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And I thought iron forgiveness is overrated


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I have a set of Ping G410s and i can say without question they are easier to hit than most iron sets. I think once you get to a certain level of ballstriking though you can afford to move to something that feels better.

 

Going back and forth between my Cobras and Ping G, i can say that while the results are great....The 410's feel like hitting rocks, with lesser feeling rocks

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I've told this story several times prior but it seems appropriate to this discussion since it mirrors the OP's.

 

I played blades for more than a decade and then moved to smallish CB's.  I remember looking at Mizuno MX-23's back in the day and shuttering at the large size.  Got married, had a kid, and basically didn't play for 7 years.  When I eventually got back into the game I had some Macgregor 1025.  Then came the fateful night while cruising ebay and drinking beer when I bought a set of Ping G10's.  Got a killer deal on a brand new set.  Took them to the range and it was a ballstriking epiphany.  Every shot high and straight.  I just couldn't believe it. 

 

 

 

 

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Ha! I literally posted exactly the opposite conclusion for me.  Been trying to fall in love with a more forgiving iron and I just haven't found one yet!  

 

It goes to show you that every swing is unique and you either have to get lucky (like I did) or pay for a good fitting and a matched set. 

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I've have both the G425 and I210's and played the G410's last year. 

 

I agree that the 425's are very forgiving and do everything I need. If they were the only set I had they would be in my bag for a long time. They are an improvement over the G410's in looks and performance. 

 

I find the I210's do everything I need with just a bit better control in the dispersion department, and they fit my eye just right. Working the ball either direction with the I210's is more confidence inspiring and the feel of the ball coming off the club is more smooth and muted if that makes sense.  

 

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8 hours ago, rsballer10 said:

I play MB's because I struggle getting wider cambered soles into and out of the turf. Turf interaction is a real thing, and most of the public courses I play are pretty firm.

 

Sole width and design doesn't affect a lot of people, but I am very sensitive to it.

 

I will say my old MP-32s that are currently in the bag instead of the MP-18s are a nice balance. Small cavity, moderate sole width, but very little camber so the club gets into the turf pretty easily.

 

There might be something to that with me as well.  I have a feeling that my small sole CB irons bail me out when I get steep, whereas the wider sole GI and SGI irons hang up more.  At my last lesson, I was hitting a Mizuno T20 50-deg GW and my instructor noted "wow, you came in a little steep and handsy on that one, but you muscled through it and it would have been a great miss on the course. It landed right where your flushed wedges landed".  

 

Not that I "want" a club to cover up my mistakes, but I won't complain if it is!  

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3 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

A golf pro I once worked with had this overall advice: Get clubs for the swing you have today, not the swing you hope to have next year.

 

I have driver CHS between 85-90 MPH depending on how loose my hip is on a given day. Since I turned 60, rough fittings put me generally with GI heads and sub-100 gram shafts. I'm now making my move to graphite shafts. I got fitted for Mav MAX irons, if they ever arrive.

 

Reason for GI heads: SGI heads just hang the ball up too high in the short irons and wedges. This problem is aggravated by frequent pairing of SGI heads with high-launch shafts.

See, this is where we differ completely, I LOVE this combo, but ymmv. I played with a fellow WRXer last week at a course some better players have poopoo’d for being “tough to hold the greens“ and “can’t get any spin on these greens...”. He was playing stiff Z785s and his Zstar ball was skipping through some 15-20ft, while my high-launch SGI heads + Pinnacle Rush balls we’re stopping within a couple feet(or back!) of my pitch marks.

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1 hour ago, Ripken08 said:

Flier lie is a flier lie and any club is going to give the same result.

Not only that, lower spinning GI clubs should have less deviation high on the face because they’re lower spin to begin with.

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1 hour ago, nostatic said:

a little yin/yang for this topic. When I strike the ZX7 right, it is awesome. The best ZX7 strike goes  longer than the SGI club (even though the SGI is 2 degrees stronger loft). But out of 10 swings, the average for the SGI club is longer and higher. So it becomes a set of percentage, perception, and performance questions. Will (or can) I spend the time necessary to get the ZX7 "good strike" percentage up high enough? Will my ego subconciously sabotage SGI swings? What is the break point for switching - 50% good outcomes? 75%?

 

halos - 1.jpeg

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@nostaticIs that SGI iron in your photo= the new Cleveland Launcher XL Halo iron?

 

Love the look of a fat bottom (sole)! 🍑

 

https://www.clevelandgolf.com/en/irons-/launcher-xl-halo-irons/MLXLHI.html


 

wondering how the Cleveland hybrid Rail soles will perform, vs my gamers (Cobra F7)... I like the Baffler Rails on the cobra

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Like others mentioned I keep going back and forth on this exact topic. I will convince myself I need something more forgiving after a stretch of poor play and pick up a set of Ping G irons. After a few months I will miss the smaller profile, slimmer sole, and better feel of a forged players CB type iron and switch to that, and then the cycle repeats - again and again. 

 

Right now my current thinking is the impact on my handicap and score is negligible. Maybe 1-2 strokes in any given round and less than a full stroke on the handicap. Since I am not playing for a living I am just going to play what looks and feels good, but if I absolutely had to shoot the lowest score possible, and every stroke mattered, I would play a set of Ping G irons. The difference between 84 and 85 just isn’t a big enough deal to not play what I like, and I can hit terrible shots with a blade and a huge SGI iron… 

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2 hours ago, JungleJimbo said:

@nostaticIs that SGI iron in your photo= the new Cleveland Launcher XL Halo iron?

 

Love the look of a fat bottom (sole)! 🍑

 

https://www.clevelandgolf.com/en/irons-/launcher-xl-halo-irons/MLXLHI.html


 

wondering how the Cleveland hybrid Rail soles will perform, vs my gamers (Cobra F7)... I like the Baffler Rails on the cobra

 

Yes, that is an XL Halo 9i. It is pretty stupid-easy to hit. I ordered up the PW for grins.

 

I have an F9 3H and love the rails but that currently is on hiatus, hitting 5W instead. My other hybrids are G425 and I like them a lot so no real incentive to swap to the Halo XLs in longer irons. I am also curious about the rails on the Halo XL though - I bet they are easy to hit.

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18 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

On the range a set of GI or SGI irons seem great for confidence, but less so on the course from a flier lie when they knuckleball 20 yards over the back of the green. If you have a low swing speed then go for it as the high launch will help, but for control I'd always choose a blade or as close to one as possible. It's much easier to take spin off a shot when you need to than it is to add it.  

 

This is not a blades vs cavity back answer. I have sets of players CBs in the cellar doing nothing alongside my blades that're doing nothing too. 

 

I hear people talk about this all the time, but have yet to experience it myself and I spend a lot of time in the rough with flier lies.  What I've found the main advantage to be with GI irons is that they help to maintain ball speed on off-center hits much better than do blades or MB irons.  I've yet to experience the GI "hitting it 10 or 20 yards longer" phenomena.  For reference, I swing my 7 iron at 88 mph, so not super fast, but not super slow either.  Maybe it's different with the guys who swing faster.

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12 hours ago, rsballer10 said:

I play MB's because I struggle getting wider cambered soles into and out of the turf. Turf interaction is a real thing, and most of the public courses I play are pretty firm.

 

Sole width and design doesn't affect a lot of people, but I am very sensitive to it.

 

I will say my old MP-32s that are currently in the bag instead of the MP-18s are a nice balance. Small cavity, moderate sole width, but very little camber so the club gets into the turf pretty easily.

 

I hear you, but this is another thing I don't quite understand.  If you hit the ball first and then the turf, why does the sole size even matter?  Are you talking about if you hit it a little fat, behind the ball?

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4 hours ago, A.Princey said:

See, this is where we differ completely, I LOVE this combo, but ymmv. I played with a fellow WRXer last week at a course some better players have poopoo’d for being “tough to hold the greens“ and “can’t get any spin on these greens...”. He was playing stiff Z785s and his Zstar ball was skipping through some 15-20ft, while my high-launch SGI heads + Pinnacle Rush balls we’re stopping within a couple feet(or back!) of my pitch marks.

 

Off-topic, but I found a Pinnacle Rush ball in the woods and gave it a try.  Good Lord, that ball rolls forever when I hit it with the driver.  I was in some spots that I've haven't been able to hit to since I had "young back," because I was getting 40 yards of roll when I'm used to getting only 10 at best (my course is in the middle of a flood plain, so the fairways never really firm up enough to get a lot of roll).  And the approach shots to the greens were holding just fine, too.  It's a really nice ball, especially at $20 for 15.  

 

My apologies for the digression...

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I still think it's overrated, but I just ordered my first set of "GI" irons, so we will see. I will compare them with my split cavities and see what's up.

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On 9/14/2021 at 3:27 AM, TheDeanAbides said:

On the range a set of GI or SGI irons seem great for confidence, but less so on the course from a flier lie when they knuckleball 20 yards over the back of the green. If you have a low swing speed then go for it as the high launch will help, but for control I'd always choose a blade or as close to one as possible. It's much easier to take spin off a shot when you need to than it is to add it.  

 

This is not a blades vs cavity back answer. I have sets of players CBs in the cellar doing nothing alongside my blades that're doing nothing too. 

 

Did you (re-)read what you wrote ?

 

Of COURSE it's a blade vs. CB answer. 🤦‍♀️ And a very poor one at that.

 

 

18 hours ago, Ripken08 said:

Flier lie is a flier lie and any club is going to give the same result.

 

I wouldn't go quite that far but to think one has any more "control" over a flier lie with 1 iron type vs another is an awfully large stretch.

 

All things equal the higher the swing speed the farther it will fly (over the non-flier lie).

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, ShowMe said:

 

I hear you, but this is another thing I don't quite understand.  If you hit the ball first and then the turf, why does the sole size even matter?  Are you talking about if you hit it a little fat, behind the ball?

 

Sole width + camber affects contact point on the face. While a wider body club is more forgiving on low strikes, I also get more of them.

 

I actually had an adjustment period with my newer MP-18's because of the additional camber, compared to irons 10-15 years prior. It's not night and day, but is noticeable. I actually get more into the turf with my MP-32's than with a less forgiving and narrower MP-18.

 

The OEM's are getting a lot better with a lot of the players distance/players game improvement. I had the t100's for a while and could have easily played them, I just wasn't ready to make the change. 

 

To be honest, my equipment changes haven't actually led to better scores. I'm sure if I stuck 60g graphite in my irons it would screw me up, but within reason I could play a lot of different irons.

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2 hours ago, rsballer10 said:

 

Sole width + camber affects contact point on the face. While a wider body club is more forgiving on low strikes, I also get more of them.

 

I actually had an adjustment period with my newer MP-18's because of the additional camber, compared to irons 10-15 years prior. It's not night and day, but is noticeable. I actually get more into the turf with my MP-32's than with a less forgiving and narrower MP-18.

 

The OEM's are getting a lot better with a lot of the players distance/players game improvement. I had the t100's for a while and could have easily played them, I just wasn't ready to make the change. 

 

To be honest, my equipment changes haven't actually led to better scores. I'm sure if I stuck 60g graphite in my irons it would screw me up, but within reason I could play a lot of different irons.

 

I think you mean "depth".

 

As I understand it, sole width is heel to toe. Sole depth is front to back, and has more to do with forgiveness, IMO, than club width although pretty much everything contributes something to sweet spot location.

 

And I'm not sure you addressed the post you quoted about "turf interaction",,,,,,,,,, which kinda sorta confuses me as well. Ball contact first, yes ?

 

Camber is interesting though and while everything about the design of the head affects something I'm thinking it would be awfully difficult to recognize the difference entering the ground by camber,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but maybe I'm just not sensitive to that sort of thing.

 

As for turf interaction,,,,,,,,,, I guess to me, we talking milometers, which can make a difference. A difference we can tell ? 'nother story. 🙃

 

I've mostly played deep sole irons. I used to have a steep angle of attack. Didn't notice any difference regarding sole width or effective bounce.

 

I now play one of the deepest soles ever and I've shallowed out my swing and I don't see much, if any, difference in "turf interaction".

 

Seems to me the difference would be if one plays mostly on firm to very firm ground. Playing on that sort of surface I think I might have problems with my deep soles. A "few" milometers fat and the club bounces into the ball - bladed ball city.

 

On medium to softer turf though, that wide sole and its bounce, glides through almost as if there were no ground there and results in a (fairly) normal shot.

 

Other than that ? Nothing noticeable,,,,,,, to ME,,,,,,, :classic_wink:

 

 

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14 hours ago, ShowMe said:

 

I hear you, but this is another thing I don't quite understand.  If you hit the ball first and then the turf, why does the sole size even matter?  Are you talking about if you hit it a little fat, behind the ball?

 

Paging @bladehunter.   🙂

 

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22 hours ago, bryanwmilburn said:

I love the idea of playing GI irons, but as a high ball hitter with speed, I can't come to grips with putting something in the bag that has tech built in to make the ball go high. Those early spring rounds when it's windy really exposes the high fliers.

My Clevelands don't go any higher than my old irons. They do go straighter, and I seldom hit them fat or thin. If you're worried about going too high get shafts with a mid or low launch.

 

Quote

I hear you, but this is another thing I don't quite understand.  If you hit the ball first and then the turf, why does the sole size even matter?  Are you talking about if you hit it a little fat, behind the ball?

The longer sole puts mass lower and further back, increasing MOI, which lowers the club head tendency to twist off-line both in the swing and at the point of contact. That makes them more accurate, and more forgiving of a bad swing.

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Just to exemplify what I already said:

Today I broke 80 for the first time since I was a young man. And my hcp is at all time low.

Some of it is the short game (been playing a lot during Corona and working from home),

but my G425s certainly are a part of the "success".

I feel so safe standing over a 150 yard shot, knowing that it will hit the green (unless I do something really bad).

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15 hours ago, ShowMe said:

 

I hear you, but this is another thing I don't quite understand.  If you hit the ball first and then the turf, why does the sole size even matter?  Are you talking about if you hit it a little fat, behind the ball?

 

that is my miss as well.  Fat and steep; thin clubs can bail you out here

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4 hours ago, rsballer10 said:

 

Sole width + camber affects contact point on the face. While a wider body club is more forgiving on low strikes, I also get more of them.

 

I actually had an adjustment period with my newer MP-18's because of the additional camber, compared to irons 10-15 years prior. It's not night and day, but is noticeable. I actually get more into the turf with my MP-32's than with a less forgiving and narrower MP-18.

 

The OEM's are getting a lot better with a lot of the players distance/players game improvement. I had the t100's for a while and could have easily played them, I just wasn't ready to make the change. 

 

To be honest, my equipment changes haven't actually led to better scores. I'm sure if I stuck 60g graphite in my irons it would screw me up, but within reason I could play a lot of different irons.

 

Yeah, I'm still not understanding.  Why would sole width or camber affect the contact point on the face if you are hitting the ball first, then the turf?

 

I understand how bounce can make a difference, but not sole width or camber.  Do you have any specific details on how sole width and camber make a difference?  Genuinely curious...  

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45 minutes ago, barnum1 said:

Just to exemplify what I already said:

Today I broke 80 for the first time since I was a young man. And my hcp is at all time low.

Some of it is the short game (been playing a lot during Corona and working from home),

but my G425s certainly are a part of the "success".

I feel so safe standing over a 150 yard shot, knowing that it will hit the green (unless I do something really bad).

 

Nice!

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48 minutes ago, RoyalMustang said:

 

that is my miss as well.  Fat and steep; thin clubs can bail you out here

 

Hmmm... always been my perception that GI soles help with fat and steep. Most weekend hacks that slice the ball are steep and wider soles help minimize the damage. Just like in wedges, like Vokey, when they ask if you are a picker or a digger, if you're a digger they recommend wider soles with more bounce (just like GI clubs). 

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2 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Paging @bladehunter.   🙂

 

It matters because you’re delivery will change due to expectation of turf interaction.  If the expectation isn’t met , you’ll change to try to make it happen.  Plus - a lot of these wide soles irons have a very high vertical COG.  You have to come in steep to get the Vcog to the equator of the ball. 
 

in short.  Take a poorly fit club and hand it to a good player. He will almost immediately try to figure out how to hit it flush. Flush meaning middle of the horizontal cog and on the vertical cog.  Around where they meet. This spot is not the same on all or even most irons.  It will move up and down the face mostly. And sometimes in to the heel . Same exact delivery won’t find the perfect spot on each face.  

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On 9/14/2021 at 2:39 AM, barnum1 said:

I can relate very much to this. I went from i20 to G425 and my misses are much better. (Stock Alta CB regular graphite shafts.)

I do feel though that I have to work harder at "getting through the ball", it's as if the club heads are heavier than my old i20s.

 

And of course, occassionally I still dream about getting a softer forged club, like the ZX5s that I tried recently...

I really can’t imagine something easier to hit and play well with while still getting the soft feel from a shot nutted than my ZX5’s.

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