100 lb club at D3 swingweight... just add grip weight meme

[Howard_Jones]

10 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

As I see it, the most common harm done by club repair-build shops is when the consumer wants to have heavier weight grips installed and is told by the shop employee "don't worry about swing weight, extra weight at the grip end is held within the hands so it does not effect the balance or feel of the club, you'll be fine". Another common (potential) problem is when repair shop employee  suggests that reducing driver shaft length by an inch or two may help improve the customer's driver shots. Too often the employee proclaims "don't worry about swing weight, just go hit the shorter driver and see how you like it".  

So, in the above cases consumers are walking out of repair-build shops with C8 swing weight iron sets and C7 drivers. These are out of balance clubs which make the game harder than need be.

We cant and should never "reset" a SW value, the instrument was NOT meant for or designed to be used that way, so unless we have a value from a fitting session, we dont know where to go and have to make a new tune up of the club before we know.

Just do the math yourself where you specify each components weight, then do the math for how much of the clubs total wgt that comes from each component. Now do the same numbers, now with more grip weight and reset of SW values. Did the weight of the head as % of total remain the same? Nope, and it never will....not with the SW value we came from.

Total wgt is #2 in importance, we cant just forget that and think we can use the SW scale to get the same balance we had after a modification, that want happen and cant be done using a SW scale.

The largest problems is that most BELIEVE this instrument is useful and can be used like this, but it cant, and it was not designed for that either, and in the end, how many of this players have ever had a fitting session for SW values to start with?...then why reset a value you was never fitted to play?  

Edited October 3, 2021 by Howard_Jones

[Stuart_G]

15 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

As I see it, the most common harm done by club repair-build shops is when the consumer wants to have heavier weight grips installed and is told by the shop employee "don't worry about swing weight, extra weight at the grip end is held within the hands so it does not effect the balance or feel of the club, you'll be fine".

 

There are some cases where it does work out that way and some cases where it doesn't.   The problem is that each "side" is using the cases that match their viewpoint to support their argument.    What they should be doing is realizing that all it really means is that the swing weight scale is not a very good tool to tell you what will happen to the feel with that type of club change.

 

 

[Fairway14]

9 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

The largest problems is that most BELIEVE this instrument is useful and can be used like this, but it cant, and it was not designed for that either, and in the end, how many of this players have ever had a fitting session for SW values to start with?...then why reset a value you was never fitted to play?  

 

I am not a proponent of targeting a specific swing weight. My point is that when club makers/ builders disregard swing weight this can result in an out of balance finished club, for example an E3 SW 7-iron   or a C6 driver.  I believe the equipment companies , repair shops, club builders etc... have an obligation to produce finished clubs that are reasonably well balanced when swung, and the SW scale is useful for measuring that balance.

Remember 90% of people playing golf use poor technique and trying to play with an out of balance club (s) makes the game harder than need be.

[Fairway14]

4 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

There are some cases where it does work out that way and some cases where it doesn't.   The problem is that each "side" is using the cases that match their viewpoint to support their argument.    What they should be doing is realizing that all it really means is that the swing weight scale is not a very good tool to tell you what will happen to the feel with that type of club change.

 

 

 

I understand your perspective that making swings, hitting shots etc... is the best way to determine whether a club (including its balance) is a good fit. This method is perfect for a well skilled player because he/she knows the proper way to swing a club, the way high quality shots look and sound (feel). the role which tempo and rhythm play in making swings and playing shots etc...

However a beginner, poorly skilled player, hacker etc... does not know any of the above things. They don't have enough true knowledge of the swing or game to make productive decisions about equipment  They are out there on the courses flailing away shooting 90 or worse  just trying to make reasonably solid contact with the ball and hoping their shot goes straight. On the golf courses this category of skill level player makes up the overwhelming majority. So I believe the equipment companies, repair shops, builders etc... have an obligation to produce clubs that are reasonably balanced when swung, and the SW scale is useful for measuring that balance.

Remember 10 years ago on golf discussion forums it was trendy for participants to suggest that cutting an inch or two off the driver shaft was helpful, and comments such as "man, I cut my 45.5" stock driver down to 43" and am hitting the center of the face more often , so no loss of distance, and I am hitting more fairways, love it". If another participant inquired about swing weight the poster would usually say " I don't know or care about SW, but the driver feels fine". However, usually  within a few weeks time, the guys who had chopped their driver shaft were no longer playing it. So taking a stock 45" shafted driver at D2 SW , cutting off 1.5" to make it a C3 SW driver creates an out of balance club, one which essentially no player would be able to consistently swing well and, or, produce consistently good shots. Lots of wrecking shafts/clubs can be avoided if the person uses a SW scale to keep the club (s) within a range that results in something reasonably balanced when swung.

[chipa]

I don't adjust my clubs based on SW I used the standard specs to get them at D2, which is close to what I like(D1-4). I do backweight my woods because the inexpensive shafts I buy are too light, but I also add weight to the head. I expect they would still measure at least D1.

[Howard_Jones]

4 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

I am not a proponent of targeting a specific swing weight. My point is that when club makers/ builders disregard swing weight this can result in an out of balance finished club, for example an E3 SW 7-iron   or a C6 driver.  I believe the equipment companies , repair shops, club builders etc... have an obligation to produce finished clubs that are reasonably well balanced when swung, and the SW scale is useful for measuring that balance.

Remember 90% of people playing golf use poor technique and trying to play with an out of balance club (s) makes the game harder than need be.

What you are writing makes no sense at all, you are stuck with the idea that a SW scale can tell us if the balance of the club is good or not, but it cant, and it never could since thats strictly personal.

If your thinking was right, what SW values would represent a "good balance" if the players request for new grips was the OG Jumbomax XL grips, that removes 17.5 SW points vs a standard grip?

A "standard" club who was D2, becomes B4.5 with this grips, so where do you suggest we go here?

Edited October 3, 2021 by Howard_Jones

[Stuart_G]

3 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

I understand your perspective that making swings, hitting shots etc... is the best way to determine whether a club (including its balance) is a good fit. This method is perfect for a well skilled player because he/she knows the proper way to swing a club, the way high quality shots look and sound (feel). the role which tempo and rhythm play in making swings and playing shots etc...

However a beginner, poorly skilled player, hacker etc... does not know any of the above things. They don't have enough true knowledge of the swing or game to make productive decisions about equipment  They are out there on the courses flailing away shooting 90 or worse  just trying to make reasonably solid contact with the ball and hoping their shot goes straight. On the golf courses this category of skill level player makes up the overwhelming majority. So I believe the equipment companies, repair shops, builders etc... have an obligation to produce clubs that are reasonably balanced when swung, and the SW scale is useful for measuring that balance.

 

Sorry but that's not true at all.  The quality of the mechanics has nothing to do with the ability to get a good fit with equipment.    Fitting is completely about fitting the clubs to the players swing regardless of the quality of that swing.  

 

Second, the "balance" as you say is meaningless for the swing.  Balance plays no part in the mechanics of the swing.   

 

On top of that there is no particular configuration of the equipment (however you want to label it) that will unilaterally help all those players with poor mechanics make a better swing.   All equipment can do is get in the way of someone's mechanics, it's never going to allow them to swing beyond their current potential.    And that's something that would show up during the fitting.  Fittings are all about the results.  Well, good proper fittings.   Using examples that don't include proper fittings is pointless for any such argument, that's and indication of problems with implementation, not the process or methodology.

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2021 by Stuart_G

[teddyironboy]

Are we all in agreement that sw scale can work when comparing clubs to each other? And say as long as grips are the same weight?

[joostin]

Gotta love swingweight discussions!

 

8 minutes ago, teddyironboy said:

Are we all in agreement that sw scale can work when comparing clubs to each other? And say as long as grips are the same weight?

Yes along with similar shafts.  The less the variables between clubs or sets the better.

[joostin]

Btw I don't now if it's officially "swingweight" or "swing weight".  I think I go with swingweight because of Tutelman 🙂.  Or SW - not to he confused with sand wedge.

[Fairway14]

41 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

 you are stuck with the idea that a SW scale can tell us if the balance of the club is good or not,

If your thinking was right, what SW values would represent a "good balance" if the players request for new grips was the OG Jumbomax XL grips, that removes 17.5 SW points vs a standard grip?

 

 

A swing weight scale does in fact measure the balance of the club when swung. 

Installing the absurdly heavy weight grips you reference would result in an out of balance finished club, so I suggest not installing that model grip.

[Howard_Jones]

16 minutes ago, teddyironboy said:

Are we all in agreement that sw scale can work when comparing clubs to each other? And say as long as grips are the same weight?

A SET of clubs like a iron set where shafts and grips is the same yes, but if you try to compare a hybrid with a iron, you are already outside of what this instrument was made to do.
Scroll back the time 70 years, and you will see that the general advice back then was using a value 2 SWP higher for woods vs irons, so even with the limited options for shafts and grips there was 70 years ago, they was NOT using the same value from one group of clubs to the next, and for good reasons, the instrument was not designed for anything but matching a SET of clubs, and to a progressive resistance players back then felt was natural vs the power used on each club, so those who think a set of irons all D2 has the same resistance is wrong again. The SW scale with a 14" fulcrum makes a set progressive higher as resistance as they go longer even when all have the same SW value.

[Fairway14]

52 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

 

 

Second, the "balance" as you say is meaningless for the swing.  Balance plays no part in the mechanics of the swing.   

 

 

 

 

All consistently good players/shot makers maintain excellent balance throughout their golf swings. A club that is reasonably well balanced is needed to produce consistently good swings/shots. 

If you hand a highly skilled player a 6-iron with an E5 swing weight or a driver with a C5 SW within a swing or two the player will recognize that the club is way out of balance and he will not make any more swings with it,  knowing that doing so would be harmful. If you hand a poorly skilled player the same two clubs he may continue using them because he does not know what a proper swing/shot is about.

Stock clubs from all the major brands are produced to be in a range of C9 to D6, which makes for reasonably balanced finished clubs. Sadly, in recent years installing some of the newer model grip products has resulted in out of balanced finished clubs, which is harmful to the player.

[teddyironboy]

If irons and woods shouldn't be using the same scale, doesn't that mean 3 iron and pw shouldn't either?

[Howard_Jones]

2 hours ago, teddyironboy said:

If irons and woods shouldn't be using the same scale, doesn't that mean 3 iron and pw shouldn't either?

Who said they should no be using the same scale?

They will most likely not fit if we used the same SW value for all, but we can still use the same instrument for all, the problem is the understanding of what this values tells us since so many is stuck with the wrong idea that "D2" represent a value we can recognize when we swing the club, but thats false and always been false, since we dont even get the same resistance in a set of clubs, so those who thinks a #3 iron as D2 and a #9 iron as D2 has the same resistance (or balance) are wrong.

The SW system delivers a progressive resistance that goes slightly up as club goes longer. That progression ratio seems to have been what most players in the early 30s was comfortable with, WITHIN a SET of clubs.

[Howard_Jones]

9 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

A swing weight scale does in fact measure the balance of the club when swung. 

Installing the absurdly heavy weight grips you reference would result in an out of balance finished club, so I suggest not installing that model grip.

Where did you get your education about the SW scale from?
if you paid for it, you are in title to a refund.

[Stuart_G]

22 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

All consistently good players/shot makers maintain excellent balance throughout their golf swings. A club that is reasonably well balanced is needed to produce consistently good swings/shots. 

 

The player needs to maintain balance  (keep the person's center of gravity from moving too much through the whole motion (that's what your concept of "balance" actually means) because it makes it easier to keep the low point of the swing arc at the same place - thus making it easier to get consistent contact with the ball.     And a player keeps in balance through the use of ground forces - not because they themselves have the weight evenly balanced through their body.  You're not going to have much luck hitting the ball if you try to keep the club's center of gravity in the same place through the whole swing.  Or if you do it wont be able to generate any club head speed and the ball wont go very far.  You'd need the grip to be just as heavy as the head.  

 

The human body itself (both it's mass and ground forces) will always be needed and used by the player to counteract the unbalanced forces of the club swinging so they, as a player, can stay in balance.  The type of balance you're talking about does not and can not exist in the golf club for an effective swing (as we understand what a good swing needs to be).

 

I'm sorry,  I don't really mean to sound insulting but you're basic understanding of physics is very lacking.  That's what's really causing a lot of these misunderstanding.  You either don't understand the concepts or you don't understand the terminology to be able express your ideas very clearly (or understand ours).   Granted this type of dynamics is not easy for most but if it's a road you really want to go down, you might want to look into some online resources to improve it.

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Stuart_G

[Stuart_G]

15 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

A swing weight scale does in fact measure the balance of the club when swung. 

 

 

It doesn't measure a balance point of the club.  It measures the moment (additional forces supplied by the scale) required about the 14" fulcrum to keep the club in balance about that fulcrum.    So no matter what the swing weight value, the swing weight scale is always telling us that the club is not balanced about it's fulcrum.   The point is to match how much two clubs are out of balance - not put them in any particular form of balance.

 

But it never was designed to be about balance.  It was a method tested and found to coincidentally help match the heft feel of clubs (which is in reality VERY different from balance) only in the context of what's needed to adjust the head weight when the length changes a small amount - NEVER what needs to happen to the head weight if the grip weight or shaft weight changes.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Stuart_G

[BREWMASTER95060]

🙂

 

[BREWMASTER95060]

On 10/2/2021 at 6:37 AM, joostin said:

Didn't want to kill this other thread even further:

, so I'll put my 2 cents in my own thread... which I know is not going to change people's minds on feeling balance or a swingweight number.

 

As an engineer who's done too many of the balance equations below and spent too much time making my own swingweight calculators, the swingweight scale is only this:  The amount of torque (moment, force * distance, N-m, lb-ft, oz-in) needed to prevent a club from dropping head down when sitting on a pivot point 14" from the butt, calibrated to a letter and number system.

 

 

1 swingweight point = 1.75 oz-in (.009 lb-ft of torque).  D0 = 213.5 oz-in (1.112 lb-ft) of torque which technically you can feel.  Balance though?

 

Balance needs 2 sides to equal each other.  That's easy on a scale with a pivot point.  Holding a club at the grip end?  To prevent the club and person from falling over, it requires a little shift in bodyweight and a moment (torque) applied by the hands.  Yes, you can feel the amount of weight you're lifting and the amount of torque you apply to a club, "balancing" the torque created by the clubs mass * gravity * distance from the balance point to the hands.  Maybe that's what "feeling the balance" means???

 

"Feeling a club's balance" - I can't explain what that is with physics other that the last paragraph. 

been drinking and posting at the risk of pissing someone off
and being banned.
I hated SW matched clubs 8, 9 wedges 
and/or 9 wedges for years,
until I put jumbo grips on my clubs.
I love it.
Was the SW scale being tricked?

Edited October 5, 2021 by BREWMASTER95060

[joostin]

8 hours ago, BREWMASTER95060 said:

been drinking and posting at the risk of pissing someone off
and being banned.
I hated SW matched clubs 8, 9 wedges 
and/or 9 wedges for years,
until I put jumbo grips on my clubs.
I love it.
Was the SW scale being tricked?

Maybe, but who cares, you found what works for you!

Your brew sounds awesome and dangerous 😳

[BREWMASTER95060]

[joostin]

5 minutes ago, BREWMASTER95060 said:

Strong stuff 4 loko, used to be banned with caffeine. Sure you're measuring the scale right? 😉

[BREWMASTER95060]

PS

Your meme is very funny. 🙂