Are these shaft tips over-prepped?

[DewSweepingMoose]

So I tried to re-shaft a few shafts into some diff adaptors, all up I did 3 shafts. Shaft #1 was done a few weeks before shafts #2 & #3 (which were done on same day).

Was testing shafts #2 & #3 at the range when my g425 head came flying off shaft #2, going 100 yards down the range 😂. When I got home I put a head on #3 and tried twisting the head, I was able to turn it and basically pull it off with my bare hands. I then tried to do the same with a head on shaft #1, it would not budge at all.

At first I thought it was possibly the epoxy left too close to direct sun coming through my window, but tested putting an old adaptor on an old shaft the other day and it seems to pass the hand-twist-torque test, so think the epoxy may not be the issue. Possibly shafts #2 & #3 have had too much of the tip removed?

Pics below of the tips of shafts #2 & #3, any thoughts on if the tips may have been prepped a few too many times? If so, would beaded epoxy be a solution? 

Any insights would be very much appreciated 🙂

(also open to tipping them a bit if required to reuse them)

Thanks!

[oneaugusta]

Looks fine to me.  Make sure to use enough glue and I like the 24 hr set glue.  Might also use quick center for more secure fit.

[Stuart_G]

52 minutes ago, DewSweepingMoose said:

Pics below of the tips of shafts #2 & #3, any thoughts on if the tips may have been prepped a few too many times? If so, would beaded epoxy be a solution? 

 

Impossible to say from the picture but very unlikely the cause of the joint failure.    Would have to actually measure the tip size and check the fit in the hosel/adapter bore.   If it is too loose, use a shim.  If it's not loose enough for a shim, then the beads aren't needed and wont help anything.

 

Over prepping really means a weaker shaft and the shaft itself being more likely to break near the top of the hosel.  It's not usually going to result in only the epoxy bond breaking down.

 

52 minutes ago, DewSweepingMoose said:

Any insights would be very much appreciated 🙂
 

 

More likely either a problem with the epoxy mix (always save the leftover epoxy to check how well it cures.  Or even more common a problem with the prep of the hosel/adapter bore.  The aluminum adapters sometimes do need a bit of extra care to make sure they get a proper preparation.  Clean with alcohol (iso-propyl or denatured) or even acetone.   Then many of them need to be roughened up on the inside to help with the adhesion of the epoxy.

 

If, when the shafts came loose, you need to look to see where the epoxy was left on.   If most of it was still on the shaft, then it was a problem with the epoxy adhering to the adapter.   If it was more evenly attached to both the shaft tip and the adapter, it was more likely a problem with the epoxy itself.

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Stuart_G

[DewSweepingMoose]

18 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

If, when the shafts came loose, you need to look to see where the epoxy was left on.   If most of it was still on the shaft, then it was a problem with the epoxy adhering to the adapter.   If it was more evenly attached to both the shaft tip and the adapter, it was more likely a problem with the epoxy itself.

 

Thanks heaps @Stuart_G this sheds a bit of light, nearly all was still on the shaft tip looking like a few layers of onion skin. Sounds so obvious now, thinking that the adaptor sleeve also needs a prep to get a grippier surface, I just kind of figured they would make the internal adaptor sleeve a rough surface given its not exactly the most accessible area unless you have mini hands. Any tips on easy diy ways to get in there without a drill & sanding bit? 

[animalgolfs]

33 minutes ago, DewSweepingMoose said:

Thanks heaps @Stuart_G this sheds a bit of light, nearly all was still on the shaft tip looking like a few layers of onion skin. Sounds so obvious now, thinking that the adaptor sleeve also needs a prep to get a grippier surface, I just kind of figured they would make the internal adaptor sleeve a rough surface given its not exactly the most accessible area unless you have mini hands. Any tips on easy diy ways to get in there without a drill & sanding bit? 

I think you're over thinking this.....change epoxy - 100% that is the culprit 

 Make sure your epoxy mixture sets up properly....as Stuart said "leave a little leftover" to check it sets up properly 

[mgoblue83]

3 minutes ago, animalgolfs said:

I think you're over thinking this.....change epoxy - 100% that is the culprit 

 Make sure your epoxy mixture sets up properly....as Stuart said "leave a little leftover" to check it sets up properly 

 

He is definitely not over thinking it.

 

Without proper and detailed adapter prep the best epoxy in the world will fail. 

 

Golfworks sells what are essentially drill bits with sand paper attached to rough up the insides of the adapters but you can always do it by hand. Just wrap a thin piece of sand paper around a screw driver and dig in. Make sure you clean the adapter after roughing it up with alcohol or acetone like @Stuart_G mentioned above.

 

 

[Stuart_G]

43 minutes ago, DewSweepingMoose said:

Thanks heaps @Stuart_G this sheds a bit of light, nearly all was still on the shaft tip looking like a few layers of onion skin. Sounds so obvious now, thinking that the adaptor sleeve also needs a prep to get a grippier surface, I just kind of figured they would make the internal adaptor sleeve a rough surface given its not exactly the most accessible area unless you have mini hands. Any tips on easy diy ways to get in there without a drill & sanding bit? 

 

As I mentioned before - make sure you clean it to make sure any residual chemicals from the manufacturing process are not going to get in the way of adhesion.   As far as roughening up the inside goes, I usually just use a wire cleaning brush drill bit but some sandpaper wrapped around a wooden dowel or even a circular file should be all that's needed the inside surface.

 

[animalgolfs]

39 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

He is definitely not over thinking it.

 

Without proper and detailed adapter prep the best epoxy in the world will fail. 

 

Golfworks sells what are essentially drill bits with sand paper attached to rough up the insides of the adapters but you can always do it by hand. Just wrap a thin piece of sand paper around a screw driver and dig in. Make sure you clean the adapter after roughing it up with alcohol or acetone like @Stuart_G mentioned above.

 

 

He literally states he can turn shaft afapter #3 by hand.....its an epoxy issue

 

The epoxy didn't set up.....he went back home & was able to turn #3

 

And I'm not saying avoid adapter prep....there is definitely left over oil residue from machinery, in those adapters. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by animalgolfs

[Stuart_G]

15 minutes ago, animalgolfs said:

He literally states he can turn shaft afapter #3 by hand.....its an epoxy issue

 

The epoxy didn't set up.....he went back home & was able to turn #3

 

 

Those aren't symptoms unique to the epoxy not setting properly.  Any issues with the epoxy adhering to either of the surfaces would result in the exact same thing.

 

People blame the epoxy mix way to frequently.  It's possible but It's actually really hard to screw up the epoxy mix.

 

The fact that all the epoxy ended up on the shaft means it's clearly an issue with the epoxy adhering to the adapter - which is also WAY more common than any other cause.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Stuart_G

[animalgolfs]

6 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Those aren't symptoms unique to the epoxy not setting properly.  Any issues with the epoxy adhering to either of the surfaces would result in the exact same thing.

 

People blame the epoxy mix way to frequently.  It's possible but It's actually really hard to screw up the epoxy mix.

 

The fact that all the epoxy ended up on the shaft means it's clearly an issue with the epoxy adhering to the adapter - which is also WAY more common than any other cause.

So he did #1 without a problem.....no failure

 Then he has a new epoxy mixture for #2 & #3 & both fail.....I'm assuming using the same adapters on all 3? 

 

 

[Ger21]

30 minutes ago, animalgolfs said:

He literally states he can turn shaft afapter #3 by hand.....its an epoxy issue

 

The epoxy didn't set up.....he went back home & was able to turn #3

No, he said the shaft pulled out of the adapter, with all the epoxy bonded to the shaft.

[Stuart_G]

21 minutes ago, animalgolfs said:

So he did #1 without a problem.....no failure

 Then he has a new epoxy mixture for #2 & #3 & both fail.....I'm assuming using the same adapters on all 3? 

 

 

 

With adapters, failure rate isn't 100% w/o prepping. Even if they did come from the same source (which isn't really a safe assumption) they could still come from different manufacturing batches.

 

Even if it was the epoxy, proper prepping of the adapter bore is only going to improve the adhesion.  It's certainly not going to hurt anything.  But if it was the lack of adapter prep, the best epoxy mix in the world isn't going to get the job done.   So there is really no question on what the best course of action is going to be.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Stuart_G

[animalgolfs]

33 minutes ago, Ger21 said:

No, he said the shaft pulled out of the adapter, with all the epoxy bonded to the shaft.

Was the epoxy set? He just says onion skin.....was it hard epoxy or still pliable? 

[DewSweepingMoose]

Thanks for input guys, and just to clarify it was 3 diff adaptors on the 3 diff shafts, all 3 were brand new all-fit adaptors. Test shaft #4 was an old adaptor on an old shaft.

Epoxy was this one:
https://www.golfworks.com/the-golfworks-high-strength-epoxy/p/epx1/

I do try to be quite careful to get the mix as close to 1:1 as possible and leave for min 24hrs, but at the end of the day its still technically and eyeballed mix ratio. But I've probably epoxied in the neighbourhood of 5 or 6 full sets of clubs that way and haven't had this every happen, although these 3 were the first adaptor sleeves I've ever done, all others were old school shaft to hosel jobs. 

It seems reasonable to think you're all kind of right and it could be a combo of poorly mixed epoxy on the day (since #1 shaft and #4 test shaft seem stable) and possibly a lacking adaptor prep. Might get some beaded epoxy though this time. Will be wary and very careful, not sure I feel like asking a packed driving range to stop hitting so I can go retrieve my driver head again lol

Edited September 13, 2021 by DewSweepingMoose

[mister2cool]

I think it would have been very helpful to see some pix of the shaft and tip after the head flew off, and after you pulled out shaft #3 by hand. There is no way properly mixed epoxy would cure and you can still turn it by hand, even if it's only held on by a small amount. 

 

If your concern is shaft became too skinny for the adaptor.. you can dry fit the shaft in and see how much room you can wiggle the shaft. Honestly I still do not think it would have failed like you described even if you epoxied a toothpick in there. However, if the shaft is indeed too skinny for the adaptor, you can always add shim https://www.golfworks.com/the-golfworks-brass-adaptor-shims/p/shim/

 

All fit adaptors are sometime a bit tricky though. I have used them in the past.. one time I bought 2 and both had opening smaller than 335 and I couldn't get the shaft in. Seller replaced them and the replacements were fine. One theory I have is the shaft might not have gone in all the way, and most epoxy might have dripped down to the cavity before it set. That's why pictures of the shaft and tip after they came out would have been very helpful. 

 

Also, range usually have protected carts that they can drive out to retrieve the head for you so they don't have to stop everyone. Trust me, you are the only one that have heads fly off at a range. 😆

Edited September 13, 2021 by mister2cool

[animalgolfs]

6 minutes ago, mister2cool said:

There is no way properly mixed epoxy would cure and you can still turn it by hand, even if it's only held on by a small amount. 

 

This is exactly why I questioned all....did the epoxy ever set up on #3? If the epoxy set....there's basically no way to pull that adaptor off by hand 

 

Unless, if course, oil residue left over from cnc- in adapter 

[Stuart_G]

40 minutes ago, mister2cool said:

There is no way properly mixed epoxy would cure and you can still turn it by hand, even if it's only held on by a small amount.

 

Not uncommon at all.

 

After balls have been hit with it on the range, it certainly is very possible to be able to turn it by hand if the epoxy never adhered well to the aluminum surface of the adapter.   It would be very similar to trying to epoxy a shaft into a head w/o removing the chrome finish from the shaft tip.  It might seem secure at first, but it wont stand up to hitting balls and doesn't take much to break what little bond was able to get.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Stuart_G

[mister2cool]

19 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Not uncommon at all.

 

After balls have been hit with it on the range, it certainly is very possible to be able to turn it by hand if the epoxy never adhered well to the aluminum surface of the adapter.   It would be very similar to trying to epoxy a shaft into a head w/o removing the chrome finish from the shaft tip.  It might seem secure at first, but it wont stand up to hitting balls and doesn't take much to break what little bond was able to get.

 

 

I could be wrong but it doesn't sound like he actually hit any balls with #3. 

[Stuart_G]

32 minutes ago, mister2cool said:

I could be wrong but it doesn't sound like he actually hit any balls with #3. 

 

It's true it wasn't clear.   Personally If I took two shafts to the range and one came apart, I'd put the other one on to test it hitting balls.  But that's just me.

 

But it doesn't really change anything.   It takes both a good surface and a good cure of epoxy to get any kind of resistance to shear.   The state of the epoxy left on the shaft after removing the shaft from the head or the state of the unused epoxy after curing would be the only way to be 100% certain.  But if it was the epoxy, there would typically be a lot more left partially attached to the inside of the hosel bore.

 

[DewSweepingMoose]

Sorry if this is a silly question, but in terms of leaving some of the epoxy batch to see if it sets correctly, how exactly do you test if it sets correctly? Do you leave something like a golf tee in the mix and try to pull it out after it sets?

 

5 hours ago, mister2cool said:

I could be wrong but it doesn't sound like he actually hit any balls with #3. 

I did actually, but put it back in the bag and just went with #2 for most of the session. #3 might have had ~10 balls hit with it.

 

6 hours ago, mister2cool said:

I think it would have been very helpful to see some pix of the shaft and tip after the head flew off, and after you pulled out shaft #3 by hand. There is no way properly mixed epoxy would cure and you can still turn it by hand, even if it's only held on by a small amount. 

This is very true, didn't occur to me to seek other's thoughts until after the fact. If the next batch fails similarly I will 💯 post pics haha!


Thanks again for all the help guys 🙂
 

[animalgolfs]

1 hour ago, DewSweepingMoose said:

Sorry if this is a silly question, but in terms of leaving some of the epoxy batch to see if it sets correctly, how exactly do you test if it sets correctly? Do you leave something like a golf tee in the mix and try to pull it out after it sets?

 

I did actually, but put it back in the bag and just went with #2 for most of the session. #3 might have had ~10 balls hit with it.

 

This is very true, didn't occur to me to seek other's thoughts until after the fact. If the next batch fails similarly I will 💯 post pics haha!


Thanks again for all the help guys 🙂
 

I leave a toothpick in my mix...a golf tee would do the trick as well

[mister2cool]

3 hours ago, DewSweepingMoose said:

Sorry if this is a silly question, but in terms of leaving some of the epoxy batch to see if it sets correctly, how exactly do you test if it sets correctly? Do you leave something like a golf tee in the mix and try to pull it out after it sets?

 

I did actually, but put it back in the bag and just went with #2 for most of the session. #3 might have had ~10 balls hit with it.

 

This is very true, didn't occur to me to seek other's thoughts until after the fact. If the next batch fails similarly I will 💯 post pics haha!


Thanks again for all the help guys 🙂
 

Ok so the bound did hold together for 10 balls but came loose to the point that you were able to pull the shaft out by hand. 

Do you recall if there were epoxy on the tip of the shaft with very clear side walls? Or did the shaft come out looking like the pictures above? (I hope it's not the latter.. LOL), or if there were broken or mushy epoxy bits and pieces? I think that's the most crucial bits of information to see where the bound had failed. 

 

[mister2cool]

11 hours ago, DewSweepingMoose said:

....
Epoxy was this one:
https://www.golfworks.com/the-golfworks-high-strength-epoxy/p/epx1/

 

 

Has anyone else used this epoxy? It says "sets in 18 hours and cures in 24 hours". 24 hour cuing time is fairly normal for slow cuing type but 18 hour set time?? That seems awfully long.. I had never seen a epoxy that sets in more than 1 hour.  I don't know how liquid this mix is but if a shaft isn't inserted all the way in the sleeve, that's an awfully long time for epoxy to flow into the cavity and leaving very little to actually doing the bounding. The long set time would also mean you could potentially damage the bound if you moved the shaft inside the sleeve within that 18 hours, especially towards the end of that period. 

[SwingBlues]

1 hour ago, mister2cool said:

 

Has anyone else used this epoxy? It says "sets in 18 hours and cures in 24 hours". 24 hour cuing time is fairly normal for slow cuing type but 18 hour set time?? That seems awfully long.. I had never seen a epoxy that sets in more than 1 hour.  I don't know how liquid this mix is but if a shaft isn't inserted all the way in the sleeve, that's an awfully long time for epoxy to flow into the cavity and leaving very little to actually doing the bounding. The long set time would also mean you could potentially damage the bound if you moved the shaft inside the sleeve within that 18 hours, especially towards the end of that period. 

 

I looked at it but I am DONE with long set epoxy. I had a bad bouts of the GolfWorks 1:1 EzPour High strength. It was my goto for many years but the last build I think I found some issues with the epoxy. Apparently, talking to my pro-club builder, you cannot even allow anything to move while this epoxy sets in the first 12 hours. He recommended this instead:

 

https://www.golfworks.com/the-golfworks-maximum-strength-high-impact-epoxy/p/vb1001/

 

4,500 psi sheer strength and sets in an hour and 1/2. So I have been using that to fix my build. Zero issues.

 

And more than enough times for me to work and build. It's a little more expensive and I also got a gun to ensure correct 2:1 quantity

[Stuart_G]

14 hours ago, DewSweepingMoose said:

how exactly do you test if it sets correctly? Do you leave something like a golf tee in the mix and try to pull it out after it sets?

 

No you don't have to leave anything in it.   Just make sure that it's cured to the point of being hard and glassy.   You can use the wooden tee (or similar) to make sure it resists deformation with pressure.  Should also not be sticky or overly brittle.

 

 

8 hours ago, SwingBlues said:

 

Apparently, talking to my pro-club builder, you cannot even allow anything to move while this epoxy sets in the first 12 hours.

 

Maybe I'm misinterpreting the meaning here but if he was implying that moving would weaken the epoxy or the bond, then that's not really true.   It's true with some type of glues (hide glue comes to mind) but that's just not how the epoxy hardening process works.   Moving it before it fully cures (or gels) does not interrupt the process or degrade the final cured strength.   All it might do is move the head out of the desired position.

 

But you're not the first to complain about some of the golfworks epoxy.  Never used it myself, but based on what others have reported here in the forum, I suspect the QA was a bit weak and they've had some bad batches from time to time.

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by Stuart_G

[oneaugusta]

9 hours ago, mister2cool said:

 

Has anyone else used this epoxy? It says "sets in 18 hours and cures in 24 hours". 24 hour cuing time is fairly normal for slow cuing type but 18 hour set time?? That seems awfully long.. I had never seen a epoxy that sets in more than 1 hour.  I don't know how liquid this mix is but if a shaft isn't inserted all the way in the sleeve, that's an awfully long time for epoxy to flow into the cavity and leaving very little to actually doing the bounding. The long set time would also mean you could potentially damage the bound if you moved the shaft inside the sleeve within that 18 hours, especially towards the end of that period. 

That is all I've used for the past 15 years and has never let me down.  "Has strongest bond and shear strength, check the specs and compare"

[driveandputtmachine]

I have only ever used the Tour Set Plus Epoxy from golfworks.   Playing strength in 60-90 minutes at 77* and full cure in 24 hour at 77*.  I have had some kind of failure with just about every other "golf" epoxy out there, but never from the Tour Set Plus.

 

I have used a couple of 3m branded epoxies with no issue as well, but cannot remember the specifics, DP something, someone on this forum recommended it, but it was much more expensive than the Golf Works Tour Set I use.

[SwingBlues]

6 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Maybe I'm misinterpreting the meaning here but if he was implying that moving would weaken the epoxy or the bond, then that's not really true.   It's true with some type of glues (hide glue comes to mind) but that's just not how the epoxy hardening process works.   Moving it before it fully cures (or gels) does not interrupt the process or degrade the final cured strength.   All it might do is move the head out of the desired position.

 

But you're not the first to complain about some of the golfworks epoxy.  Never used it myself, but based on what others have reported here in the forum, I suspect the QA was a bit weak and they've had some bad batches from time to time.

 

 

 

 

I was thinking like you as well, as long as it has not fully cured, "it's fine" and he is said these long cure epoxy can be finicky, if anything moves during the curing process, it will weaken the bonds. Take it or leave it but he's a former pga tour van club builder, worked with Kim B & he knows his stuff and he was helping me diagnose what the heck went wrong with my last build - which is partly my fault because I changed some procedures in my build. Now, obviously, "no bueno"....

 

As for poor batch, I've used this same Ez epoxy for a number of builds now, no issues until this recent month. Perhaps it's at it's end of life, bottle is like 1/4 down. The 1:1 and bottle is super convenient but I'd drop that to have a stronger epoxy. I gather you use the 3M stuff? I looked at it, seems steep for the price but I guess it is guaranteed a much better quality than the GW...

 

[animalgolfs]

2 hours ago, driveandputtmachine said:

I have only ever used the Tour Set Plus Epoxy from golfworks.   Playing strength in 60-90 minutes at 77* and full cure in 24 hour at 77*.  I have had some kind of failure with just about every other "golf" epoxy out there, but never from the Tour Set Plus.

 

I have used a couple of 3m branded epoxies with no issue as well, but cannot remember the specifics, DP something, someone on this forum recommended it, but it was much more expensive than the Golf Works Tour Set I use.

Tour set usually takes 3hrs min to set for me[my toothpick can still be moved at 2hrs].....at least where I'm confident enough to hit balls. That being said.....the Tour set w/beads is the only epoxy I've ever used 

 

Good stuff

[Stuart_G]

19 minutes ago, SwingBlues said:

 

I gather you use the 3M stuff?

 

 

Actually I'm still using the Golfsmith 24 hour epoxy (black).  Best stuff I've ever run across.  About 10 years old (or a bit more) and still going strong.

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by Stuart_G