Jump to content

Fourball match with incorrect card


pingfool
 Share

Recommended Posts

Season long 64 Team Member-Member Match play semifinals

 

handicaps are 3 7 13 14. 80% off low man

scorecard done by PGA Head Professional prepared incorrectly. Not discovered until 13th hole.

 

tough luck should have been noticed on first tee?

Ping G710 6-PW

PING Glide 2.0 Stealth 50*-54*-60*

G410 25* AltaCB
G410 21* AltaCB
G400 16* Air Speeder

G400 10.5 Air Speeder

Ping Tyne Sigma2
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, pingfool said:

Season long 64 Team Member-Member Match play semifinals

 

handicaps are 3 7 13 14. 80% off low man

scorecard done by PGA Head Professional prepared incorrectly. Not discovered until 13th hole.

 

tough luck should have been noticed on first tee?

What was wrong?  If you read the rules, Section 3.2, it is the responsibility of the players to provide accurate handicaps and to know where the strokes fall.  The players should have verified it on the first tee.  If someone had a handicap on the card that was higher than it should have been, and didn't correct it, 3.2c(1) suggests that player should have been DQ.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't get this.  What has a scorecard got to do with matchplay other than being a useful aide-memoire for the stroke index and, if your memory is anything like mine, a handy place to keep a note of the state of the match?

 

A player would be disqualified only if he declared a wrong handicap and that resulted in his receiving more strokes than he should have had as Dave has said.  What the pro or anyone else wrote on a card has no bearing on the matter at all.

 

Also,  your playing handicap in a fourball is the difference between 90% of your course handicap and that of the lowest handicapped player.

 

 

Edited by Colin L
Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, Colin L said:

I don't get this.  What has a scorecard got to do with matchplay other than being a useful aide-memoire for the stroke index and, if your memory is anything like mine, a handy place to keep a note of the state of the match?

 

A player would be disqualified only if he declared a wrong handicap and that resulted in his receiving more strokes than he should have had as Dave has said.  What the pro or anyone else wrote on a card has no bearing on the matter at all.

 

Also,  your playing handicap in a fourball is the difference between 90% of your course handicap and that of the lowest handicapped player.

 

 

Agree that it is the players' responsibility regarding handicap.  The professional (probably part of the Committee) has no responsibility.

I'm presuming that the OP is in the US, where handicap allowances are only recommendations and the Committee in charge can accept the recommendation or do what it considers best. 😀

Edited by rogolf
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm assuming the pro provided a scorecard which showed where each player received a stroke.

 

If there was a mistake in that then somebody could have conceded/lost a hole thinking their opponent was getting a stroke when if fact they weren't.

 

I'm sure most people just assume the dots on the scorecard are correctly applied and don't scrutinize it closely.

Cobra RAD Speed 9* : KBS TD 70 Cat 3 / Ventus Blue 6-S

Cobra RAD Speed 3W : Graphite Design AD TP8-S

Srixon ZXU #2 : Nippon Modus 3 120-S

Wilson Staff CB 4-PW : Nippon Modus3 120-S

Cleveland Zipcore 50, 54: Nippon Modus2 120/125 S 

Cobra MIM Black 58 : Nippon 125 Wedge

Piretti Potenza 370g : Breakthrough Technology Stability Shaft - 34"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, jvincent said:

I'm assuming the pro provided a scorecard which showed where each player received a stroke.

 

If there was a mistake in that then somebody could have conceded/lost a hole thinking their opponent was getting a stroke when if fact they weren't.

 

I'm sure most people just assume the dots on the scorecard are correctly applied and don't scrutinize it closely.

Potentially to their own detriment.  It seems that Committees are just getting too much involved in assuming the players' responsibility, such as by providing a scorecard.  First off (as Colin noted), there is no scorecard required in match play.  Secondly, the Committee should just inform the players the handicap allowance and how to use it.  Then get out of the kitchen and leave it to the players.  If the players foul anything up, the Committee will use the Rules, which are very straightforward, to sort it out.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Colin L said:

.......A player would be disqualified only if he declared a wrong handicap and that resulted in his receiving more strokes than he should have had .......

 

 

To be more accurate, the side would be disqualified if one of the players declared too high a handicap and got more strokes than he should.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/12/2021 at 8:29 PM, jvincent said:

I'm assuming the pro provided a scorecard which showed where each player received a stroke.

 

If there was a mistake in that then somebody could have conceded/lost a hole thinking their opponent was getting a stroke when if fact they weren't.

 

I'm sure most people just assume the dots on the scorecard are correctly applied and don't scrutinize it closely.


^
this is pretty much exactly what happened. Golf professional prepared card (he runs all aspects of tournament) incorrectly. Did not compute 80% and had too many strokes on the card.  Was not discovered until the team that was 3down checked the card on 13

 

match finished 3+2. Losing team looked up rule and now understands responsibility to verify card on 1st tee

Ping G710 6-PW

PING Glide 2.0 Stealth 50*-54*-60*

G410 25* AltaCB
G410 21* AltaCB
G400 16* Air Speeder

G400 10.5 Air Speeder

Ping Tyne Sigma2
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, pingfool said:


^
this is pretty much exactly what happened. Golf professional prepared card (he runs all aspects of tournament) incorrectly. Did not compute 80% and had too many strokes on the card.  Was not discovered until the team that was 3down checked the card on 13

 

match finished 3+2. Losing team looked up rule and now understands responsibility to verify card on 1st tee

And hopefully the professional will no longer be performing player responsibilities?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, rogolf said:

And hopefully the professional will no longer be performing player responsibilities?


the way this seasons tournaments have gone - he will be lucky to perform any professional responsibilities in the current situation 

 

help me to understand why you feel the golf professional should not be preparing scorecards for member tournaments?

 

 

Ping G710 6-PW

PING Glide 2.0 Stealth 50*-54*-60*

G410 25* AltaCB
G410 21* AltaCB
G400 16* Air Speeder

G400 10.5 Air Speeder

Ping Tyne Sigma2
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, pingfool said:


the way this seasons tournaments have gone - he will be lucky to perform any professional responsibilities in the current situation 

 

help me to understand why you feel the golf professional should not be preparing scorecards for member tournaments?

 

 

Not for match play. 
 

Full field tournaments are fine. 
 

He can set up the brackets for match play, and make sure everyone plays their matches on time, and get tee times for teams. But that’s about it for match play. 
 

Matches are played by the players involved. If they can’t figure out their own caps it’s on them. There isn’t a field to protect. It’s every player’s responsibility in match play to know how many strokes they get and which holes they stroke on. 
 

If they screw it up, it’s totally on them. Blaming the pro is pretty weak. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, pingfool said:


the way this seasons tournaments have gone - he will be lucky to perform any professional responsibilities in the current situation 

 

help me to understand why you feel the golf professional should not be preparing scorecards for member tournaments?

 

 

 

I believe Golf Genius is capable of performing the task of preparing dotted scorecards for match play. Of course, garbage in = garbage out. Though, no matter what, the players are solely responsible. 😀

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The GHIN app on smart phone is helpful as well. Use the “Handicap Calculator”, import the players in question, choose the correct course and tees, and allowance percentage.

 

In general, many members tend to over rely on the pro. We all appreciate our club pros and assistant pros, but they can make mistakes. I had one head pro tell me a “true” alternate shot format - and who hit the next tee shot - was determined by who holed out on the previous hole. When the rule in the book says one player tees off on odd numbered holes, and the other on even. (Is the rule book not true?) Stuff like the OP’s story happens from time to time. Just keep working to get it right. The guys here help us get things corrected. 

Fit at Totally Driven:
Titleist TS3 9.5, Oban Devotion 6, 05 flex 65g
TM M4 Tour 3W, Oban Devotion 7, 05 flex 75g
TM R15 TP #3 (19*), Fujikura Speeder 869 X
Mizuno JPX 900 Forged 4-PW, KBS C-Taper X
Mizuno JPX 919 Forged GW, KBS C-Taper X
Vokey Wedges - SM8 56.12 & 60.08 S400
Newport 2.5

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Augster said:

Not for match play. 
 

Full field tournaments are fine. 
 

He can set up the brackets for match play, and make sure everyone plays their matches on time, and get tee times for teams. But that’s about it for match play. 
 

Matches are played by the players involved. If they can’t figure out their own caps it’s on them. There isn’t a field to protect. It’s every player’s responsibility in match play to know how many strokes they get and which holes they stroke on. 
 

If they screw it up, it’s totally on them. Blaming the pro is pretty weak. 


so pro prepares the card incorrectly. Members don’t catch it. Blaming the pro is weak?

 

this not about what should happen - but what did happen

Ping G710 6-PW

PING Glide 2.0 Stealth 50*-54*-60*

G410 25* AltaCB
G410 21* AltaCB
G400 16* Air Speeder

G400 10.5 Air Speeder

Ping Tyne Sigma2
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Augster said:

Not for match play. 
 

Full field tournaments are fine. 
 

He can set up the brackets for match play, and make sure everyone plays their matches on time, and get tee times for teams. But that’s about it for match play. 
 

Matches are played by the players involved. If they can’t figure out their own caps it’s on them. There isn’t a field to protect. It’s every player’s responsibility in match play to know how many strokes they get and which holes they stroke on. 

 

disclaimer:  US private country club member here.

 

The responsibility of this being on the player is news to me (and I would say most of the members of my club).  Our pros create dotted scorecards for our summer long match play bracket, our summer long fourball bracket, our member/guest (5 nine hole better ball matches, 10 flights), and every other Saturday tournament we have.  I am not sure they do this because they think they need to, or if they are treating it as a service.  I guess you could consider the MG and tourneys to be full field, but they do this for the match play brackets without players asking.

 

Right or wrong, I would consider the pros to be the committee and would accept whatever they tell me/give me as correct.  Now being a generally curious person I always check my upcoming opponent in GHIN before our match to see what I should be getting or giving, and will confirm that on the scorecard.  However not everyone does this and will show up for a match in the late afternoon on a Friday after a hellish week at work, not thinking or being able to check and will go from trunk to tee.  Is that an excuse?  No, but it is the reality.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The daily handicap updates can complicate a season long match play competition. A committee sometimes chooses a handicap in effect on a specific date - a day or two in advance of a stroke play tournament - in order to prepare the pairings/documents/scorecards/etc. But a somewhat random match on Saturday morning can be problematic. Especially if they played on Friday afternoon. (What if a opponent had a good round on Friday and didn’t post?) The rules should be set out clearly in advance. But it’s on the player to verify his handicap in match play. 

Edited by mark m

Fit at Totally Driven:
Titleist TS3 9.5, Oban Devotion 6, 05 flex 65g
TM M4 Tour 3W, Oban Devotion 7, 05 flex 75g
TM R15 TP #3 (19*), Fujikura Speeder 869 X
Mizuno JPX 900 Forged 4-PW, KBS C-Taper X
Mizuno JPX 919 Forged GW, KBS C-Taper X
Vokey Wedges - SM8 56.12 & 60.08 S400
Newport 2.5

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, pingfool said:


so pro prepares the card incorrectly. Members don’t catch it. Blaming the pro is weak?

 

this not about what should happen - but what did happen

I am not sure I would call it 'weak' - but the player is the one responsible under the rules. To me it is very similar to having a marker put the wrong score down for a hole, it is unfortunate, but it is the players responsibility to assure it is correct. 

 

Under the rules of golf, the pro has no responsibility but under the contract of his employment - he screwed up. 

 

It sounds like one of the sides should have been DQ in this match. Did that occur?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

I am not sure I would call it 'weak' - but the player is the one responsible under the rules. To me it is very similar to having a marker put the wrong score down for a hole, it is unfortunate, but it is the players responsibility to assure it is correct. 

 

Under the rules of golf, the pro has no responsibility but under the contract of his employment - he screwed up. 

 

It sounds like one of the sides should have been DQ in this match. Did that occur?

Why would one side be DQ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Purple Toupee said:

Why would one side be DQ?

Already explained above.  

 

If one of the  players declared a handicap higher than he should have and as a result received more strokes than he should have, his side is disqualified.  I don't think we know if this was the case in the OP's situation.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m surprised that so many are surprised by the fact that a card is handed out with the stroke holes marked. I’ve never played anywhere where it wasn’t done this way. 
 

I normally check, but just to see where everyone pops. Every course and pro uses different percentages, so I don’t know how many each person should be getting. Just want to know where the strokes fall. 
 

It probably actually happens a lot more than people think. They never know something was incorrect. Have to remember, the vast majority out there have no idea how handicaps work, so they also don’t know how they get applied. 


Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Colin L said:

Already explained above.  

 

If one of the  players declared a handicap higher than he should have and as a result received more strokes than he should have, his side is disqualified.  I don't think we know if this was the case in the OP's situation.

But the OP said that the Pro forgot to take 80% of the handicaps.  So if it’s a DQ, wouldn’t it have to apply to both sides?  All four of those handicaps should have been reduced.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, mark m said:

The daily handicap updates can complicate a season long match play competition. A committee sometimes chooses a handicap in effect on a specific date - a day or two in advance of a stroke play tournament - in order to prepare the pairings/documents/scorecards/etc. But a somewhat random match on Saturday morning can be problematic. Especially if they played on Friday afternoon. (What if a opponent had a good round on Friday and didn’t post?) The rules should be set out clearly in advance. But it’s on the player to verify his handicap in match play. 

 

Things can get more difficult when cheaters participate in tournaments but that has nothing to do with the handicap system. If a player doesn't post a score he/she was supposed to and therefore declares a handicap that's too high and gets more strokes than he/she should, the player is disqualified. The club should also look into further disciplinary actions against such cheaters.

Swing DNA: 91/4/3/6/6
D & 3W: ST 180 / 3i: MP-H5 / 4-PW: MP-4 / 50º: MP-T5 / 55º: FG Tour PMP  / 60º: Hi-Toe / Mizuno Bettinardi BC-4

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, Purple Toupee said:

But the OP said that the Pro forgot to take 80% of the handicaps.  So if it’s a DQ, wouldn’t it have to apply to both sides?  All four of those handicaps should have been reduced.

Good call. In this scenario it would be reasonable to assume that three of the four players declared a handicap higher than they should have and both sides would be DQ'd. 

 

3=0

7=3 but declared 4

13=8 but declared 10

14=9 but declared 11

 

 

 

Edited by 2bGood
Link to comment
Share on other sites

After consultation with the USGA, it’s my understanding that each player is responsible for declaring their correct index and course handicap, but not responsible for the accuracy of allowances (playing handicap).  
 

Assuming players declare the appropriate course handicap (or accidentally declare a lower course handicap), any mistakes in applying the allowances are not subject to DQ — if you agree to a match status based on erroneous allowances, you’re stuck with that agreement irrespective of who made the honest error.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What exactly defines a declaration?  The rule says the players “should” tell each other their handicaps before the match, but it doesn’t say they “must” do it.  In this case it looks like they got the scorecard from the pro, and just went with it. It’s unlikely there was any verbal declaration, but the OP would have to confirm that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Purple Toupee said:

But the OP said that the Pro forgot to take 80% of the handicaps.  So if it’s a DQ, wouldn’t it have to apply to both sides?  All four of those handicaps should have been reduced.

It wasn't at all clear from the OP what had actually happened, which is why  I explained what would be the case if a player declared too high a handicap.  

 

Sawgrass has explained the outcome of playing handicaps being miscalculated.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Colin L
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Our picks

    • 2022 Farmers Insurance Open - Discussion and Links
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
      General Albums - 
       
      2022 Farmers Insurance Open - Monday #1
      2022 Farmers Insurance Open - Monday #2
      2022 Farmers Insurance Open - Monday #3
      2022 Farmers Insurance Open - Monday #4
       
       
      WITB Albums - 
       
      Hideki Matsuyama - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Sung Kang - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Adam Long - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Brandon Wu - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Jimmy Walker - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Sam Burns - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Xander Schauffele - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Trey Mullinax - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Daniel Berger - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      James Hahn - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Phil Mickelson - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Aaron Wise - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Justin Thomas - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Lee Hodges - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Jordan Spieth - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Cameron Champ - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Kyle Stanley - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
       
       
      Pullout Albums - 
       
      New Super Stroke grip - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Tour Aim alignment aids - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Swag Golf: Hideki's caddie bowing at Augusta, signed headcovers – 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Dylan Frittelli's Callaway Apex TCB Sand Wedge (1-of-1 proto) – 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Bryson DeChambeau's Cobra King LTDx 5-degree driver – 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      NeuroPeak Pro NTel Belt - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      JumboMax JMX Zen Lite grips – 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
       
      Cameron Champ WITB has the new Ping i525

       
      Bryson's WITB has the new Cobra LTDx Driver 

       
      Phils new Rogue Driver

       
      Bryson's LAGolf Shaft in the driver

       
      Xander has the triple diamond "S" driver

       
      New SuperStroke grips for 2022

       
      • 1 reply
    • 2022 The American Express WITB Photos (Spotted: New gear for 2022) - Discussion & Links
      Please put and comments or questions here
       
       
      Scotty Cameron putters - 2022 American Express
      New Taylor-Made putters - 2022 American Express
      New Odyssey putters - 2022 American Express
      New Axis 1 model putter - - 2022 American Express
      Patrick Cantlay - WITB - 2022 American Express
      Mitsubishi MMT putter shaft - 2022 American Express
      Ping putter - 2022 American Express
      Abraham Ancer - WITB - 2022 American Express
      Jason Dufner - WITB - 2022 American Express
      Will Zalatoris - WITB - 2022 American Express
      The Surgeon 6109 wedge - 2022 American Express
      LA Golf "DJ Series" shafts (2022 American Express)
       
       
       
      2022 American Express - Monday #1
       
       
       
       
      • 40 replies
    • Sony Open Pics from January 11, 2022 Part 1
      I was able to get out to the Sony Open today to take a few pics.  I guess due to Covid precautions they kept the spectators pretty far from the players.  Also due to camera restrictions they've put in place, I wasn't able to bring the big lens like I normally do. Hopefully they'll ease up on the ropes and I'll be able to get more pics tomorrow!
        • Thanks
        • Like
      • 22 replies
    • 2022 Callaway Rogue ST drivers (in-hand photos)
      2022 Callaway Rogue ST Max driver
       

       
      2022 Callaway Rogue ST Max D driver
       
      2021 Callaway Rogue ST Max 
       
      2022 Callaway Rogue ST Max LS driver

       
      2022 Callaway Rogue ST Triple Diamond LS

       
      Rogue ST exploded views
        • Like
      • 199 replies
    • Titleist Vokey SM9 Link on Wedge Works Coming Soon- UPDATED Pics Added Pg 4
      Looks like there is a link on Titleist Wedge Works for the new Vokey SM9, but doesn't show any photos yet.
       
      https://www.vokey.com/product/WM137.html#start=4
        • Thanks
        • Like
      • 207 replies

×
×
  • Create New...