -posting immediately.

 

But the lowest differential, if it was actually the right/only thing to do back then, apparently isn't necessarily the same thing today.

 

Handicap Committee

Q. What is a Penalty Score? How and when is it applied?

 

A. A penalty score is a score posted at the discretion of the Handicap Committee for a player who does not post their score in a timely manner. To ensure that their score is included in the daily Playing Conditions Calculation and that their Handicap Index is up-to-date, players are expected to post their scores on the same day of play.

 

The Handicap Committee can decide the appropriate penalty score based on the intent of the player and can select a high or low penalty score equal to the highest or lowest Score Differential in the player’s scoring record. If discoverable, the Handicap Committee can also post the actual score.

 

The Handicap Committee does not need to provide the player with notice before posting a penalty score.

 

All penalty scores are designated with a “P.” (Rule 7.1b, Rules of Handicapping)

You are correct.  If someone is egregiously playing and not posting, I would expect the more harsh P score to be applied for at least a few of the rounds. My sandbagger friend was hit with one as he was leaving one club and going to another. He then asked his new HP to remove it (which they did). And now if he doesn't post promptly, they email him a friendly reminder to do so lol

 

I imagine having that P-score visible is enough to deter future indiscretions by serious baggers.

[davep043]

13 hours ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

Maybe I'm an odd ball (ok probably) but I check often with people I play with to confirm they've posted scores. I remind them to post. If they don't and we're playing together there's gonna be a problem right up front. 

I'm with you on this one.  In the USGA system, with no formal attestation process, this is our duty to one another.  Each individual needs to encourage (require) playing partners to post accurate scores.  And with the phone apps, its really easy to do over a pint while settling bets.

Edited September 8, 2021 by davep043