Fourball match with incorrect card

[pingfool]

Season long 64 Team Member-Member Match play semifinals

 

handicaps are 3 7 13 14. 80% off low man

scorecard done by PGA Head Professional prepared incorrectly. Not discovered until 13th hole.

 

tough luck should have been noticed on first tee?

[davep043]

15 minutes ago, pingfool said:

Season long 64 Team Member-Member Match play semifinals

 

handicaps are 3 7 13 14. 80% off low man

scorecard done by PGA Head Professional prepared incorrectly. Not discovered until 13th hole.

 

tough luck should have been noticed on first tee?

What was wrong?  If you read the rules, Section 3.2, it is the responsibility of the players to provide accurate handicaps and to know where the strokes fall.  The players should have verified it on the first tee.  If someone had a handicap on the card that was higher than it should have been, and didn't correct it, 3.2c(1) suggests that player should have been DQ.

[Colin L]

I don't get this.  What has a scorecard got to do with matchplay other than being a useful aide-memoire for the stroke index and, if your memory is anything like mine, a handy place to keep a note of the state of the match?

 

A player would be disqualified only if he declared a wrong handicap and that resulted in his receiving more strokes than he should have had as Dave has said.  What the pro or anyone else wrote on a card has no bearing on the matter at all.

 

Also,  your playing handicap in a fourball is the difference between 90% of your course handicap and that of the lowest handicapped player.

 

 

Edited September 12, 2021 by Colin L

[rogolf]

58 minutes ago, Colin L said:

I don't get this.  What has a scorecard got to do with matchplay other than being a useful aide-memoire for the stroke index and, if your memory is anything like mine, a handy place to keep a note of the state of the match?

 

A player would be disqualified only if he declared a wrong handicap and that resulted in his receiving more strokes than he should have had as Dave has said.  What the pro or anyone else wrote on a card has no bearing on the matter at all.

 

Also,  your playing handicap in a fourball is the difference between 90% of your course handicap and that of the lowest handicapped player.

 

 

Agree that it is the players' responsibility regarding handicap.  The professional (probably part of the Committee) has no responsibility.

I'm presuming that the OP is in the US, where handicap allowances are only recommendations and the Committee in charge can accept the recommendation or do what it considers best. 😀

Edited September 12, 2021 by rogolf

[jvincent]

I'm assuming the pro provided a scorecard which showed where each player received a stroke.

 

If there was a mistake in that then somebody could have conceded/lost a hole thinking their opponent was getting a stroke when if fact they weren't.

 

I'm sure most people just assume the dots on the scorecard are correctly applied and don't scrutinize it closely.

[rogolf]

31 minutes ago, jvincent said:

I'm assuming the pro provided a scorecard which showed where each player received a stroke.

 

If there was a mistake in that then somebody could have conceded/lost a hole thinking their opponent was getting a stroke when if fact they weren't.

 

I'm sure most people just assume the dots on the scorecard are correctly applied and don't scrutinize it closely.

Potentially to their own detriment.  It seems that Committees are just getting too much involved in assuming the players' responsibility, such as by providing a scorecard.  First off (as Colin noted), there is no scorecard required in match play.  Secondly, the Committee should just inform the players the handicap allowance and how to use it.  Then get out of the kitchen and leave it to the players.  If the players foul anything up, the Committee will use the Rules, which are very straightforward, to sort it out.

[Colin L]

5 hours ago, rogolf said:

I'm presuming that the OP is in the US, where handicap allowances are only recommendations and the Committee in charge can accept the recommendation or do what it considers best. 😀

I was forgetting that.

 

 

[Colin L]

6 hours ago, Colin L said:

.......A player would be disqualified only if he declared a wrong handicap and that resulted in his receiving more strokes than he should have had .......

 

 

To be more accurate, the side would be disqualified if one of the players declared too high a handicap and got more strokes than he should.

[pingfool]

On 9/12/2021 at 8:29 PM, jvincent said:

I'm assuming the pro provided a scorecard which showed where each player received a stroke.

 

If there was a mistake in that then somebody could have conceded/lost a hole thinking their opponent was getting a stroke when if fact they weren't.

 

I'm sure most people just assume the dots on the scorecard are correctly applied and don't scrutinize it closely.

^
this is pretty much exactly what happened. Golf professional prepared card (he runs all aspects of tournament) incorrectly. Did not compute 80% and had too many strokes on the card.  Was not discovered until the team that was 3down checked the card on 13

 

match finished 3+2. Losing team looked up rule and now understands responsibility to verify card on 1st tee

[rogolf]

25 minutes ago, pingfool said:

^
this is pretty much exactly what happened. Golf professional prepared card (he runs all aspects of tournament) incorrectly. Did not compute 80% and had too many strokes on the card.  Was not discovered until the team that was 3down checked the card on 13

 

match finished 3+2. Losing team looked up rule and now understands responsibility to verify card on 1st tee

And hopefully the professional will no longer be performing player responsibilities?

[pingfool]

21 minutes ago, rogolf said:

And hopefully the professional will no longer be performing player responsibilities?

the way this seasons tournaments have gone - he will be lucky to perform any professional responsibilities in the current situation 

 

help me to understand why you feel the golf professional should not be preparing scorecards for member tournaments?

 

 

[Augster]

13 minutes ago, pingfool said:

the way this seasons tournaments have gone - he will be lucky to perform any professional responsibilities in the current situation 

 

help me to understand why you feel the golf professional should not be preparing scorecards for member tournaments?

 

 

Not for match play. 
 

Full field tournaments are fine. 
 

He can set up the brackets for match play, and make sure everyone plays their matches on time, and get tee times for teams. But that’s about it for match play. 
 

Matches are played by the players involved. If they can’t figure out their own caps it’s on them. There isn’t a field to protect. It’s every player’s responsibility in match play to know how many strokes they get and which holes they stroke on. 
 

If they screw it up, it’s totally on them. Blaming the pro is pretty weak. 

[sui generis]

54 minutes ago, pingfool said:

the way this seasons tournaments have gone - he will be lucky to perform any professional responsibilities in the current situation 

 

help me to understand why you feel the golf professional should not be preparing scorecards for member tournaments?

 

 

 

I believe Golf Genius is capable of performing the task of preparing dotted scorecards for match play. Of course, garbage in = garbage out. Though, no matter what, the players are solely responsible. 😀

[mark m]

The GHIN app on smart phone is helpful as well. Use the “Handicap Calculator”, import the players in question, choose the correct course and tees, and allowance percentage.

 

In general, many members tend to over rely on the pro. We all appreciate our club pros and assistant pros, but they can make mistakes. I had one head pro tell me a “true” alternate shot format - and who hit the next tee shot - was determined by who holed out on the previous hole. When the rule in the book says one player tees off on odd numbered holes, and the other on even. (Is the rule book not true?) Stuff like the OP’s story happens from time to time. Just keep working to get it right. The guys here help us get things corrected. 

[pingfool]

13 hours ago, Augster said:

Not for match play. 
 

Full field tournaments are fine. 
 

He can set up the brackets for match play, and make sure everyone plays their matches on time, and get tee times for teams. But that’s about it for match play. 
 

Matches are played by the players involved. If they can’t figure out their own caps it’s on them. There isn’t a field to protect. It’s every player’s responsibility in match play to know how many strokes they get and which holes they stroke on. 
 

If they screw it up, it’s totally on them. Blaming the pro is pretty weak. 

so pro prepares the card incorrectly. Members don’t catch it. Blaming the pro is weak?

 

this not about what should happen - but what did happen

[david.c.w]

13 hours ago, Augster said:

Not for match play. 
 

Full field tournaments are fine. 
 

He can set up the brackets for match play, and make sure everyone plays their matches on time, and get tee times for teams. But that’s about it for match play. 
 

Matches are played by the players involved. If they can’t figure out their own caps it’s on them. There isn’t a field to protect. It’s every player’s responsibility in match play to know how many strokes they get and which holes they stroke on. 

 

disclaimer:  US private country club member here.

 

The responsibility of this being on the player is news to me (and I would say most of the members of my club).  Our pros create dotted scorecards for our summer long match play bracket, our summer long fourball bracket, our member/guest (5 nine hole better ball matches, 10 flights), and every other Saturday tournament we have.  I am not sure they do this because they think they need to, or if they are treating it as a service.  I guess you could consider the MG and tourneys to be full field, but they do this for the match play brackets without players asking.

 

Right or wrong, I would consider the pros to be the committee and would accept whatever they tell me/give me as correct.  Now being a generally curious person I always check my upcoming opponent in GHIN before our match to see what I should be getting or giving, and will confirm that on the scorecard.  However not everyone does this and will show up for a match in the late afternoon on a Friday after a hellish week at work, not thinking or being able to check and will go from trunk to tee.  Is that an excuse?  No, but it is the reality.

[mark m]

The daily handicap updates can complicate a season long match play competition. A committee sometimes chooses a handicap in effect on a specific date - a day or two in advance of a stroke play tournament - in order to prepare the pairings/documents/scorecards/etc. But a somewhat random match on Saturday morning can be problematic. Especially if they played on Friday afternoon. (What if a opponent had a good round on Friday and didn’t post?) The rules should be set out clearly in advance. But it’s on the player to verify his handicap in match play. 

Edited September 16, 2021 by mark m

[2bGood]

1 hour ago, pingfool said:

so pro prepares the card incorrectly. Members don’t catch it. Blaming the pro is weak?

 

this not about what should happen - but what did happen

I am not sure I would call it 'weak' - but the player is the one responsible under the rules. To me it is very similar to having a marker put the wrong score down for a hole, it is unfortunate, but it is the players responsibility to assure it is correct. 

 

Under the rules of golf, the pro has no responsibility but under the contract of his employment - he screwed up. 

 

It sounds like one of the sides should have been DQ in this match. Did that occur?

[Purple Toupee]

18 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

I am not sure I would call it 'weak' - but the player is the one responsible under the rules. To me it is very similar to having a marker put the wrong score down for a hole, it is unfortunate, but it is the players responsibility to assure it is correct. 

 

Under the rules of golf, the pro has no responsibility but under the contract of his employment - he screwed up. 

 

It sounds like one of the sides should have been DQ in this match. Did that occur?

Why would one side be DQ?

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, Purple Toupee said:

Why would one side be DQ?

Already explained above.  

 

If one of the  players declared a handicap higher than he should have and as a result received more strokes than he should have, his side is disqualified.  I don't think we know if this was the case in the OP's situation.

[deadsolid...shank]

I’m surprised that so many are surprised by the fact that a card is handed out with the stroke holes marked. I’ve never played anywhere where it wasn’t done this way. 
 

I normally check, but just to see where everyone pops. Every course and pro uses different percentages, so I don’t know how many each person should be getting. Just want to know where the strokes fall. 
 

It probably actually happens a lot more than people think. They never know something was incorrect. Have to remember, the vast majority out there have no idea how handicaps work, so they also don’t know how they get applied. 

[Purple Toupee]

1 hour ago, Colin L said:

Already explained above.  

 

If one of the  players declared a handicap higher than he should have and as a result received more strokes than he should have, his side is disqualified.  I don't think we know if this was the case in the OP's situation.

But the OP said that the Pro forgot to take 80% of the handicaps.  So if it’s a DQ, wouldn’t it have to apply to both sides?  All four of those handicaps should have been reduced.

[Halebopp]

4 hours ago, mark m said:

The daily handicap updates can complicate a season long match play competition. A committee sometimes chooses a handicap in effect on a specific date - a day or two in advance of a stroke play tournament - in order to prepare the pairings/documents/scorecards/etc. But a somewhat random match on Saturday morning can be problematic. Especially if they played on Friday afternoon. (What if a opponent had a good round on Friday and didn’t post?) The rules should be set out clearly in advance. But it’s on the player to verify his handicap in match play. 

 

Things can get more difficult when cheaters participate in tournaments but that has nothing to do with the handicap system. If a player doesn't post a score he/she was supposed to and therefore declares a handicap that's too high and gets more strokes than he/she should, the player is disqualified. The club should also look into further disciplinary actions against such cheaters.

[2bGood]

44 minutes ago, Purple Toupee said:

But the OP said that the Pro forgot to take 80% of the handicaps.  So if it’s a DQ, wouldn’t it have to apply to both sides?  All four of those handicaps should have been reduced.

Good call. In this scenario it would be reasonable to assume that three of the four players declared a handicap higher than they should have and both sides would be DQ'd. 

 

3=0

7=3 but declared 4

13=8 but declared 10

14=9 but declared 11

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by 2bGood

[Sawgrass]

After consultation with the USGA, it’s my understanding that each player is responsible for declaring their correct index and course handicap, but not responsible for the accuracy of allowances (playing handicap).  
 

Assuming players declare the appropriate course handicap (or accidentally declare a lower course handicap), any mistakes in applying the allowances are not subject to DQ — if you agree to a match status based on erroneous allowances, you’re stuck with that agreement irrespective of who made the honest error.

[Purple Toupee]

What exactly defines a declaration?  The rule says the players “should” tell each other their handicaps before the match, but it doesn’t say they “must” do it.  In this case it looks like they got the scorecard from the pro, and just went with it. It’s unlikely there was any verbal declaration, but the OP would have to confirm that.

[Colin L]

8 hours ago, Purple Toupee said:

But the OP said that the Pro forgot to take 80% of the handicaps.  So if it’s a DQ, wouldn’t it have to apply to both sides?  All four of those handicaps should have been reduced.

It wasn't at all clear from the OP what had actually happened, which is why  I explained what would be the case if a player declared too high a handicap.  

 

Sawgrass has explained the outcome of playing handicaps being miscalculated.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2021 by Colin L