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Lighter iron heads, heavier shafts?


cjlayer30
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I'm messing around with a backup set that will be the Cleveland 588 mb/cb combo. Clubs as they exist today are 2, 3 cb and 4-9 mb. I want to weaken the lofts on all of them by ~2° so that they play as modern lofted 3-PW and have minimal offset. The only issue I foresee is that the swing weight will be very low due to the heads being about 7 grams lighter than what they should be (e.g. 9i playing in a PW shaft). I have been fitted into the DG 120 S300s on my current Ping Blueprint gamers. Would I benefit from a heavier shaft that could possibly tighten my dispersion (tend to overdraw as my miss) and bring the swing weight back up - or should I just lead tape the heads and keep the DG 120s in there? Lead tape for swing weight is the easy answer, but I'm curious if I could gain anything from a heavier shaft with similar flex characteristics - maybe the DG Tour Issue S400s. 

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No disrespect, but your plan doesn't seem worth the hassle and risk of a poor shaft fit.  Bending 2 degrees weak only reduces offset .030 (.75mm) and many people wouldn't even be able to see that either.

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9 minutes ago, Nessism said:

No disrespect, but your plan doesn't seem worth the hassle and risk of a poor shaft fit.  Bending 2 degrees weak only reduces offset .030 (.75mm) and many people wouldn't even be able to see that either.

I understand that, but I am extremely sensitive to offset. I'd hit the Arias true zero offset irons if they had a thinner top line. I ordered a test 7 iron from them and loved it, but couldn't get past the top line. Obviously my Blueprints are as minimal offset as it comes. Just playing around with a backup set.

Edited by cjlayer30
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Are you planning to have the lie adjusted and shorten the clubs to "3-PW" specs? If not, then there shouldn't be a weight problem. If re-shafting and building to 3-PW lengths, you can use tip weights or the lead tape to get the weighting right.

 

BT

Edited by Ri_Redneck

 

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38 minutes ago, cjlayer30 said:

I understand that, but I am extremely sensitive to offset. I'd hit the Arias true zero offset irons if they had a thinner top line. I ordered a test 7 iron from them and loved it, but couldn't get past the top line. Obviously my Blueprints are as minimal offset as it comes. Just playing around with a backup set.


If you build your own sets, then tip weights can in some cases make it for you, but that depends on the heads actual weight vs target, and some heads will always be "off specs", so if you already have those heads at hand, put them on the gram scale and see if you can make it with 9 grams tip weights as the largest. If you absolutely want to go this way, and dont mind lead tape, you can combine tip weights with some lead tape when needed.

DO NOT mess with shafts here, use a shaft you know works for you. Overdrawing is a face angle issue, hardly ever a shaft issue. IF this is your typical mis-hit, start by a look at how you place your hands on the grip. If thats good, consider a grip with more diameter for the lowest hand (+4 grips)

Another tip that works for some, is to fill the lowest groove with some paint. That might help to address the ball right in case you tend to address it with the face a little closed without knowing. Its easier to use a paint filled groove than the leading edge for this purpose, even if the clubs have close to zero offset.

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3 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:


If you build your own sets, then tip weights can in some cases make it for you, but that depends on the heads actual weight vs target, and some heads will always be "off specs", so if you already have those heads at hand, put them on the gram scale and see if you can make it with 9 grams tip weights as the largest. If you absolutely want to go this way, and dont mind lead tape, you can combine tip weights with some lead tape when needed.

DO NOT mess with shafts here, use a shaft you know works for you. Overdrawing is a face angle issue, hardly ever a shaft issue. IF this is your typical mis-hit, start by a look at how you place your hands on the grip. If thats good, consider a grip with more diameter for the lowest hand (+4 grips)

Another tip that works for some, is to fill the lowest groove with some paint. That might help to address the ball right in case you tend to address it with the face a little closed without knowing. Its easier to use a paint filled groove than the leading edge for this purpose, even if the clubs have close to zero offset.

The paint fill on the bottom groove is an absolute must for me. Probably a part of the reason I fell in love with the Blueprints in my fitting. And yeah I know that trying to make equipment changes to fix a face/path issue, but I'm just tossing around ideas on if a heavier shaft would tighten dispersion throughout the iron set. My overdraw is more path related than face - the ball starts on my intended line but will occasionally spin too much to the left. 

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13 minutes ago, Ri_Redneck said:

Are you planning to have the lie adjusted and shorten the clubs to "3-PW" specs? If not, then there shouldn't be a weight problem. If re-shafting and building to 3-PW lengths, you can use tip weights or the lead tape to get the weighting right.

 

BT

I will shorten the clubs to 3-PW length and adjust all lofts and lies accordingly. 

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7 minutes ago, cjlayer30 said:

The paint fill on the bottom groove is an absolute must for me. Probably a part of the reason I fell in love with the Blueprints in my fitting. And yeah I know that trying to make equipment changes to fix a face/path issue, but I'm just tossing around ideas on if a heavier shaft would tighten dispersion throughout the iron set. My overdraw is more path related than face - the ball starts on my intended line but will occasionally spin too much to the left. 


Then you can try that off, without a shaft change, just follow me on this.*

Take the clubs you have now, and figure out how much the difference in shaft weight is up to the shafts you think might work better. Find the middle of your shaft (the shafts balance point is always close to the middle). Then measure the needed weight as lead tape and distribute that lead tape head to grip direction both ways from your mid-shaft mark, and on the underside of the shaft so you dont have to look on it in address position. This way we can "simulate" a higher shaft weight to figure out if that works better without changing the shafts, and its even legal to play with it like that, so if those grams extra makes the clubs works better, we can play them like that.
We have full freedom to add as little or as much as we like to make it feel and work just right.

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8 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:


Then you can try that off, without a shaft change, just follow me on this.*

Take the clubs you have now, and figure out how much the difference in shaft weight is up to the shafts you think might work better. Find the middle of your shaft (the shafts balance point is always close to the middle). Then measure the needed weight as lead tape and distribute that lead tape head to grip direction both ways from your mid-shaft mark, and on the underside of the shaft so you dont have to look on it in address position. This way we can "simulate" a higher shaft weight to figure out if that works better without changing the shafts, and its even legal to play with it like that, so if those grams extra makes the clubs works better, we can play them like that.
We have full freedom to add as little or as much as we like to make it feel and work just right.

That’s a great idea that I would have never thought of. Thanks!

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48 minutes ago, cjlayer30 said:

The paint fill on the bottom groove is an absolute must for me. Probably a part of the reason I fell in love with the Blueprints in my fitting. And yeah I know that trying to make equipment changes to fix a face/path issue, but I'm just tossing around ideas on if a heavier shaft would tighten dispersion throughout the iron set. My overdraw is more path related than face - the ball starts on my intended line but will occasionally spin too much to the left. 

So path gives you starting point, but the overdrawing is still a face related issue.  Going too far left means your face is more closed to your path than you want it.  It is still a face issue.

 

It would be a path issue if your starting point was not where you wanted it.  Meaning you wanted to start 10 yards right of your target but instead you only started 2 yards left of your target, that is a path issue.

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1 hour ago, driveandputtmachine said:

So path gives you starting point, but the overdrawing is still a face related issue.  Going too far left means your face is more closed to your path than you want it.  It is still a face issue.

 

It would be a path issue if your starting point was not where you wanted it.  Meaning you wanted to start 10 yards right of your target but instead you only started 2 yards left of your target, that is a path issue.

Starting point is mostly indicative of face angle. 

 

Here is some good reading on this for you https://www.pgaclp.com.au/trackman/starting-line-path-or-face/

Edited by cjlayer30
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1 hour ago, Cwebb said:

Just add weight to the heads.  That is more likely to tone a draw down vs adding shaft weight

So I guess herein lies my biggest question on this experiment. By adding weight to the head, won't that make the shaft flex more through the transition and downswing? By adding the weight to the shaft itself, would that not tighten the dispersion by reducing the "flexiness" of the lower end of the shaft? Not just for overdraws, that just happens to be my miss more than others.

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3 hours ago, cjlayer30 said:

I'm messing around with a backup set that will be the Cleveland 588 mb/cb combo. Clubs as they exist today are 2, 3 cb and 4-9 mb. I want to weaken the lofts on all of them by ~2° so that they play as modern lofted 3-PW and have minimal offset. The only issue I foresee is that the swing weight will be very low due to the heads being about 7 grams lighter than what they should be (e.g. 9i playing in a PW shaft). I have been fitted into the DG 120 S300s on my current Ping Blueprint gamers. Would I benefit from a heavier shaft that could possibly tighten my dispersion (tend to overdraw as my miss) and bring the swing weight back up - or should I just lead tape the heads and keep the DG 120s in there? Lead tape for swing weight is the easy answer, but I'm curious if I could gain anything from a heavier shaft with similar flex characteristics - maybe the DG Tour Issue S400s. 

 

Fitting for shaft weight is separate/different from fitting for head weight or swing weight.   The only way to tell what will happen when changing shaft weight is to test it out.   But one should generally not be traded off for the other unless it's a last resort.   But if the heads are light, use tip weights or lead tape - either will be just as effective.

 

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1 minute ago, dhacker56 said:

Better check the existing lofts.  The Cleveland MBs probably are already weaker than today's irons. 

Yeah they are a few degrees weaker. Weakening them 2 degrees each gives me a 45° pitching wedge (588 mb 9i is 43°) which gaps well with my 50 55 60 wedge setup.

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7 minutes ago, cjlayer30 said:

So I guess herein lies my biggest question on this experiment. By adding weight to the head, won't that make the shaft flex more through the transition and downswing?

 

A tiny bit more than they would at the lighter weight, but not more then they were if they were the standard weight.  But 7 gm's is a pretty small amount relative to the effect on the shaft stiffness - same as soft stepping once.  (or in this case it's more likely going from hard stepped without the weight to normal stiffness with the weight).  Many ams wouldn't even be able to feel any difference in stiffness.

 

 

7 minutes ago, cjlayer30 said:

By adding the weight to the shaft itself, would that not tighten the dispersion by reducing the "flexiness" of the lower end of the shaft? Not just for overdraws, that just happens to be my miss more than others.

 

No, that's not how dispersion really works.  With human's dispersion is not directly related to stiffness.  Dispersion comes from how good a fit the grip size, shaft wight, swing weight and shaft flex more than anything else.  Anything done to improve the fit will generally improve the dispersion.

Edited by Stuart_G
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Just now, dhacker56 said:

sorry missed that.  Your lie would be off.  I tried the same thing with Epic MB.  Did not work. 

Plan is to adjust lies and lofts accordingly. But oddly enough the 588 MBs have the same lie on the 9i and PW which would get me off to a good start without adjusting.

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5 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

A tiny bit more than they would at the lighter weight, but not more then they were if they were the standard weight.  But 7 gm's is a pretty small amount relative to the effect on the shaft stiffness - same as soft stepping once.  (or in this case it's more likely going from hard stepped without the weight to normal stiffness with the weight).  Many ams wouldn't even be able to feel any difference in stiffness.

 

 

 

No, that's not how dispersion really works.  With human's dispersion is not directly related to stiffness.  Dispersion comes from how good a fit the grip size, shaft wight, swing weight and shaft flex more than anything else.  Anything done to improve the fit will generally improve the dispersion.

Yeah I know it's not a big difference, and at the end of the day a proper fit will give best results on all dispersion/distance/trajectories. But just going off the traditional numbers - a high swing speed player will generally (though not always) see tighter dispersion numbers with heavier/stiffer shafts. And considering the DG120s are mostly just a lighter version of the standard dynamic golds, I am curious to see what would happen if I used let's say the S400s in a lighter iron head. Similar flex profile and transition, and would end up with similar swing weights to what I'm used to.

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22 minutes ago, cjlayer30 said:

But just going off the traditional numbers - a high swing speed player will generally (though not always) see tighter dispersion numbers with heavier/stiffer shafts.

 

Heavier - maybe (although "sometimes" is still more accurate than "generally") but only up to a point. Once the weight becomes too heavy for the player, dispersion will suffer.  

Stiffer - No, not really.   That's more a myth than any kind of noticeable reality.  And when it is true, it's more about the quality and consistency of their ball striking than it is about swing speed.

 

But even when true, (from "traditional numbers") the difference in stiffness from that difference in head weight would still result in negligible changes to the ball flight numbers or dispersion.

 

22 minutes ago, cjlayer30 said:

 

And considering the DG120s are mostly just a lighter version of the standard dynamic golds, I am curious to see what would happen if I used let's say the S400s in a lighter iron head. Similar flex profile and transition, and would end up with similar swing weights to what I'm used to.

 

Don't assume that a change in shaft weight will result in a change in swing weight.   Most shaft designers adjust the balance point such that the swing weight will not change much despite the change in shaft weight.  so you'd likely end up with a heavier static weight but still a relatively light swing weight/MOI.   How that effects dispersion will depend 100% on how sensitive you are to those two specs.   Shaft weight and head weight have different effects in different parts of the swing.

 

Edited by Stuart_G
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1 hour ago, Cwebb said:

I just remembered that Vijay Singh was playing a set of Mizuno's where he did this.  He had them stamped with the new club numbers in red, next to the original stamps

I believe billy Horschel has been doing something similar lately. He switches between his Blueprints and some Titleist MBs that have been lead taped and marked with the new club number. 

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12 hours ago, boggyman said:

Weaker lofts will add a tad of bounce too. You’re talking old school lofts, which I like. My PW is 50* so I only carry a 56* after that. Usually 12clubs total. It’ll mask a swing flaw, but a degree or two flat will help alleviate the draw miss some too. 

I messed around with a flatter lie and and it was very  strange. My draw became more pronounced. Like I would feel the need to get the clubhead further away from me in the downswing due to the flatter lie, which just caused a more in to out path. It's on me - I know that. Just one of those things that didn't work for me.

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1 hour ago, cjlayer30 said:

I messed around with a flatter lie and and it was very  strange. My draw became more pronounced. Like I would feel the need to get the clubhead further away from me in the downswing due to the flatter lie, which just caused a more in to out path. It's on me - I know that. Just one of those things that didn't work for me.


Use the ball marker test for lie angles, and start with whats normally your favorite iron.
Playing with lie angle thats upright or flat at impact, force you to compensate with face angle timing, and thats no good at all since face angle timing is what most players struggles with as a start.
Wrong lie angle also have the potential to move impact position on the face, and by that rob you for power transfer ratio and distance. It also makes it WAY harder to make a draw or fade as you like, so make sure you set lie angles correct.

Draw a strait line on the ball like we often use for putting with a whiteboard pen or similar (thin line NOT fat), and use this label to compare that line with. (you DONT need the label on the face, eyeballing is good enough since the ratio is 10:1 on irons). Just take a snapshot of this picture with your mobile and use it for judgement. if you are in doubt, upload photos and i can do that for you.
Its the ANGLE of the line the ball prints on the face we shall judge, NOT that lines position like the label might give the impression of.

1928487840_facelabellieangle.jpg.0322bb7c3568e50147df0eb6aeded90d.jpg

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