How would you have ruled on this unfortunate situation?

[DavePelz4]

With appreciation for the intelligence of the ROs on this site, I'd appreciate any insights you have on this unfortunate situation.

 

 

In our competition's final round of the season there was an incident on a green. I'll try my best to describe it with the goal of learning how many penalty strokes, if any, should have been applied based on the actions.

 

Player A hit a putt that went past the hole and was in Player B's line.  Player A marked his ball, and used the putter head to move the ball mark 1 putter head to the left of Player B's line of play and placed his ball mark there. Player B putted out and now it gets interesting. 

 

Player A did not replace (place) his ball where it had been marked, nor did he use the putter head to return the ball mark 1 putter head length to the right and to the original position of the ball/ball mark.  Instead he picked up his ball marker, and casually dropped his ball on a place where he assumed ball originally came to rest before it was marked. His drop was consistent with how you'd drop a ball on a practice putting green.

 

When it was brought to his attention, he literally raked the ball to a different spot with his putter and said "yeah that's where it was." There was a difference of opinion in the group of whether or not he was now putting from the proper spot.

 

Did he break a rule by intentionally picking up his ball mark and what is the penalty, if any?

 

Did he break a rule by intentionally dropping his ball instead of placing it and what is the penalty, if any?

 

Because of the lack of agreement from where he dropped and then raked his ball to, is it possible to determine if he played from the proper spot or do you have to take his word, and hope he's playing by the rules with integrity toward the game, even though so far he's not demonstrated that on this green?

 

If you were told of this situation, how/what would you have ruled?

 

Thank you for the kindness of your time and knowledge.

 

[Sawgrass]

Here’s my take: A 1sp for violating R9.7b, a 1sp for violating R14.2b(2).  IMO these are not related acts, so both penalties count.

 

As to the place ultimately played from, R1.3b(2) absolves player from wrong place penalty for misjudgment as to actual location, assuming it was a reasonable guess on the player’s part.

[Halebopp]

I would agree with Sawgrass. 🙂

[Hawkeye77]

Was he suddenly disinterested because of the result of B’s putt?

 

Just curious because he was careful on half the procedure then got more than a little nonchalant. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[DavePelz4]

26 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Was he suddenly disinterested because of the result of B’s putt?

 

Just curious because he was careful on half the procedure then got more than a little nonchalant. 

 

It seems as you have it perfectly described Hawk.  He was very matter of fact in the whole approach to replacing the ball.  And in the spirit of full disclosure, he did not call any penalty on himself.

[naval2006]

Is player A an amateur golfer? Seems more like family golf in early spring with the light beer, boom box and yellow Pinnacles for the kids. 

[antip]

9 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

Here’s my take: A 1sp for violating R9.7b, a 1sp for violating R14.2b(2).  IMO these are not related acts, so both penalties count.

 

As to the place ultimately played from, R1.3b(2) absolves player from wrong place penalty for misjudgment as to actual location, assuming it was a reasonable guess on the player’s part.

Agree with the rule references, but I believe these are related procedural acts. Yes, separate rules breached, but these are procedural breaches as part of the single process of replacing a marked and lifted ball into the presumed correct position. So one single stroke penalty under 1.3c(4)'s second bullet point.

The USGA has issued rulings of one stroke penalty in a very similar situation of ball accidentally moved (9.4 breach) plus ball replaced using procedure that violates 14.2b(2). I can see no fundamental difference between the 9.4 breach and the 9.7 breach in the OP to rule any differently here.

[DavePelz4]

15 hours ago, naval2006 said:

Is player A an amateur golfer? Seems more like family golf in early spring with the light beer, boom box and yellow Pinnacles for the kids. 

 

Yes Sir, but someone who has been playing in our comp for years.  He knows the rules...just very, very lax with the application thereof.

[naval2006]

3 hours ago, DavePelz4 said:

 

Yes Sir, but someone who has been playing in our comp for years.  He knows the rules...just very, very lax with the application thereof.

Seriously, it must have been a terribly awkward situation.   It all kind of ruins the rest of the round.

[DavePelz4]

So to add a bit more context that has no impact on the ruling, but this will sadly validates Naval's point of awkwardness. As mentioned, this was the final round of our 16 event season, with Stableford as the scoring format.  Total prize money in our comp is just under $4K so we're playing for nice prizes and a very ugly trophy.

 

Person A was in 3rd place in the comp, I was in second.  By not calling penalties on himself for what was referenced above, plus the 2 times he asked another member of the final group for advice, he ended up winning by 2 points. After all was settled, I asked him about the various rules situations. He responded I should have called him on them. Although I've run the competition for 20 years now, we're all responsible for knowing the rules and calling penalties on ourselves.  Plus, I'm not going to be that guy and win a comp by calling violations on someone.  

 

I have peace of mind and he has an ugly trophy. Guess we all got what we wanted.

Edited September 21, 2021 by DavePelz4

[sui generis]

Dave, here's what R20.1c has to say about that:

 

(2) Players Should Protect Other Players in the Competition.

 

To protect the interests of all other players:

If a player knows or believes that another player has breached or might have breached the Rules and that the other player does not recognize or is ignoring this, the player should tell the other player, the player’s marker, a referee or the Committee.

 

This should be done promptly after the player becomes aware of the issue, and no later than before the other player returns his or her scorecard unless it is not possible to do so.

 

If the player fails to do so, the Committee may disqualify the player under Rule 1.2a if it decides that this was serious misconduct contrary to the spirit of the game.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=20

[DavePelz4]

While agreeing with SG 100%, the person it negatively impacted was me, and me only. As the administrator of the competition, you're looking at the committee. If this was a USGA event, I'd definitely have brought it up to the TD. 

 

[Sawgrass]

1 hour ago, DavePelz4 said:

I'm not going to be that guy and win a comp by calling violations on someone.  

 

 

I’m sorry that you feel this way.  I feel Player A is “that guy,” not the person reporting him.

 

As an aside, next time you might wish to say, “I don’t think you’re allowed to do it that way” (in real time) which might inspire him to check or call a penalty on himself. You at least preserve your later option to enforce the ROG.  Having been warned, he has an obligation to look into it.

[tatertot]

I'm totally confused ... the guy's playing for almost $4k and a season trophy, and he just drops his ball on the green and starts raking it all over the place right before sinking the final putt ... and nobody calls him out on it? And he knows the rules? And you let him walk away with all the swag? 

 

Nope, I don't get it.

[Newby]

On 9/21/2021 at 5:18 AM, antip said:

Agree with the rule references, but I believe these are related procedural acts. Yes, separate rules breached, but these are procedural breaches as part of the single process of replacing a marked and lifted ball into the presumed correct position. So one single stroke penalty under 1.3c(4)'s second bullet point.

The USGA has issued rulings of one stroke penalty in a very similar situation of ball accidentally moved (9.4 breach) plus ball replaced using procedure that violates 14.2b(2). I can see no fundamental difference between the 9.4 breach and the 9.7 breach in the OP to rule any differently here.

I agree

[DavePelz4]

13 hours ago, tatertot said:

I'm totally confused ... the guy's playing for almost $4k and a season trophy, and he just drops his ball on the green and starts raking it all over the place right before sinking the final putt ... and nobody calls him out on it? And he knows the rules? And you let him walk away with all the swag? 

 

Nope, I don't get it.

 

It wasn't the final putt, it happened on the 5th hole of the final round. $4K is the total prize pool over the year with each of the 16 events being worth $100-$250 depending on the number of players entered. First place is $400, second is $300, third $200, fourth $100.

 

I understand everyone's perspective and appreciate your thoughts/opinions. As shared previously, no one was impacted financially nor would it have made a difference in the final placement in the standings, except for where I finished.  It's a really tough situation when these are people you've been doing this with for 20 years in some cases.  I'll get my points made in the offseason, go through Saw's explanation (thank you) and hopefully not have to deal with this again.

 

It's tough being judge and jury, when you're the beneficiary of a decision.  

 

 

[ND2005]

22 hours ago, DavePelz4 said:

 

Yes Sir, but someone who has been playing in our comp for years.  He knows the rules...just very, very lax with the application thereof.

 

Awkward situation for someone who has been in your group for years. But such lax application of the rules would clearly indicate there are many other similar events that are not noticed or called out (e.g. is he a casual foot wedge kind of guy when the other players are out of sight). 

 

Personally that person would not be welcome back next year if it were me. 

[tatertot]

1 hour ago, DavePelz4 said:

 

It wasn't the final putt, it happened on the 5th hole of the final round. $4K is the total prize pool over the year with each of the 16 events being worth $100-$250 depending on the number of players entered. First place is $400, second is $300, third $200, fourth $100.

 

I understand everyone's perspective and appreciate your thoughts/opinions. As shared previously, no one was impacted financially nor would it have made a difference in the final placement in the standings, except for where I finished.  It's a really tough situation when these are people you've been doing this with for 20 years in some cases.  I'll get my points made in the offseason, go through Saw's explanation (thank you) and hopefully not have to deal with this again.

 

It's tough being judge and jury, when you're the beneficiary of a decision.  

 

 

OK ... that makes more sense. 

 

And yes, always more difficult when you add in the "personal" element.

[limegreengent]

Dave

I am afraid that you are just as culpable as the player.

You have a responsibility as a marker and fellow competitor.

How can you say it only impacted on yourself.

It was the 5th hole.

You were in no position to judge at that point.

How do you know how many of the other players penalised themselves during the Competition for similar minor breaches which have made a difference.

No wonder this player is lax with the rules when No one is calling him on them.

Perhaps it's time to sit down and have a proper discussion with your group so that you can all set down some guidance .

This kind of situation is much more likely to happen when the prize money is too big.😵😵😵

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by limegreengent

[DavePelz4]

1 hour ago, limegreengent said:

Dave

I am afraid that you are just as culpable as the player.

You have a responsibility as a marker and fellow competitor.

How can you say it only impacted on yourself.

It was the 5th hole.

You were in no position to judge at that point.

How do you know how many of the other players penalised themselves during the Competition for similar minor breaches which have made a difference.

No wonder this player is lax with the rules when No one is calling him on them.

Perhaps it's time to sit down and have a proper discussion with your group so that you can all set down some guidance .

This kind of situation is much more likely to happen when the prize money is too big.😵😵😵

 

 

While I respect your opinion, you're making a lot of unfounded assumptions without any supporting facts.

 

Can you tell me if he was called on any other rules violations throughout the 16 event competition or called penalties on himself?  Can you tell me what other players called penalties on themselves including me? 

 

This has nothing to do with money, we are all blessed in that regard.  This is about winning the ugly trophy.

 

[sui generis]

We all agree that it's no fun for you when another player puts you in that position. However, the Rules give you no choice. Nowhere do we get to decide for ourselves which Rules to follow and which to ignore. You are not the bad guy for speaking up, but you can become the other bad guy by not speaking up. 🙂

[DavePelz4]

25 minutes ago, sui generis said:

We all agree that it's no fun for you when another player puts you in that position. However, the Rules give you no choice. Nowhere do we get to decide for ourselves which Rules to follow and which to ignore. You are not the bad guy for speaking up, but you can become the other bad guy by not speaking up. 🙂

 

Clearly this part of the post has been missed. 

 

"Player A did not replace (place) his ball where it had been marked, nor did he use the putter head to return the ball mark 1 putter head length to the right and to the original position of the ball/ball mark.  Instead he picked up his ball marker, and casually dropped his ball on a place where he assumed ball originally came to rest before it was marked. His drop was consistent with how you'd drop a ball on a practice putting green.

 

When it was brought to his attention, he literally raked the ball to a different spot with his putter and said "yeah that's where it was." There was a difference of opinion in the group of whether or not he was now putting from the proper spot."

 

The facts are that it was brought to his attention. He CHOSE not to call a penalty or penalties on himself. 

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, DavePelz4 said:

The facts are that it was brought to his attention. He CHOSE not to call a penalty or penalties on himself. 

 

And, yes, Dave we know that. However, that isn't just his problem alone. It's a problem for the whole field in stroke play. It's especially a problem for the other players in his group who were witness to his breaches.

 

This is never pretty when a player blatantly abuses the Rules. Their actions have wider implications. In stroke play, the witnesses have a duty to speak up and nobody wants to do that to a friend or acquaintance. But, they must. They're not making a judgement about the other player, they're merely demanding that he play by the same Rules as everyone else. Ultimately the Committee must be informed and they must act.

 

Rule 20.1.c2 tells us what that's all about:

 

(2) Players Should Protect Other Players in the Competition.

 

To protect the interests of all other players:

If a player knows or believes that another player has breached or might have breached the Rules and that the other player does not recognize or is ignoring this, the player should tell the other player, the player’s marker, a referee or the Committee.

 

This should be done promptly after the player becomes aware of the issue, and no later than before the other player returns his or her scorecard unless it is not possible to do so.

 

If the player fails to do so, the Committee may disqualify the player (That is, the one who failed to report the breach.) under Rule 1.2a if it decides that this was serious misconduct contrary to the spirit of the game.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=20&subrulenum=1

 

[DavePelz4]

51 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

And, yes, Dave we know that. However, that isn't just his problem alone. It's a problem for the whole field in stroke play. It's especially a problem for the other players in his group who were witness to his breaches.

 

This is never pretty when a player blatantly abuses the Rules. Their actions have wider implications. In stroke play, the witnesses have a duty to speak up and nobody wants to do that to a friend or acquaintance. But, they must. They're not making a judgement about the other player, they're merely demanding that he play by the same Rules as everyone else. Ultimately the Committee must be informed and they must act.

 

Rule 20.1.c2 tells us what that's all about:

 

(2) Players Should Protect Other Players in the Competition.

 

To protect the interests of all other players:

If a player knows or believes that another player has breached or might have breached the Rules and that the other player does not recognize or is ignoring this, the player should tell the other player, the player’s marker, a referee or the Committee.

 

This should be done promptly after the player becomes aware of the issue, and no later than before the other player returns his or her scorecard unless it is not possible to do so.

 

If the player fails to do so, the Committee may disqualify the player (That is, the one who failed to report the breach.) under Rule 1.2a if it decides that this was serious misconduct contrary to the spirit of the game.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=20&subrulenum=1

 

 

I read that the first time you posted it, thank you for sharing it again. Let me reiterate a few points that you're choosing to ignore and then put out a hypothetical to you.

 

1. I believe he breached rules and told the player.

2. It was done promptly.

3. The player denied the breach.

4. The other players in the group did not acknowledge the errors so it's now his opinion vs. my opinion.

5. At that moment, I acted as a competitor and not the committee. 

6. After that moment, I acted as the committee, I listened to Player B, myself, and my explanation of what I saw. I listened to Player A state there was no violation, and solicited the opinion of Players C and D who claimed to not have seen anything. Being that the two competitors did not agree, no penalty was called.  Player B was not disqualified because they did report the alleged breach that they saw, in a exceptionally timely manner, and were in fact, attempting to protect the field. There was no serious misconduct that was contrary to the spirit of the game.  

 

Hypothetically, when you are acting in a RO capacity and Player A says to you they didn't commit a violation of the rules, Player B says they did and Players C and D say they didn't see anything, how would you rule when it's one person's word vs. another's?

 

[Sawgrass]

27 minutes ago, DavePelz4 said:

  

 

Hypothetically, when you are acting in a RO capacity and Player A says to you they didn't commit a violation of the rules, Player B says they did and Players C and D say they didn't see anything, how would you rule when it's one person's word vs. another's?

 

I’d call all the players who were present and ask B, who is there among them, if he acknowledges he picked up his mark without first replacing his ball, and if he dropped, rather than placed his ball to get it in position.  IMO it’s likely that he would tell the truth given the circumstances.
 

If B didn’t acknowledge the facts you presented, I’d ask the other players.  If no one saw anything but you (he said/he said) I’d rule in favor of B, despite my concern that he was lying.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Sawgrass

[sui generis]

23 minutes ago, DavePelz4 said:

Hypothetically, when you are acting in a RO capacity and Player A says to you they didn't commit a violation of the rules, Player B says they did and Players C and D say they didn't see anything, how would you rule when it's one person's word vs. another's?

 

You ask a good question, Dave. It's not happened to me. However, should it, I'm not alone since the Committee is most often several referees and the tournament director. We would re-investigate the incident and rule as a Committee. 

 

If the player denied the actions which were reported to the Committee and no other witnesses were forthcoming, I suspect the matter would be dropped. 

 

Know, too, that "bad actors" get remembered by the clubs and associations that conduct tournaments. Sometimes entries to future events are rejected. 

 

This has been a good discussion, Dave. hanks for putting it out there.

 

 

[antip]

Dave

 

Being player and policeman (Committee) is an invidious position, particularly given the skin you had in the game. However, this is a statement you made above.

 

When it was brought to his attention, he literally raked the ball to a different spot with his putter and said "yeah that's where it was." There was a difference of opinion in the group of whether or not he was now putting from the proper spot." The facts are that it was brought to his attention. He CHOSE not to call a penalty or penalties on himself. 

 

On that information, there can be absolutely no wriggle room from the fact that he raked the ball with putter to its final position. And that means a penalty (14.2b(2)). The player cannot choose to not call a penalty on himself and the Committee cannot fail to apply a penalty. The remaining question is whether the Committee needs to DQ the player for being alerted to a rules issue and failing to secure the correct answer before returning the card.

 

I'm not being critical here, I appreciate the difficult position you were in and I'm just following the bouncing rules ball. If you acted consistent with the rules, there could be an appearance that you personally were a beneficiary of the process. But that is precisely what 'protecting the field' means - penalties being applied appropriately. 

[Imp]

On 9/21/2021 at 5:28 PM, DavePelz4 said:

As mentioned, this was the final round of our 16 event season, with Stableford as the scoring format.

Actually, this was the 1st time that stableford was mentioned. 

 

At this point, the only thing I would do, instead of worrying about stoke penalties, etc... is give him a zero and move on to the next hole. Because it seems clear to me, he didn't care about any points on the hole after what he did on the green.

 

22 hours ago, DavePelz4 said:

It's tough being judge and jury, when you're the beneficiary of a decision.  

Agreed. Had an 8 golfer weekend just recently, and there was a disagreement afterwards if we were capping at net double or taking all strokes made. It actually got heated with everyone in the condo after the 1st round.

Problem was, a few decided the rules in front of everyone else (before the 1st round), and some people heard what they wanted to hear, and tuned the rest out. Worst of it all, I was in the john and didn't hear it at all. So when I came out, I didn't ask the right questions, and heard from different people different rules, and when tried to clarify, it was a mess. No one wrote them down (I'm the one that usually puts them on my phone for later). For some reason (i.e. hungover), I didn't and was just trying to keep my insides, in. So we went & played. After 1st round, one foursome capped, the other recorded every stroke. It was ugly.

Both of my rounds under 80, with one hole, I recorded a 10 on a par 4, and the obstinate one that played with the other group, (that played capped) said "OH NO... all strokes have to count" after he heard it. To wit... how do you put a score on a card when others were picking up? Hence, the heat that came afterwards (and it happened while I went up to take a shower, and removed myself from the discussion). I lost by 1 stroke because of it. 

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by Imp

[Hawkeye77]

Even not being the beneficiary, it's tough calling stuff on people you play with regularly. Been there back when we had a match play tourney among our members for a few years.  Lost a match because of calling a penalty on myself which the other guy wouldn't have seen or known about.  Won a match in spite of a guy putting then rushing up to tap in his next putt, not even time to give it to him he was so fast, lol, while simultaneously holding the flag and pulling it out as the ball hit it and dropped in and he did it twice.  I won on the 18th hole so that was a comfort, but I just shook my head when he did it the first time instead of calling him on it and should have said something at least on the next tee - just didn't think he'd do it again, lol, then when he did I figured no point bringing it up since I'd let it pass once already.  He was a jackass and they were putts I'd have given if I'd had a chance and I just didn't want to get into it with him, so I get that even with guys you don't like it just being awkward.

 

I'd imagine people that play a lot of "official" competitions or are rules officials that also play a lot of golf might be more used to these kinds of situations and/or more inclined to call penalties (and yes, they should be called - but I've found it just isn't that easy as well).

 

Maybe you @DavePelz4 (a true gentleman of the links, I know first hand) and a couple of like minded guys might think of actually proposing, volunteering for (in advance so the table is set for quality work) and serving on a committee for purposes of these things that come up and secure "heads ups" from all involved next spring if you have some nice kickoff barbecue that you are (as always) following USGA rules and some folks that are willing to handle those issues as a committee per the rules and a guess is even ballraker would give his enthusiastic support, and then just agree to commit to dealing with the issues as they come up.  Still have to pull the trigger, but maybe a little more (at least stated) "buy in" from the group and takes the load off your shoulders from a rules point of view.  And let it lie for now if possible.  

 

Just a spitball - no idea of all the personalities involved!  I'd love to have a group that has something organized like this over the course of the season, but I'd be pitiful at enforcing things - I'd be more like, "just tell me what I owe", lol.  So total respect for those that organize and keep things together - lots of work (and probably fun as well).   

[DavePelz4]

Hawkeye, thank you, that's a wonderful recommendation to actually have a "committee" for these types of instances.  Will definitely put that out for the 2022 season.  We're very fortunate that 12 of the 14 guys have a good knowledge of the rules and if they're unsure, they'll ask, and when I'm unsure, it's pull out the rule book or the app. There are probably only 4-5 things that happen during the course of the competition that would need discussion but that definitely takes the burden off me to be judge and jury.