Graphite shafts in vintage clubs

[PhillipG78]

As I'm getting older I'm considering moving to graphite shafts in the 115g-125g range for my vintage clubs. Anyone here do that? 

[raggal62]

Not in that weight range, but have reshafted many vintage irons with modern graphite. Also a few persimmon but but that's a little more involved.

[PhillipG78]

I don't have persimmons im old school but not that old school 

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

16 hours ago, raggal62 said:

Not in that weight range, but have reshafted many vintage irons with modern graphite. Also a few persimmon but but that's a little more involved.

 

About half of my persimmon woods already have graphite shafts in them. Many Japanese seem to have made the switch to graphite earlier than Europe and the USA. I certainly don't recall anyone playing graphite shafted persimmon woods when I started playing in the UK, although many got graphite shafts when they switched to metal woods (This would be around the early Nineties*).

 

On auction sites here (Japan), I see a few old iron sets with graphite. Probably nothing from the Eighties, but certainly some from the Nineties. Not overly common, but not that uncommon either. Must have cost a fair bit back in the day.

 

* edit: thinking back, I think the majority of people at my club and those I played against in the city's junior league were switching to graphite-shafted drivers by the late Eighties. I reckon almost every junior I played against back then had a Taylormade driver (Burner?) with a graphite shaft. I certainly had one, bought second hand to replace my persimmon Mizuno that got stolen.

Edited September 16, 2021 by No_Catchy_Nickname
Clarity

[NRJyzr]

Two of my Golden Ram sets have graphite shafts in them.  NV105 in TW276 set, RIP Tour 115 in the TW282 set.  Considering Steelfiber 95 in another set.

 

I wouldn't hesitate to do this with any of my sets.  I more or less need to use graphite shafts if I want to play golf, makes no sense (to me) to avoid the sets I wish to use because they were originally offered with shafts that are less friendly to my elbows and wrists.

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by NRJyzr

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

I popped an ex Wilson 2.8 Firestick into a Joe Powell 3 wood. Works pretty well.

 

[PhillipG78]

6 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

Two of my Golden Ram sets have graphite shafts in them.  NV105 in TW276 set, RIP Tour 115 in the TW282 set.  Considering Steelfiber 95 in another set.

 

I wouldn't hesitate to do this with any of my sets.  I more or less need to use graphite shafts if I want to play golf, makes no sense (to me) to avoid the sets I wish to use because they were originally offered with shafts that are less friendly to my elbows and wrists.

 

Adila NV105? I'm not familiar with RIP tour 115

[NRJyzr]

9 minutes ago, PhillipG78 said:

Adila NV105? I'm not familiar with RIP tour 115

 

Both are discontinued, unfortunately.  The NV 105 (aka NV MLTi) came out in mid-00's decade, I managed to find some about four or five years ago.  Installed them in 2017, have used them off and on since.

 

Thr RIP Tours (also Aldila) appeared 8 or 9 years ago, a couple guys used them on Tour.  They came in 90g and 115g models.  They were also noted for being a flex (or more) stiffer than something like DG (Boo Weekley used the Stiff flex).  I was a DGS user, my set of RIP Tours are regular flex.  This may have led to their departure from the market.  Discontinued 3-4 years ago.

 

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by NRJyzr

[PhillipG78]

6 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Both are discontinued, unfortunately.  The NV 105 (aka NV MLTi) came out in mid-00's decade, I managed to find some about four or five years ago.  Installed them in 2017, have used them off and on since.

 

Thr RIP Tours (also Aldila) appeared 8 or 9 years ago, a couple guys used them on Tour.  They came in 90g and 115g models.  They were also noted for being a flex (or more) stiffer than something like DG (Boo Weekley used the Stiff flex).  I was a DGS user, my set of RIP Tours are regular flex.  This may have led to their departure from the market.  Discontinued 3-4 years ago.

 

 

Any suggestions on some 105+ S flex or X flex graphite shafts I can find on ebay for decent price? 

[PhillipG78]

I'm considering Aerotech anyone have experience with those?

[NRJyzr]

There are a couple different types of shafts from Aerotech.  Steelfiber i series, and the FC series.  The FC are softer tipped and supposed to be flighted; based on your posts, I wouldn't think they would be a great fit.  The heavier i series shafts (i95, i110, i125) are patterned after DG.  The i95 is almost exactly like DGR and DGS.  The i110 swingweights a bit lighter due to its higher balance point, and is what you'd get if you stiffened the bottom half of the DG shaft.  The i125 has a more "normal" balance point and like the 110, has a stiffer bottom half than the same flex DG.

 

I'm using the i125 stiff in a couple wedges, both gap wedges.  Quite stable.  Probably a bit much for my now-slower swing if I wanted to play them throughout the set.  I'm a DGS player these days, on the way down from DGX a few years ago.  I can feel the greater bottom section stability in the swing, or like to think I do, LOL, but it still has a DG-like feel in the upper half of the shaft.

 

Recoil shafts are more like KBS Tours, stiffer in the butt section, maybe a bit softer in the tip.  It's not a perfect analogy.  They're softer tipped than Steelfibers with a higher trajectory, IMHO of course.  They're also about $7-8 cheaper than the Steelfibers.

 

Another rather good option would be the Fujikura Pro iron shafts, specifically the 115 Tour Spec.  They offer both stiff and X in TS.  These got a fair amount of buzz a few years ago here on WRX.  Some pretty big hitters gave them a ride, and seemed to like them, before falling prey to their inner equipment ho habits.  The one downside, they are parallel tip, but a good clubmaker can taper the tips for you.  Fuji recommends this for tapered use.  They *do* need to be tip trimmed before being tapered.  🙂   These are $45 each at Billy Bob's Golf.  Just bought a couple myself, 115 TS stiff, but haven't done anything with them yet.

 

If you're a Project X fan, the Catalyst would be worth a look, in the 100g weight.  If that's heavy enough for you.  The Catalyst is said to mimic the PX profile, just lighter.  Such as I remember pricing, they're not too pricey.

 

If you really want to spend, you could check out Paderson Kinetixx Ballistic 110 shafts, Recoil Prototypes in 110 or 125, or the Mitsubishi MMT 125.  The MMT 125 in TX is based on the DGX profile.  All three of these are about $80 a shaft.  Painful.  😉

 

[Foozle]

I know very little about shaft technology but have been intrigued by this new fangled graphite material. I have never played graphite but a few graphite shafted persimmons have found their way into my collection, the most recent being a Louisville Smart Driver.

Yesterday I decided to do some experimentation and have some fun on the range. What I wanted to find out was the difference between my current steel shafted driver and a similar sized persimmon head with longer graphite shaft and then the ultimate in persimmon development with a 250cc head on a graphite shaft. I hit different coloured balls with each to give a clear pattern with each club.

I appreciate this is not very scientific as the shafts are effectively random and not in any way fitted to me but the results were interesting.

My Spalding Tour Edition driver (43" S300) was the shortest but with tightest dispersal at +/- 10yds or so from the centre line, left bias.

The similarly sized Paul Gibson (45" Aldila Reg) feels noticeably heavier and takes some effort to swing, hence "The Beast!". Hits were less consistent but the good ones out drove the Spalding by perhaps 10 - 15 yards. Dispersal went out to +/- 20 yards or so. Would I swap the consistency of the Spalding for the extra distance - no!

The Smart Driver (45" Grafalloy Pro-Lite) was interesting. The whole club felt much lighter than the Gibson, despite the larger head. Louisville describe it as solid persimmon but I suspect it must be cork filled? It felt much more manageable than the Gibson. However, it offered no more distance advantage and dispersal went out to +/- 30 yards, right bias!

The curious thing with the Smart is that it sets up closed. My natural shape is a draw so I feared the worst! The shape it produced was actually a high arcing fade/slice!? Not sure how that works or if there is anything in the shaft torque which would explain it?

Anyway, long story short, my conclusion was that there is a distance advantage with graphite but at the expense of accuracy.

I recently did a similar test on my Taylormade Tour Spoon. I use this club in winter when I tuck my persimmons away and go down to a short set, the Tour Spoon is very versatile as a driver/fairway/rescue single wood. I managed to find one with a gold graphite or "boron" shaft as we called them back in the day. The boron shafted club felt much lighter than the steel shafted one to the extent I struggled to feel where the head was and found it harder to hit. When I did hit it, there was a marginal distance advantage but again not enough to make the change from the more consistent steel shafted club.

Just my musings as I idled away an hour or so on the range. Keen to hear other experiences / opinions on the subject?

 

[raggal62]

Foozie it might not be the shaft material itself but the added 2" length. Many golfers struggle with consistency when it comes to playing longer drivers. Try applying impact tape to the faces next time out to determine ball strikes. You might try choking up a couple of inches and see if that helps too.

[NRJyzr]

Foozle, the various differences could be related to the club length, the overall static weight, swingweight, shaft flex, and even shaft profile.  There are a lot of variables in the three clubs you tested.

 

The Prolite shaft is very light, probably half the weight of the DG shaft in your Spalding.  Could be its just too light for you.  <shrug>

 

You can ignore shaft torque, it's a non-player anymore.  It was a problem with early graphite, but it's been addressed across the shaft market, and hasn't been an issue for a couple dozen years or more.

 

The Smart Driver isn't hollow, such as I've seen.  You'll notice there's almost no sole plate, compared to the others.  My Smart Driver is similar.  I've actually seen what looks like a graphite piece on some larger persimmons (maybe just a darkened metal).  This all is probably because the size of the clubhead is such that the weight is enough without adding much/anymetal to the sole.

 

Shaft length is a big player in dispersion.  For most, the longer the club, the greater the dispersion.

 

A few random thoughts in the early morning.

 

[Foozle]

Regal62 and NRJyzr, Thanks for the comments and advice. As stated, I don't fully understand shaft technology and you have helped demonstrate just how technical and complex an area this is!

I do feel it is the weight difference more than the length that is the issue. That is partly why I mentioned the earlier trial with the Taylormade Tour Spoon as both those clubs were of identical length and gave the same result of marginal distance gain but greater dispersal.

Weight was certainly the most noticeable difference yesterday. The Gibson feels very heavy and unweildy. It will have a relatively early graphite shaft. BTW, I cannot believe it is of Reg flex as I can barely flex it over my knee never mind fully load it in a swing! Overall it just feels a very blunt instrument to use.

Conversely, the Smart Driver is extremely light - as NRJyzr suggests, possibly too light. Given the size of the head, I find it incredible that the weight difference is purely down to the shaft unless it is a question of balance and swingweight? Unfortunately I don't have a swingweight gauge to test nor scales to test overall weight - Mrs Foozle reacts very badly if she sees me anywhere near her kitchen scales! 😁

To complete the test I should have taken a fourth driver the same length as my Spalding but with graphite shaft. I do have options of Honma, MacGregor and Kikidas to do that.

At the moment I think I am too died in the wool steel shaft user. I am accustomed to the weight and feel ( and length) - I generally like feeling a bit of weight in my clubs. The Spalding just feels right for me as a well balanced tool I can feel confident with - and occasionally hit well!😁

[NRJyzr]

On 9/19/2021 at 8:09 AM, Foozle said:

Conversely, the Smart Driver is extremely light - as NRJyzr suggests, possibly too light. Given the size of the head, I find it incredible that the weight difference is purely down to the shaft unless it is a question of balance and swingweight?

 

It very much could well be down to merely static weight.  

 

This could be a little lengthy...

 

For many years, most of us have used swingweight as a club weighting theory.  However, it's really just a measurement of how the clubhead is balanced across a 14" fulcrum.  Depending on what you do with how the weight is distributed, you can make a steel beam swingweight pretty light.  I wouldn't want to try swing it.  🙂

 

Another theory that's gained much traction in recent years is using Moment of Inertia, with respect to the swing.  MOI matching takes into account the overall weight of the club, as well as the individual components.  You could take different irons or wedges, of different static weights and make them swing similarly by what you do with the clubhead weight, in combination with the shaft weight. 

 

Drivers/woods and irons would be viewed separately, I'll add.

 

Please realize this is a very half-assed, and likely inaccurate, explanation of the principle.  I only know enough about this to be dangerous.

 

All of this is really only preamble to the point I'm trying to reach...  there is an idea proposed by Dave Tutelman for instances where you are reducing shaft weight.  How can I make a lighter club feel similarly in the swing as a heavier club that one is using.  His idea is to take one third of the decrease in shaft weight and add it back to the clubhead.

 

So let's look at the Spalding to Smart Driver example.  The DG shaft in the Spalding is likely around 124g.  The Prolite is around 65g.  Using the Dave Tutelman concept, in order for the Smart Driver to feel similarly to the Spalding, you would need to add one third of that 60g difference, which would be 20g.  Would increase the swingweight by more than 10 pts, and soften the club by a full flex or so.

 

I'm throwing this out here to help illustrate why you might have trouble hitting that club, if you really like hitting the Spalding.  🙂

 

Apologies for the length

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by NRJyzr

[Foozle]

8 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

It very much could well be down to merely static weight.  

 

This could be a little lengthy...

 

For many years, most of us have used swingweight as a club weighting theory.  However, it's really just a measurement of how the clubhead is balanced with a 14" fulcrum.  Depending on what you do with how the weight is distributed, you can make a steel beam swingweight pretty light.  I wouldn't want to try swing it.  🙂

 

Another theory that's gained much traction in recent years is using Moment of Inertia, with respect to the swing.  MOI matching takes into account the overall weight of the club, as well as the individual components.  You could take different irons or wedges, of different static weights and make them swing similarly by what you do with the clubhead weight, in combination with the shaft weight. 

 

Drivers/woods and irons would be viewed separately, I'll add.

 

Please realize this is a very half-assed, and likely inaccurate, explanation of the principle.  I only know enough about this to be dangerous.

 

All of this is really only preamble to the point I'm trying to reach...  there is an idea proposed by Dave Tutelman for instances where you are reducing shaft weight.  How can I make a lighter club feel similarly in the swing as a heavier club that one is using.  His idea is to take one third of the decrease in shaft weight and add it back to the clubhead.

 

So let's look at the Spalding to Smart Driver example.  The DG shaft in the Spalding is likely around 124g.  The Prolite is around 65g.  Using the Dave Tutelman concept, in order for the Smart Driver to feel similarly to the Spalding, you would need to add one third of that 60g difference, which would be 20g.  Would increase the swingweight by more than 10 pts, and soften the club by a full flex or so.

 

I'm throwing this out here to help illustrate why you might have trouble hitting that club, if you really like hitting the Spalding.  🙂

 

Apologies for the length

 

Wow! Thanks! Very interesting and insightful! Also quite daunting!

I have always just picked up a club, given it a waggle and, if it feels right, hit it! Trying to understand why it feels right might be too much for my limited and diminishing grey matter to handle!

I have Tom Wishon's book on "The Search for the Perfect Golf Club". I have only really skimmed it at present but can see how technical it is. However, there is a section entitled,"Sometimes it is the archer and not the bow" so perhaps that is the chapter I need to read first! 

I can see that trying to understand all this science may scramble my mind so perhaps best go back to waggling! 

BTW if you want to experience trying to swing a steel beam, I will lend you the Gibson!😁

 

[pingfool]

On 9/16/2021 at 8:10 PM, PhillipG78 said:

I'm considering Aerotech anyone have experience with those?

had steel fiber i110 put in isi nickel set over the winter. 
I was happy with the work done. And they feel great. Just don’t go anywhere. At least a club short from G710

 

[NRJyzr]

36 minutes ago, pingfool said:

had steel fiber i110 put in isi nickel set over the winter. 
I was happy with the work done. And they feel great. Just don’t go anywhere. At least a club short from G710

 

 

Of course they're a club shorter, the G710 7 iron is stronger lofted than the ISI 6 iron.

 

Club number is meaningless, loft is what determines distance for your swing (with spin/launch seasoning to taste).

 

Edited September 19, 2021 by NRJyzr
new tablet, same autocorrect

[NRJyzr]

1 hour ago, Foozle said:

if you want to experience trying to swing a steel beam, I will lend you the Gibson!😁

 

When I bought my MacGregor M09T reissue, it was 45" long with a Dynamic stiff shaft.  I wondered who would have built one in thus manner, turned out to have been extended 1.5" to 2".  

 

I'm guessing your Gibson would feel something like that?  😁😉

 

Unrelated but possibly of interest...  I have put a leather grip on my NV105 shafted 1 iron, and removed some of the lead tape to match up with my TW276 set, so I can take it to the course today.  It's a Vibration Matched 1 iron, I'm using it as a stand-in for the set until I can reshaft the TW276 1 iron I was able to track on ebay.  

 

[Foozle]

1 hour ago, NRJyzr said:

 

When I bought my MacGregor M09T reissue, it was 45" long with a Dynamic stiff shaft.  I wondered who would have built one in thus manner, turned out to have been extended 1.5" to 2".  

 

I'm guessing your Gibson would feel something like that?  😁😉

 

Unrelated but possibly of interest...  I have put a leather grip on my NV105 shafted 1 iron, and removed some of the lead tape to match up with my TW276 set, so I can take it to the course today.  It's a Vibration Matched 1 iron, I'm using it as a stand-in for the set until I can reshaft the TW276 1 iron I was able to track on ebay.  

 

Ahh! Ram! Now we are talking!

Sounds fantastic. I have  a FM 1 iron but was never lucky enough to track down an 80-82 TG 1 iron. 

As you may be aware, my beloved Tour Grinds (2-PW) are worn out and had to be retired. However  I have recently picked up a set in good condition (3-Pw) but sadly missing the 9 iron. Hoping to rekindle the love affair in the very near future!

[NRJyzr]

18 hours ago, Foozle said:

Ahh! Ram! Now we are talking!

Sounds fantastic. I have  a FM 1 iron but was never lucky enough to track down an 80-82 TG 1 iron. 

As you may be aware, my beloved Tour Grinds (2-PW) are worn out and had to be retired. However  I have recently picked up a set in good condition (3-Pw) but sadly missing the 9 iron. Hoping to rekindle the love affair in the very near future!

 

I've seen the odd 80 Tour Grind 1 iron on ebay, but never went in for any of them.  They show up occasionally, but its very hit or miss.

 

For my TW276 set, my plan is to use it not unlike a 2 iron.  My set is 21-49 for 3-pw, I'll set it at 18.  I may also set a ProSet 2i at that loft, use it in the rotation.

 

The 1 iron yesterday was largely a success.  I managed to slap one off the hosel, but I've shown I can do that with my hybrid as well, LOL.  Hit it off the tee a few times, and it was lovely on the 196 yd par 3, which was playing into a 20mph wind.  

 

We'll see if I keep going with it.  🤔😊

 

[Foozle]

22 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

 

I've seen the odd 80 Tour Grind 1 iron on ebay, but never went in for any of them.  They show up occasionally, but its very hit or miss.

 

For my TW276 set, my plan is to use it not unlike a 2 iron.  My set is 21-49 for 3-pw, I'll set it at 18.  I may also set a ProSet 2i at that loft, use it in the rotation.

 

The 1 iron yesterday was largely a success.  I managed to slap one off the hosel, but I've shown I can do that with my hybrid as well, LOL.  Hit it off the tee a few times, and it was lovely on the 196 yd par 3, which was playing into a 20mph wind.  

 

We'll see if I keep going with it.  🤔😊

 

We are both very easily sidetracked by Ram equipment!

Hope you persevere with the 1 iron, nothing quite like a pure 1 iron into the wind! I don't know if it is because I am tall or the fact that I have always carried a 1 or 2 iron in my bag but I don't find them as intimidating or difficult to hit as Lee Trevino famously quipped!

To try and bring us back on topic for this thread, you mention your hybrid. I have never had or hit a hybrid until last week when I picked up a Louisville persimmon hybrid along with the Smart Driver tested above. Being persimmon it doesn't offend the purest in me - even with its graphite shaft!

Nice and easy to hit but not sure it will find a place in my bag as it can't do what a 1 or 2 iron can do, nor does it do anything my 5 wood can't do? 

[NRJyzr]

29 minutes ago, Foozle said:

To try and bring us back on topic for this thread, you mention your hybrid. I have never had or hit a hybrid until last week when I picked up a Louisville persimmon hybrid along with the Smart Driver tested above. Being persimmon it doesn't offend the purest in me - even with its graphite shaft

 

I remember when those were released by Louisville Golf.  It was interesting, but those of us who are inclined to use persimmons tend to gravitate towards woods to replace irons.  They didn't seem to last long.

 

When I bought my hybrid, I'd intended to get a 3w/5w combo, TM Stage 2 Tours.  2nd Swing didn't have any 5 woods, but they had the hybrids that were in the same lofts (3h at 18.5*).  These particular hybrids are a bit more wood shaped than iron shaped, and are adjustable, which means I could open them.  It's turned out to work quite well.

 

The nice thing about hybrids is they tend to have heavier shafts, and being .370 bore, can go even heavier with various iron shaft options.  I have a steel shaft I'd used in this 3h, and am currently using an NV105 in it.  I've also assembled an RIP Alpha 105 for it.  Even gave consideration to using a Steelfiber 125 with it.

 

Hybrids seem to be one of those clubs where you have to pick your spots with care.  🤔

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by NRJyzr

[NRJyzr]

Being more topical, and likely repetitive, I've picked up a Ram FX ProSet 2 iron that I'll be assembling with graphite in order to use it as an option with my Golden Rams.  It'll be for those days I'm feeling a bit less rugged.  😉