Monte’s new Broom Force

[tm3]

On 9/11/2021 at 4:13 PM, fjk said:

Haven’t seen the long flat spot concept get disproven, but yes to the others. 
 

Any threads you can point to?

No, sorry.  There was an article in one of the slicks talking about it and they had multiple photo sequences and measurements to back up their claim that the "long flat spot" vs "short flat spot" didn't exist.

 

The promo for Broom Force is the first I've heard of it in a long time.  Maybe the disproven has now been disproven!

[kowalgolf]

I'm going to add the broom to my bag every time I play. Hope to see other brooms as I travel then I'll know who you are. At least it will garner some conversation and for sure a lot of laughs. But maybe someday I'll have the last laugh.

 

[Krt22]

19 minutes ago, tm3 said:

No, sorry.  There was an article in one of the slicks talking about it and they had multiple photo sequences and measurements to back up their claim that the "long flat spot" vs "short flat spot" didn't exist.

 

The promo for Broom Force is the first I've heard of it in a long time.  Maybe the disproven has now been disproven!

If you are going to take a relatively controversial take, at least have something to back it up. And if they used 2D photos as the basis of their assertions, it's not a good "study". Tyler Ferrell is a very biomechanics focused teacher who uses 3D motion capture, openly advocates for the long flat spot. In good players as the club head kicks out and down trough impact, the hands move up and in, creating this long flat spot. The only way you can take a uniformly thin dollar bill sized divot is if you have this long flat spot.

[Precis1on]

24 minutes ago, tm3 said:

No, sorry.  There was an article in one of the slicks talking about it and they had multiple photo sequences and measurements to back up their claim that the "long flat spot" vs "short flat spot" didn't exist.

 

The promo for Broom Force is the first I've heard of it in a long time.  Maybe the disproven has now been disproven!

 

I'll add that it's probably a good visual for those who shallow too late / fight to square the club at impact, maybe more so than a  true "long flat spot". In the video Monte demoed it in 2D, and if it was truly visible, I would guess that it would only be in 3D. 

[Paddy_2_Iron]

2 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

If you are going to take a relatively controversial take, at least have something to back it up. And if they used 2D photos as the basis of their assertions, it's not a good "study". Tyler Ferrell is a very biomechanics focused teacher who uses 3D motion capture, openly advocates for the long flat spot. In good players as the club head kicks out and down trough impact, the hands move up and in, creating this long flat spot. The only way you can take a uniformly thin dollar bill sized divot is if you have this long flat spot.

 

3 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

If you are going to take a relatively controversial take, at least have something to back it up. And if they used 2D photos as the basis of their assertions, it's not a good "study". Tyler Ferrell is a very biomechanics focused teacher who uses 3D motion capture, openly advocates for the long flat spot. In good players as the club head kicks out and down trough impact, the hands move up and in, creating this long flat spot. The only way you can take a uniformly thin dollar bill sized divot is if you have this long flat spot.

This is interesting.  I used the turn no cast and that helped me accomplish a longer flatter divot.   Perfect haha yeah right but…..    it’s helped me out 6 iron - GW immensely.    

 

 

 

[BdaGolfer]

Was it Adam Young who referenced the long flat-spot/ hands up and left in an article on parametric acceleration on his site a few years ago? 

[absoludicrous]

AMG has a new YouTube short video on a drill to shallow your swing. Very similar to drills 2 and 7. 

[Nickc]

11 minutes ago, absoludicrous said:

AMG has a new YouTube short video on a drill to shallow your swing. Very similar to drills 2 and 7. 

Post link ..thks

[sprcoop]

This is the latest "short" video on shallowing.  May be what he is talking about.

 

 

 

[Krt22]

4 hours ago, BdaGolfer said:

Was it Adam Young who referenced the long flat-spot/ hands up and left in an article on parametric acceleration on his site a few years ago? 

The  top tier instructors who have studied the 3D motion capture stuff will talk about the long flat spot (Monte obviously included)

[absoludicrous]

Sorry, here is the short.

 

 

[hafnia]

12 hours ago, BdaGolfer said:

Was it Adam Young who referenced the long flat-spot/ hands up and left in an article on parametric acceleration on his site a few years ago? 

 

 

https://www.adamyounggolf.com/low-point-and-parametric-acceleration/

[hafnia]

What I find really interesting about the Broom/NTC drill is that it clearly points out the missing instructions for things that have been taught for years....

 

example - the faldo preset drill.  On the principle I get it, easy to get into what feels a good position at the top but for me I always felt "the face is wide open - how do I hit the ball square?" -  the pete cowen axe drill... again....  opens the face through rotation of the left forearm - no mention of the correct move to get club shallow and face square.

 

The missing piece in all this is the supination move that the broom drills incorporate - the counter drill probably being the best to describe this.

 

It is as though alot of golf instruction is like buying a book with important pages riped out so the person has to buy a new book.

[Hilts1969]

 

I think the thread is getting into semantics and hard facts as opposed to feels in drills. But I would say how would anyone define a short flat spot and a long flat spot? At what point does a short flat spot become a shortish one? A medium one? A longish one or a plain long one?

 

Im at a slight disadvantage because I haven’t purchased the video yet(I have the ntc one) but will be doing after I have played tomorrow. But my general understanding of watching the Instagram post from Monte and a few others with the same general idea but explained slightly differently is this. 

 

Its is hard to get the clubface(broom) square so early using the wrist and arms by going OTT or dropping the right shoulder. Even practising with a stick I can see it dissect my right bicep very nicely.  If you put the broom in place as described and just open up the left hip you suddenly arrive at the ball ie brush the leaves/ground very nicely. 

 

My impression is at speed the club will have a shallower angle of attack but you certainly wont be dragging the club a long distance perilously close to the ground from somewhere near your right foot.  Keeping your left shoulder from rising early is still the part that can mess everything up. I know of 2 well known instructors who have videos on squaring the club by the right foot  or the feeling of swinging level. This is just better from a feel point of view and easier to practice.

 

strangely enough when I chip my 2 practise stokes involve brushing the ground  about 4 inches behind the ball. I then use that to hit the ball but open up my hip as the club gets close to that spot behind the ball.  I do the same with pitch shots but the flat spot is longer. Never thought about doing it on full shots.

 

If you take into account there  is only a small amount of acceleration in these shots and I don’t hit it fat(if I open up) then that gives me the confidence to go with this on full speed shots.

 

if we want to shallow the club and open up more then we will need to send the club head on a longer journey and the face needs to be squaring to stop us involuntarily stalling. 

 

Like a safe lock you need to line up the chambers before you can turn the handle, the handle being your body not the club. 

[TheDeanAbides]

4 minutes ago, hafnia said:

What I find really interesting about the Broom/NTC drill is that it clearly points out the missing instructions for things that have been taught for years....

 

example - the faldo preset drill.  On the principle I get it, easy to get into what feels a good position at the top but for me I always felt "the face is wide open - how do I hit the ball square?" -  the pete cowen axe drill... again....  opens the face through rotation of the left forearm - no mention of the correct move to get club shallow and face square.

 

The missing piece in all this is the supination move that the broom drills incorporate - the counter drill probably being the best to describe this.

 

It is as though alot of golf instruction is like buying a book with important pages riped out so the person has to buy a new book.

 

Absolutely. That's why we see so many great backswings on the range that go to crap in transition. A correct transition move is so counterintuitive that most ams struggle to let go of our preconceived ideas about how to get to the ball powerfully. It seems like a direct route with speed makes the most sense. 

 

To be told and shown that the club has to be essentially thrown away from you and behind you while you keep your back to the target blows minds.

[hafnia]

1 minute ago, TheDeanAbides said:

 

Absolutely. That's why we see so many great backswings on the range that go to crap in transition. A correct transition move is so counterintuitive that most ams struggle to let go of our preconceived ideas about how to get to the ball powerfully. It seems like a direct route with speed makes the most sense. 

 

To be told and shown that the club has to be essentially thrown away from you and behind you while you keep your back to the target blows minds.

 

the cynic in me feels as though many pros don't really want to give people the golden solution - 3D video and devices measuring movements etc are quickly exposing the many who are promoting nonsense.

 

it is going to be interesting to see how this can be implemented in childrens golf.  Funny enough, my 5 year old hits the ball like the slapshot drill due to the weight of the club, he lowers the club on the floor and turns hard through it

 

[TheDeanAbides]

4 minutes ago, hafnia said:

 

the cynic in me feels as though many pros don't really want to give people the golden solution - 3D video and devices measuring movements etc are quickly exposing the many who are promoting nonsense.

 

it is going to be interesting to see how this can be implemented in childrens golf.  Funny enough, my 5 year old hits the ball like the slapshot drill due to the weight of the club, he lowers the club on the floor and turns hard through it

 

I think it's more because, frankly, many pros are stuck in their ways or a bit rubbish. I've heard all sorts of clichés from pros on YouTube and in person that have been disproven for years.  

It doesn't help that some of the most popular books are written by touring pros who didn't know their own swing and just talked about what they felt like they did. Nowadays there's no excuse with launch monitors and 3D systems like GEARS. 

[kowalgolf]

2 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

I think the thread is getting into semantics and hard facts as opposed to feels in drills. But I would say how would anyone define a short flat spot and a long flat spot? At what point does a short flat spot become a shortish one? A medium one? A longish one or a plain long one?

 

Im at a slight disadvantage because I haven’t purchased the video yet(I have the ntc one) but will be doing after I have played tomorrow. But my general understanding of watching the Instagram post from Monte and a few others with the same general idea but explained slightly differently is this. 

 

Its is hard to get the clubface(broom) square so early using the wrist and arms by going OTT or dropping the right shoulder. Even practising with a stick I can see it dissect my right bicep very nicely.  If you put the broom in place as described and just open up the left hip you suddenly arrive at the ball ie brush the leaves/ground very nicely. 

 

My impression is at speed the club will have a shallower angle of attack but you certainly wont be dragging the club a long distance perilously close to the ground from somewhere near your right foot.  Keeping your left shoulder from rising early is still the part that can mess everything up. I know of 2 well known instructors who have videos on squaring the club by the right foot  or the feeling of swinging level. This is just better from a feel point of view and easier to practice.

 

strangely enough when I chip my 2 practise stokes involve brushing the ground  about 4 inches behind the ball. I then use that to hit the ball but open up my hip as the club gets close to that spot behind the ball.  I do the same with pitch shots but the flat spot is longer. Never thought about doing it on full shots.

 

If you take into account there  is only a small amount of acceleration in these shots and I don’t hit it fat(if I open up) then that gives me the confidence to go with this on full speed shots.

 

if we want to shallow the club and open up more then we will need to send the club head on a longer journey and the face needs to be squaring to stop us involuntarily stalling. 

 

Like a safe lock you need to line up the chambers before you can turn the handle, the handle being your body not the club. 

I'm seeing the same as you on chipping. Clubhead inside ball 4-6 inches behind ball and sweep the dirt. It works and I would like to know why. Can't trust it.

 

[GolfTurkey]

Just bought this and watched the videos. Looks promising for my tendency to fire the hips too hard laterally leaving the arms behind which then causes the early right tilt and club closing too fast. 
 

Only problem is that It involves lots of sucky looking drills. Back as a teenager I got good at another sport via endless hours of nasty drills but these days I have  the mental discipline of a gnat with ADHD…must knuckle down and grit my teeth through it!

[Hilts1969]

1 hour ago, kowalgolf said:

I'm seeing the same as you on chipping. Clubhead inside ball 4-6 inches behind ball and sweep the dirt. It works and I would like to know why. Can't trust it.

 

 

Put the club a few inches behind turn your left hip that gets the club to the ball.

 

At some some point you will catch it a bit heavy and you will blame it on the release of the club rather than the true culprit ie you forgot to rotate early enough or at all.

 

I make sure I face the target after every chip and pitch 

[tm3]

20 hours ago, Krt22 said:

If you are going to take a relatively controversial take, at least have something to back it up. And if they used 2D photos as the basis of their assertions, it's not a good "study". Tyler Ferrell is a very biomechanics focused teacher who uses 3D motion capture, openly advocates for the long flat spot. In good players as the club head kicks out and down trough impact, the hands move up and in, creating this long flat spot. The only way you can take a uniformly thin dollar bill sized divot is if you have this long flat spot.

Well if "the long flat spot concept is wrong" is false it certainly would not be the first time (or, I'm sure, the last) that a golf magazine (or a golf instructor, or a golf forum) has promulgated information that is incorrect.

 

Ferrell's analysis sounds interesting.  Where's the link?

[me05501]

These discussions veer into the weeds so easily! 

 

I've watched through all the videos a couple of times. What Monte really seems to be emphasizing is that too many players have a V-shaped swing when they'd benefit from more of a U-shaped swing.

 

He mentions a long flat spot too, but both that and the idea of a U-shape at the bottom of the swing seem to be at least partially conceptual, meant to give the student the feel or goal that helps them avoid anything similar to a V-shaped pattern at the bottom. 

 

I don't think anyone is advocating for having the club head close to the ground for a couple of feet versus a couple of inches, but a lot of us can benefit from the *concept* of having the club head feel closer to the bottom of the arc for longer. 

 

In one of his other series Monte does a whole segment on how most people should end up in the middle of any range of possibilities. Depth vs. width, body vs. arms, turning vs. shifting, closer to ball vs. further from it, etc etc etc. The extremes of any range of motion can be explored through drills and help us feel where we need to go, but trying to actually play from extreme positions is a dead end. 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by me05501

[Hilts1969]

1 hour ago, me05501 said:

These discussions veer into the weeds so easily! 

 

I've watched through all the videos a couple of times. What Monte really seems to be emphasizing is that too many players have a V-shaped swing when they'd benefit from more of a U-shaped swing.

 

He mentions a long flat spot too, but both that and the idea of a U-shape at the bottom of the swing seem to be at least partially conceptual, meant to give the student the feel or goal that helps them avoid anything similar to a V-shaped pattern at the bottom. 

 

I don't think anyone is advocating for having the club head close to the ground for a couple of feet versus a couple of inches, but a lot of us can benefit from the *concept* of having the club head feel closer to the bottom of the arc for longer. 

 

In one of his other series Monte does a whole segment on how most people should end up in the middle of any range of possibilities. Depth vs. width, body vs. arms, turning vs. shifting, closer to ball vs. further from it, etc etc etc. The extremes of any range of motion can be explored through drills and help us feel where we need to go, but trying to actually play from extreme positions is a dead end. 

 

 

 

That's what I said 

[kowalgolf]

2 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

Put the club a few inches behind turn your left hip that gets the club to the ball.

 

At some some point you will catch it a bit heavy and you will blame it on the release of the club rather than the true culprit ie you forgot to rotate early enough or at all.

 

I make sure I face the target after every chip and pitch 

That last sentence says it all and also accelerate past the ball which I don't do yet. I decel.

[kowalgolf]

7 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

That's what I said 

I agree. Been playing 60 yrs. Wish I could go back. Trevino even said walking off a tee box, you know the swing is from here to here a big flat U.

[kowalgolf]

2 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

Just bought this and watched the videos. Looks promising for my tendency to fire the hips too hard laterally leaving the arms behind which then causes the early right tilt and club closing too fast. 
 

Only problem is that It involves lots of sucky looking drills. Back as a teenager I got good at another sport via endless hours of nasty drills but these days I have  the mental discipline of a gnat with ADHD…must knuckle down and grit my teeth through it!

New motor pattern if you do the drills right. Rinse and repeat. Got to find your root or roots causes. I start with the plastic bottle. Good drill.

[TheDeanAbides]

27 minutes ago, kowalgolf said:

I agree. Been playing 60 yrs. Wish I could go back. Trevino even said walking off a tee box, you know the swing is from here to here a big flat U.

Nobody, except maybe Moe, ever did that better. 

[Nickc]

Even after reading thread a little undecided whether to buy video to use the drills (though have bought one of those traditional brooms in anticipation)

Could someone list the top 5 (or more if want to) reasons why I should try them.,*

 

(Note already incorporate a lot of AMG stuff + use the Rose drill )

 

*Simple fear of new drills dragging me down a sideways rabbit hole!

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by Nickc
* note

[Krt22]

6 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

I think the thread is getting into semantics and hard facts as opposed to feels in drills. But I would say how would anyone define a short flat spot and a long flat spot? At what point does a short flat spot become a shortish one? A medium one? A longish one or a plain long one?

 

Im at a slight disadvantage because I haven’t purchased the video yet(I have the ntc one) but will be doing after I have played tomorrow. But my general understanding of watching the Instagram post from Monte and a few others with the same general idea but explained slightly differently is this. 

 

I'm not sure how you can have an opinion, when you have not even watched the video lol. Monte is all about the arms and body syncing and working correctly, I would say the NTC is focused more on the arms and broom force is more focused on the body. But yes, same general idea, just two different areas of focus. Both equally important but depending on your tendencies, one may be more beneficial than the other. Watching both really cements the core of the pattern as a whole

 

I have no issues with the semantics or the hard facts. The beauty of Monte's teaching approach is that it is built 100% on hard facts and tangible data, but conveyed in an array of simple to understand ideas/feels such that it can be effective for a large distribution of students. If you make an effort to understand the core principles behind the teaching, it only supplements the material further. The point isn't to try to measure the length of a the flat spot, it's knowing that if your arms and body move correctly together, the long flat spot will be the end result.

[johnrobison]

His approach is also built on his own personal understanding of the swing and implementation of ideas and feels. I know quite a few instructors and I don't know any who spend as much time on the range as Monte does working it out. He can come up with half a dozen different feels and intents for the same result, which allows him to convey that to the player however it resonates best with them. Many instructors spout out ideas without having a personal understanding of what it feels like to try to do it or how it even changes the dynamics. Monte is his own laboratory and his students benefit from his research.