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Whats the ruling on this bunker situation?


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I can't find anything within Rule 12 to account for this.

 

Found myself in an extreme bunker lie on the side of a huge Bandon links bunker face with tons of sand. The ball was slightly plugged.

 

When moving into the only reasonable address position above the ball, it triggered a sand avalanche where a couple gallons of sand rolled over the ball, completely covering it. 

 

Do I have to play it as it lies after that? It wasn't a competitive round so it didn't matter a lot but I was really curious what the correct ruling is here as I truly had no clue

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Because you worsened your own lie, there's nothing you can do about it but there's no penalty (assuming you didn't cause the ball to move in the process). Play the ball as it lies or take relief for an unplayable ball.

 

https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-8#8-1d

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Yep, sounds like a situation that had unplayable written all over it =>  +1 pen to drop in the bunker (either 2 cl or back on line) or +2 pen to get out of the bunker back on the line

 

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Thanks for the info everybody. I figured this might be the case but that seems horribly penal. There was no way to address the ball without that happening but I suppose that's why you're not supposed to hit it there

 

I'd be interested to see one of the more crafty tour professionals call a rules official over for this one and see what happens

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53 minutes ago, jobin said:

I thought the player was always entitled to see a portion of the ball.  If covered/buried in a sand bunker then push a bit of sand off the top of the ball.

See it. play it.

 

R7.1 talks about that.

 

The question then becomes, can the player find and identify their ball and then subsequently "un-find" it? (In this case by the accidentally disturbed sand covering up the ball.) 

 

If so, are they entitled to move sand to "re-find" and "re-identify" it again? I rather doubt it, but it's a question worth considering. 

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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Different take here. In steep, loose sand as described it is simply not possible for that process to fail to move the ball so there is KVC player caused the ball to move, and the lie has been altered in sand, so the player gets 1 stroke penalty and must replace (9.4b), and the lie MUST be recreated (see 14.2d(1)). Playing the ball without recreating gets the general penalty for wrong place - although the OP suggests it wasn't practical to play as lies anyway.

 

Is this all 'unfair'? Absolutely, this is a dog's breakfast caused by design stupidity or construction failure.  

 

When faced with such a situation, the prescient player recognizes the very high likelihood merely attempting a stance will cause the ball to move, getting a penalty and still leaving the player in a terrible position. That clever dude/dudess takes an unplayable and at least rescues a better next stroke for the same cost.

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28 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

R7.1 talks about that.

 

The question then becomes, can the player find and identify their ball and then subsequently "un-find" it? (In this case by the accidentally disturbed sand covering up the ball.) 

 

If so, are they entitled to move sand to "re-find" and "re-identify" it again? I rather doubt it, but it's a question worth considering. 

Agree this could raise interesting angles as you identify. But if the player caused the ball to move, which I suggest would be the case, this issue doesn't bite.

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4 minutes ago, antip said:

Agree this could raise interesting angles as you identify. But if the player caused the ball to move, which I suggest would be the case, this issue doesn't bite.

 

In my mind, I'd decided that R9 ball movement was not an issue until the player had "re-found" the ball. Even then, it might be difficult (or it might be easy) to say if the ball had moved.

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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48 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

In my mind, I'd decided that R9 ball movement was not an issue until the player had "re-found" the ball. Even then, it might be difficult (or it might be easy) to say if the ball had moved.

I'm as confident as I can be it is the other way around. Ball was identified and then moved. Replacing gets primacy. If you accidentally move your ball and it rolls somewhere irretrievable or unfindable such as OOB or into PA, just put another ball in play. 

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1 hour ago, antip said:

Different take here. In steep, loose sand as described it is simply not possible for that process to fail to move the ball so there is KVC player caused the ball to move, and the lie has been altered in sand, so the player gets 1 stroke penalty and must replace (9.4b), and the lie MUST be recreated (see 14.2d(1)). Playing the ball without recreating gets the general penalty for wrong place - although the OP suggests it wasn't practical to play as lies anyway.

 

Is this all 'unfair'? Absolutely, this is a dog's breakfast caused by design stupidity or construction failure.  

 

When faced with such a situation, the prescient player recognizes the very high likelihood merely attempting a stance will cause the ball to move, getting a penalty and still leaving the player in a terrible position. That clever dude/dudess takes an unplayable and at least rescues a better next stroke for the same cost.

That was my take too.   I don't think there can be any doubt the ball was moved.

 

It could be that stroke and distance is the best way out depending on the circumstances of the previous shot..   Out of the bunker for one stroke, no hassle of recreating the lie or risk of the "landslip" happening again.

 

 

 

Edited by Colin L
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4 minutes ago, antip said:

I'm as confident as I can be it is the other way around. Ball was identified and then moved. Replacing gets primacy. If you accidentally move your ball and it rolls somewhere irretrievable or unfindable such as OOB or into PA, just put another ball in play. 

 

OP might sweep away some sand and declare that the ball was way up there and is now way down there. (That's easy . . . we know what to do; R9 is our friend.)


Or, OP might sweep away some sand and within three minutes, "re-find" the ball and observe that this is where it was and, guess what, it's just where I expected to "re-find" it! (Is this okay? Are we operating in R7land?)

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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1 hour ago, sui generis said:

 

OP might sweep away some sand and declare that the ball was way up there and is now way down there. (That's easy . . . we know what to do; R9 is our friend.)


Or, OP might sweep away some sand and within three minutes, "re-find" the ball and observe that this is where it was and, guess what, it's just where I expected to "re-find" it! (Is this okay? Are we operating in R7land?)

You're stretching. I can't conceive of that ball not being moved in the steep/loose sand scenario.

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6 hours ago, antip said:

You're stretching. I can't conceive of that ball not being moved in the steep/loose sand scenario.

 

Perhaps. However, the Definition requires the "naked eye" confirmation of movement, does it not? I think OP has a duty to perform a reasonable search and he'll find what he finds.

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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32 minutes ago, limegreengent said:

Sui Generis

If you were playing and a couple of gallons of sand

( as stated) swept down ontop of your ball would you penalise yourself.?

It's as simple as that.

 

 

Maybe. But, only after I'd carefully swept away enough sand to re-find and re-identify my ball, and then only if it had moved. If it had moved I would apply R9.4.

 

What if I didn't attempt to re-find my ball? Now, it's R18 time. The good bits (b &c) of R19 require that I know the location of the ball, so R19 isn't helpful.

 

 

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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6 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Maybe. But, only after I'd carefully swept away enough sand to re-find and re-identify my ball, and then only if it had moved. If it had moved I would apply R9.4.

 

What if I didn't attempt to re-find my ball? Now, it's R18 time. The good bits (b &c) of R19 require that I know the location of the ball, so R19 isn't helpful.

 

 

Not so. The ball has moved and you caused it. Ball needs to be replaced. You don't need to find it and you don't need to replace if you are going to proceed to unplayable ball because the position of the ball and the lie was precisely known. This is 14.2/1 in operation. Carry on with unplayable, 1SP 9.4b and a further 1SP for rule 19 relief.

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9 minutes ago, antip said:

Not so. The ball has moved and you caused it. Ball needs to be replaced. You don't need to find it and you don't need to replace if you are going to proceed to unplayable ball because the position of the ball and the lie was precisely known. This is 14.2/1 in operation. Carry on with unplayable, 1SP 9.4b and a further 1SP for rule 19 relief.

 

Surely one can find their ball and then subsequently lose it. What about the player who searches in high grass and finds their ball. They then walk away to get a club and then cannot relocate it again? No unplayable for them, right? Isn't that a lost ball?

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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1 hour ago, sui generis said:

 

Surely one can find their ball and then subsequently lose it. What about the player who searches in high grass and finds their ball. They then walk away to get a club and then cannot relocate it again? No unplayable for them, right? Isn't that a lost ball?

Yes (see bottom of p256); but that scenario has no relevance to the OP in which a ball in play was accidentally moved and, on your variation, then accidentally lost (by avalanche). In your scenario, the 14.2a Exception applies (first bullet point).

 

 

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2 hours ago, antip said:

Yes (see bottom of p256); but that scenario has no relevance to the OP in which a ball in play was accidentally moved and, on your variation, then accidentally lost (by avalanche). In your scenario, the 14.2a Exception applies (first bullet point).

 

 

 

OP didn't say that the ball had moved, merely that he could no longer see the ball. Surely, in this case, Op would have to re-find the ball to know whether it had moved. I don't think that it's a safe assumption that the ball was moved.

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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2 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

OP didn't say that the ball had moved, merely that he could no longer see the ball. Surely, in this case, Op would have to re-find the ball to know whether it had moved. I don't think that it's a safe assumption that the ball was moved.

The OP has brought. down a bucket load of sand with his size 10s on top of a ball lying on a slope on sand and you think it feasible that the ball hasn't moved?  🥴   And how, in practical terms are you going to establish anything by uncovering the ball?

The presumption when a ball is stood on on ordinary ground  is that it has moved  at least vertically. That seems a greater assumption than this. 

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34 minutes ago, Colin L said:

The OP has brought. down a bucket load of sand with his size 10s on top of a ball lying on a slope on sand and you think it feasible that the ball hasn't moved?  🥴   And how, in practical terms are you going to establish anything by uncovering the ball?

The presumption when a ball is stood on on ordinary ground  is that it has moved  at least vertically. That seems a greater assumption than this. 

 

And, if I were the player and you were the referee, I'd be most unhappy with your 9.4 unless I was permitted to carefully attempt to uncover the ball to see if it had moved.

 

I know it was right about here X and my distinctive Sharpie marking, a ❤, was facing up. When we find the ball if it's not as I describe, then slap me with 1 PS, you mean old man, and I'll replace it and play on. 😉

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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I guess we just have a very different idea of the movement of sand.  I just can't visualise an avalanche of sand that is confined to a layer  that somehow slides over the ball without moving it rather than being a body of sand which moves downhill, taking the ball with it.    I can't see either how once the movement is over and you uncover the ball you can have  any sort of reference point against which to judge whether the location of the ball has changed.

 

The OP just needed to hope for a lucky as to who turned up to give him a ruling, Mr Nice American rather than Mr Mean Old Scot.  🙂 

 

 

Edited by Colin L
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I see it as inappropriate for the referee to decide without evidence what happened to the ball which could be seen one minute and could not be seen the next, when a simple search by the player could yield a result. In any event, a search which found the ball, whether moved or not, would be a far better outcome than a lost ball.

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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The main evidence would be the amount of sand displaced by the foot above it. How would  you account for the sand moving over the ball without exerting any sideways, downhill pressure?

 

 I have no confidence in a search yielding a result.  What would be your reference point on which to base the judgment?

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13 minutes ago, Colin L said:

What would be your reference point on which to base the judgment?

 

Wouldn't the player have a pretty good idea where to look?

 

Anyway, mean old Scot, says. "Tough luck laddie, we're no wastin' time a lookin' fer yer ball. It's a lost ball, get ye  back to the tee (or wherever)!

 

ps Aren't we way past your bedtime? Or, perhaps you're on holiday in Florida?

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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Inertia-

1. a tendency to do nothing or to remain unchanged
2.a property of matter by which it continues in its existing state of rest or uniform motion in a straight line, unless that state is changed by an external force.
 
Friction-
1. the resistance that one surface or object encounters when moving over another.
2. conflict or animosity caused by a clash of wills, temperaments, or opinions.
 
I think I can see the relevance of all the above in this discussion. 😉
 
 
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On 9/14/2021 at 12:52 PM, Colin L said:

The OP has brought. down a bucket load of sand with his size 10s on top of a ball lying on a slope on sand

 

I haven't revisited this thread in a while but I'll have you know they're size 14/15

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