Obstruction in the teeing ground?

[Halebopp]

The head of rules was quick with his reply and confirmed the limitations only concern the tee-markers specific to the Teeing Area and agreed there are issues with how the rules have been written and their clarity. 🙂

[Newby]

7 hours ago, antip said:

I empathize with the observations Hale and Jimbo have made about 6.2b(4), I don't think the drafting is easy reading. But as multiple folk have noted, you are misunderstanding that second bullet point in particular. Here's what is not said in this sub-rule:

For any given player starting a stroke play round, there will be 18 separate Teeing Areas to be negotiated sequentially during the round. But each of them is only defined as a Teeing Area for a limited period, for the duration of your play on that specific hole. The other 17, and all the other tees on the course (a total of 71 in Colin's case) are simply teeing locations.

 

From the time you start a new hole, until you complete that hole, your specific two tee markers are subject to the defined restrictions on their movement whenever your ball is in that hole's Teeing Area. And while playing that hole, there are no restrictions on you moving every other tee marker on the course as they are movable obstructions.

 

Writing easily understood regulations is often challenging and particularly when you are dealing with a chameleon - which is what tees and tee markers are. A tee spends most of it's time as a teeing location and occasional time as a Teeing Area. A tee marker spends most of its time as a movable obstruction and occasional time as something other than a movable obstruction.

 

 

That is what I was trying to say.

[antip]

11 hours ago, Halebopp said:

 

Yes and nowhere in the rules can I see anything that separates the tee-markers marking the Teeing Area from all the other tee markers on the course the same way as the definition of Teeing Area separates it from the rest of the course and all the other similarly-marked areas.

 

The rule itself uses the plural form of Teeing Areas and tee-markers (the words each and any in the first and second bullets of rule 6.2b(4) respectively) when a singular form of Teeing Area would be sufficient if the tee-markers were defined as restrictively as the Teeing Area is or the RBs meant it to be that way. Such plural forms are also used in the Swedish and German versions of the rules ("varje tee", "jeden Abschlag", respectively) but the Finnish version talks singularly about "the teeing area" but later uses words that could imply tee-markers of several teeing locations.

 

Because of the differences in different languages, I sent the question to our head of rules as they might want to make a note of it for the 2023 version of the rules.

 

@antip "your specific two tee markers are subject to the defined restrictions on their movement whenever your ball is in that hole's Teeing Area"

 

This is the point I'm arguing. You state it is as a fact and (I assume) therefore say there's a misunderstanding. And like I've said, I would agree with you. But my argument is that the way the rule reads, there's no specific restriction on the rules regarding the specific tee-markers marking the Teeing Area. The only thing that would matter is whether or not the ball is being played from inside the Teeing Area. When inside, no tee-markers can be moved and, when outside, all tee-markers can be moved.

 

We'd be better off if the definition of Teeing Area included a note indicating that any reference to tee-markers refers to the specific pair of tee-markers defining the Teeing Area, or using a singular form of Teeing Area in the first bullet point of the rule. (Unless our understanding of the rule has actually been wrong.)

 

But I feel like I've invested way too much time on this minute detail concerning a scenario I'll likely never come across in real life. Although I did play with a lady who almost always teed off so that the tee-marker was in between her and the ball just last week.

We are spilling a lot of words so let me see if there is actually anything worth discussing relevant to playing the game.

Medley day is on. Here that means men and women in the same competition and playing together. So if the ladies tee markers are 10m in front of the mens markers, are you suggesting that when I hit first from the mens Teeing Area I cannot move the ladies tee marker that is directly on my preferred line of play and annoying me?

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, antip said:

We are spilling a lot of words so let me see if there is actually anything worth discussing relevant to playing the game.

Medley day is on. Here that means men and women in the same competition and playing together. So if the ladies tee markers are 10m in front of the mens markers, are you suggesting that when I hit first from the mens Teeing Area I cannot move the ladies tee marker that is directly on my preferred line of play and annoying me?

I hope not.

[Halebopp]

2 hours ago, antip said:

We are spilling a lot of words so let me see if there is actually anything worth discussing relevant to playing the game.

Medley day is on. Here that means men and women in the same competition and playing together. So if the ladies tee markers are 10m in front of the mens markers, are you suggesting that when I hit first from the mens Teeing Area I cannot move the ladies tee marker that is directly on my preferred line of play and annoying me?

 

 

The argument seems to be that the term tee-markers refers only to the tee-markers defining the Teeing Area. Similarly to Teeing Area being distinct from all other teeing locations but I have not managed to find such a definition in the rules. Quite the opposite really as rule 6.1 acknowledges the existence of wrong sets of tee-markers, like Colin also noted.

 

Rule 6.2b(4) says that tee-markers are set to define each Teeing Area (plural) and that any such tee-markers (plural again) cannot be moved. It sure reads like you couldn't move the wrong ones either.

 

But, that's not the case.

[Colin L]

56 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

 

The argument seems to be that the term tee-markers refers only to the tee-markers defining the Teeing Area. Similarly to Teeing Area being distinct from all other teeing locations but I have not managed to find such a definition in the rules. Quite the opposite really as rule 6.1 acknowledges the existence of wrong sets of tee-markers, like Colin also noted.

 

Rule 6.2b(4) says that tee-markers are set to define each Teeing Area (plural) and that any such tee-markers (plural again) cannot be moved. It sure reads like you couldn't move the wrong ones either.

 

But, that's not the case.

It doesn’t read that way as variously explained above.  With the greatest respect for your outstanding command of English, I do wonder if there’s some aspect of the wording that is catching you out. The explanations  are all there. 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Colin L

[Halebopp]

1 hour ago, Colin L said:

It doesn’t read that way as variously explained above.  With the greatest respect for your outstanding command of English, I do wonder if there’s some aspect of the wording that is catching you out. The explanations  are all there. 

 

Cheers, I'm putting this one to rest. It's written in the same way in German and Swedish rules but maybe it's a quirk in the Germanic languages I do not comprehend. It's also still my opinion that they all should be immovable obstructions. 🙂