OEM vs DTC

[nev adams]

Looking to get fit for irons before next season and there are some DTC brands that I'd love to try. Namely New Level. I really want to see how the PF-4 (Lefty) compares to say a ZX-7 or P770 etc. I cant use their Demo program as I'm Canadian so I was hoping someone here has tried some of these head to head. Curious about forgiveness and overall playability compared to OEM. Anyone have infor?

[TallGuy90]

I would put the Maltby TS1s against anything. 

[circa3182]

Sub 70 699/699 Pro are such a solid option. 

[lefthack]

5 minutes ago, TallGuy90 said:

I would put the Maltby TS1s against anything. 

 

And yet it doesn't come in lefty, so you can't. 

[lefthack]

I really want to try the lefty Takomo 101's, but I haven't sold my CB's yet. 🤣

[TallGuy90]

16 minutes ago, lefthack said:

 

And yet it doesn't come in lefty, so you can't. 

Ah I missed that. Hey the STI2s are dynamite 

[fixurpitch]

I play on the opposite side of the ball, but here’s my experience. I played 585 for two seasons. Demoed the 785 and ZX7. I own the PF-1 / PF-2 combo. 
 

The feel is solidly as good in the PF as in either 7 series. All are excellent. I experienced better dispersion with the PF than the 7s. The wide sole in the 585 didn’t help me. The narrower PF sole seems to give more consistent results. And the worn leading edge is a nice feature. Hope that helps. 

[lefthack]

44 minutes ago, TallGuy90 said:

Ah I missed that. Hey the STI2s are dynamite 

 

I have a pair of Maltby wedges that have been on backorder for about 2 months now. Running out of lefty gear is rare.

[B.Easy]

I play the PF-2's and my son plays the ZX7's.  They are quite different in my opinion.  The ZX7's don't spin as much, launch a bit higher and seem very tailored for a steeper attack, as evidenced by the sole design that prevent digging.  For me, they are almost a full club longer, because of the lower spin.  My son was painstakingly fitted and is pretty steep, so they work for him.  He's on scholarship playing college golf and a +1 hcp.  I'm a 6 that's nearly as good of a ball striker as he is with my irons, but we have very different AOA's.  I would never choose the ZX7's (although they are sweet) and he would not enjoy the PF-2's as much as I do. I believe the NL PF-1,2,4 sole designs will fit a wider array of players. Leading edge, sole width, and bounce are middle of the pack.  For my son's steepish swing, there may not be a better iron in existence than the ZX-7

 

Just some thoughts that probably aren't helpful, but are my thoughts nonetheless. 

[dekez]

It's interesting that the DTC companies all focus on irons for better players - the players distance category and better.  

 

Is it because it's easier / cheaper to make those irons from forging house blanks?  Or are the market demographics for those that would be interested skewed towards single digit handicaps and better?  Maybe both.

[phizzy30]

Don't hesitate to pull the trigger.  I have the 623-M in my bag and they are money.  I have tested and or owned many iron set from TM, Cally, Srixon, Titleist, Mizuno and some JDM brands throughout the years, and New Level's offerings are right there in terms of performance and quality.  Feel wise, I would have to say that they're not quite as soft as some of the JDM stuff, but still on the softer side and for the price can't be beat.  I have one cousin that plays the same irons I do and another that got a set of PF-2's a couple months back.  They tried my set and got theirs.  They love theirs as well. 

[driveandputtmachine]

18 minutes ago, dekez said:

It's interesting that the DTC companies all focus on irons for better players - the players distance category and better.  

 

Is it because it's easier / cheaper to make those irons from forging house blanks?  Or are the market demographics for those that would be interested skewed towards single digit handicaps and better?  Maybe both.

Well you can absolutely use blanks when forging overseas.  Designing your own forging dies and having them made from scratch is VERY EXPENSIVE for a DTC brand.  However designing and paying for the casting is much cheaper, and there are open castings with those facilities overseas as well.

 

When I owned my putter company I looked into wedges.  First thought since I milled all my putters was to do a milled wedge.  That is super duper expensive whether from a metal blank(holy sh!t expensive) or milling a large rough forging (extremely expensive).  The main reason is the use of a five axis milling machine.  Time on a five axis machine is way higher than two or three axis.  Then I looked at designing my own die for forging, wow.  That was eye opening.  Next cheapest was casting my own design, then using an open source forging, then open source casting. 

 

Open source whether casting or forging is always the cheapest option, and with the multiple pressings in a forging(hit multiple times to achieve finalish shape) you can pull the head out in between steps once it reaches a certain pressure and have the head hand or machine ground in a much cheaper jig to achieve your final shape.  This is why forgings are chosen, you can have a good design, pull it out with still quite a bit of weight still on the head and have it ground/finished with a cheaper jig setup to differentiate your brand (so it doesn't look exactly like another companies head) much cheaper than you can with any other manufacturing process.

[dekez]

6 minutes ago, driveandputtmachine said:

Well you can absolutely use blanks when forging overseas.  Designing your own forging dies and having them made from scratch is VERY EXPENSIVE for a DTC brand.  However designing and paying for the casting is much cheaper, and there are open castings with those facilities overseas as well.

 

When I owned my putter company I looked into wedges.  First thought since I milled all my putters was to do a milled wedge.  That is super duper expensive whether from a metal blank(holy sh!t expensive) or milling a large rough forging (extremely expensive).  The main reason is the use of a five axis milling machine.  Time on a five axis machine is way higher than two or three axis.  Then I looked at designing my own die for forging, wow.  That was eye opening.  Next cheapest was casting my own design, then using an open source forging, then open source casting. 

 

Open source whether casting or forging is always the cheapest option, and with the multiple pressings in a forging(hit multiple times to achieve finalish shape) you can pull the head out in between steps once it reaches a certain pressure and have the head hand or machine ground in a much cheaper jig to achieve your final shape.  This is why forgings are chosen, you can have a good design, pull it out with still quite a bit of weight still on the head and have it ground/finished with a cheaper jig setup to differentiate your brand (so it doesn't look exactly like another companies head) much cheaper than you can with any other manufacturing process.

Thank you. Very enlightening.

[RolandofGilead]

2 hours ago, dekez said:

It's interesting that the DTC companies all focus on irons for better players - the players distance category and better.  

 

Is it because it's easier / cheaper to make those irons from forging house blanks?  Or are the market demographics for those that would be interested skewed towards single digit handicaps and better?  Maybe both.

Is this even true? New Level is between GI releases right now but Hogan has the Edge line, Sub70 has the 739, and Maltby has several GI models.

[dekez]

2 minutes ago, RolandofGilead said:

Is this even true? New Level is between GI releases right now but Hogan has the Edge line, Sub70 has the 739, and Maltby has several GI models.

I didnt consider Maltby.  But like you said, Sub70 has ONE GI model compared to how many irons for better players?  New Level has none.  Takomo none.  Hogan edge I'm not sure.

[RolandofGilead]

4 minutes ago, dekez said:

I didnt consider Maltby.  But like you said, Sub70 has ONE GI model compared to how many irons for better players?  New Level has none.  Takomo none.  Hogan edge I'm not sure.

Gotcha. Yeah I wonder if the “off the beaten path” nature of DTC brands self-selects for above average and/or aspirational players. That would limit GI interest among their target audience.

[GWfool]

14 hours ago, nev adams said:

Looking to get fit for irons before next season and there are some DTC brands that I'd love to try. Namely New Level. I really want to see how the PF-4 (Lefty) compares to say a ZX-7 or P770 etc. I cant use their Demo program as I'm Canadian so I was hoping someone here has tried some of these head to head. Curious about forgiveness and overall playability compared to OEM. Anyone have infor?

I can't compare the PF series, but I have a set of the 623Ms and a set of the z745s. To me, they play very. comparably; doesn't hurt that they are in the same shaft. I actually find the 623M to be slightly longer and I think a smidge more forgiving. Though, I think the feel with the z745s is slightly better.

[TallGuy90]

1 hour ago, dekez said:

I didnt consider Maltby.  But like you said, Sub70 has ONE GI model compared to how many irons for better players?  New Level has none.  Takomo none.  Hogan edge I'm not sure.

 

1 hour ago, RolandofGilead said:

Is this even true? New Level is between GI releases right now but Hogan has the Edge line, Sub70 has the 739, and Maltby has several GI models.

SUB70 got rid of the 739. They try to gear people to the 699

 

my guesses is they are selling distance. 

[vandyfan]

Yeah I just checked the New Level site and it looks like they have really slimmed down their irons offerings. I would have said the MODB-1 was kind of a game improvement iron but those are now several months gone from inventory. 

[sociojeje]

Didn't try pf4. (nor 2). but PF-4 looks a bit more toward player's iron than zx7 and p770. PF4 looks like somewhere between blade and zx7 or p770. I'm waiting for their new irons! they are coming soon! 

[circa3182]

Sub 70 has the 799 now for game improvement. But the 699 is extremely forgiving as well. 
 

My guess is that newer golfers aren’t spending money on new clubs as much and if they do they’re suckers for marketing which goes against DTC. It’s the better players who recognize the Archer is more important than the Arrow and are willing to go DTC

Edited September 9, 2021 by circa3182

[nev adams]

2 hours ago, sociojeje said:

Didn't try pf4. (nor 2). but PF-4 looks a bit more toward player's iron than zx7 and p770. PF4 looks like somewhere between blade and zx7 or p770. I'm waiting for their new irons! they are coming soon! 

That's pretty much what I think as well. Wish I could do the demo program, as it stands now the only way to try one is to buy an iron.

[Springsteennut]

I bought the 739s from Sub 70 when they first started selling. I took the demos that I had to the PGA SS and they let me compare them to other GI irons I was interested in. The numbers were so similar that it made no sense to pay $300 more for something that performed the same. My son has the 699s and they are really forgiving like someone posted earlier 

[JahSteve]

On 9/9/2021 at 9:20 AM, dekez said:

I didnt consider Maltby.  But like you said, Sub70 has ONE GI model compared to how many irons for better players?  New Level has none.  Takomo none.  Hogan edge I'm not sure.

i have the LH Hogan edge (2018 model?) and love them. I stink and am inconsistent but the hogans do not punish me on bad shots... GI for sure. They also have a demo program ( they send you a club to check out for like 14 days for $20 or so. 

I got fitted for apex '21's but ended up with the hogans. Price was a deciding factor. 

Edited October 8, 2021 by JahSteve