Does a lightweight low launch high spin iron shaft exist?

[6holesn1]

+1 smooth swinger here.  165 7 iron.  Fitted into Modus 120X shafts that I like.  Coming off some shoulder tendinitis and getting back into it after a 3 week layoff.  Looking for an alternative until my strength/speed comes back into the golf swing.  Anything comparable in a lighter weight….

 

TIA.  

[dsmil]

Is there such thing as a low launch high spin shaft in any weight? I’m not an expert but my impression is that the shaft basically just changes effective loft, so launch/spin have to be in the same ballpark. The only thing that comes to mind is if your attack angle got steeper with a certain shaft, but that’s probably a guessing game as for what shaft could possibly do that (if any).

[tim_joyce]

You could try the TGI 100 from KBS. The launch conditions are going to be as similar as you can to the Modus 125. You could also try the MMT 125TX if you can get your hands on a set

[animalgolfs]

8 hours ago, tim_joyce said:

You could try the TGI 100 from KBS. The launch conditions are going to be as similar as you can to the Modus 125. You could also try the MMT 125TX if you can get your hands on a set

Modus 120 not 125

 

And their isn't a shaft that compares to the 120 - maybe the old DG SL

[Jtgavigan]

Look at the rapid taper series from Xcaliber. I would have suggested the i9 from them, but the 120 is a unique profile and the RT may be a great fit. They may be willing to work with you on getting a demo shaft to try. 

[Stuart_G]

10 hours ago, dsmil said:

Is there such thing as a low launch high spin shaft in any weight?

 

No.  You're correct in your understanding on how shafts contribute to the ball flight.

 

10 hours ago, dsmil said:

I’m not an expert but my impression is that the shaft basically just changes effective loft, so launch/spin have to be in the same ballpark. The only thing that comes to mind is if your attack angle got steeper with a certain shaft, but that’s probably a guessing game as for what shaft could possibly do that (if any).

 

More commonly that would be about how the shaft weight or swing weight of the club might effect the release timing and delivery.  Not really a shaft characteristic but rather a characteristic of the players swing. e.g.  The subjective reaction of the player to different feels.

 

11 hours ago, 6holesn1 said:

+1 smooth swinger here.  165 7 iron.  Fitted into Modus 120X shafts that I like.  Coming off some shoulder tendinitis and getting back into it after a 3 week layoff.  Looking for an alternative until my strength/speed comes back into the golf swing.  Anything comparable in a lighter weight….

 

TIA.  

 

How much lighter?    For low launch, light weight shafts you can't beat the steelfiber i-series.    Drop a flex when coming from those nippons - so most likely the i95's in stiff flex - unless that's too light.   Shoulder problems or not, shaft weight is really more about the players sense of rhythm and timing than it is about strength.

 

You're just not going to find much low launching and light weight in any steel option.  The closest might be the KBS c-taper lite in stiff (110 gm) and it's still not going to be as "low launching" as the Steelfibers.

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Stuart_G

[Howard_Jones]

3 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

No.  You're correct in your understanding on how shafts contribute to the ball flight.

 

 

More commonly that would be about how the shaft weight or swing weight of the club might effect the release timing and delivery.  Not really a shaft characteristic but rather a characteristic of the players swing. e.g.  The subjective reaction of the player to different feels.

 

 

How much lighter?    For low launch, light weight shafts you can't beat the steelfiber i-series.    Drop a flex when coming from those nippons - so most likely the i95's in stiff flex - unless that's too light.   Shoulder problems or not, shaft weight is really more about the players sense of rhythm and timing than it is about strength.

 

You're just not going to find much low launching and light weight in any steel option.  The closest might be the KBS c-taper lite in stiff (110 gm) and it's still not going to be as "low launching" as the Steelfibers.

 

 

 

We can add the discontinued but still available Dynamic Gold SL to the list if steel shafts of 105-110 grams is where he wants to go.

[ShowMe]

14 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

More commonly that would be about how the shaft weight or swing weight of the club might effect the release timing and delivery.  Not really a shaft characteristic but rather a characteristic of the players swing. e.g.  The subjective reaction of the player to different feels.

 

 

 

 

Sure, but different feels specifically caused by the shaft's characteristics, so directly related to it.  The shaft causes the different feel, not the swing.  And it's not subjective.  It's the same feel every time you swing a given shaft.  There's a direct correlation.

[Stuart_G]

7 hours ago, ShowMe said:

 

Sure, but different feels specifically caused by the shaft's characteristics, so directly related to it.  The shaft causes the different feel, not the swing.  And it's not subjective.  It's the same feel every time you swing a given shaft.  There's a direct correlation.

 

Yes, shaft characteristics play a part, but it's not really the dominant part.   The swing really is the major factor in what the player will feel.   The swing, not the shaft, determines how much force will be applied to the shaft at any instant during the swing and how much loading and unloading will occur and when during the swing it will occur.  Those forces are the key to how the shaft will feel.  The stiffness of the shaft is  secondary to those forces.  Maybe even third to the club makeup (length + head weight).  

 

There is no objective way to evaluate feel, it's 100% subjective.  Two people can make the same swing with the same shaft and interpret the feel completely differently.   And one person can swing two shafts with different stiffness profiles and interpret the feel as identical.

 

But the fact that no two people do swing exactly the same makes it even more dependent on the individual.   And that's not all, we can even take that a step further.   If we start to look at how the feel can potentially be used as a controlling factor in the swing - and therefor how the swing can change as the feel changes - it's ingrained at the neurological level and literally impossible to make it subject independent.

 

It just seems like the stiffness profile plays a bigger part because from each individual's perspective, it's the only variable they experience or are exposed to.

 

So the main point is that, those types of effects on the ball flight should not be associated with the shaft in any way that's independent of the player swinging it.  Or for that matter, in any way that might imply those effects will carry over to anyone else swinging the club.   Otherwise we'd have to give every possible label to every shaft out there.

 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Stuart_G

[ShowMe]

7 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

So the main point is that, those types of effects on the ball flight should not be associated with the shaft in any way that's independent of the player swinging it.  Or for that matter, in any way that might imply those effects will carry over to anyone else swinging the club.   Otherwise we'd have to give every possible label to every shaft out there.

 

 

So not everybody who swings a heavy low-spin shaft will hit the ball low with low spin relative to their normal shot?  Some will hit it high with a lot of spin relative to their normal shot?

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, ShowMe said:

 

So not everybody who swings a heavy low-spin shaft will hit the ball low with low spin relative to their normal shot?

 

Correct.  Many other factors can easily have a much higher influence on the ball flight result than the marketed shaft characteristics.   For some those shaft characteristics will have no influence at all.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Stuart_G

[ShowMe]

10 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Correct.  Many other factors can easily have a much higher influence on the ball flight result than the marketed shaft characteristics.   For some those shaft characteristics will have no influence at all.

 

That's interesting.  Have you actually seen that in person thru fittings?  If so, for the people of whom the shaft characteristics had no influence, did they have anything in common.  For example, were they all high or low handicaps, or slow or fast swingers, or early or late releasers, etc.?  Or was it seemingly random?

 

I do notice, however, that you use a qualifier in your response - "marketed" shaft characteristics.  That's not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about the actual shaft characteristics (e.g., shaft weight, shaft tip torque, EI profile, etc.).  For example, a shaft that weighs more will flight lower than the exact same shaft in a lighter weight.  A shaft with a lower tip torque will flight lower than one with a higher tip torque in the same model.  And so on.  Have you also seen no correlation between shaft characteristics and ball flight in these instances?

 

I mean, it's hard to believe that somebody, for example, will consistently hit a Diamana Red Board lower and with less spin than a Diamana White Board of similar weight.

[JDIL]

The technical language is way past my pay grade but let me put myself out as an example. I'm a slower swinger. 7 iron 140-145'ish. Always fitted into 95g shafts. I've only done manufacturer and a couple paid ones but these aren't on the level of the great fitters (I need to find one and go).

 

P790s with Recoils 90 grams. Super low launch, hard to elevate anything longer than 8 iron. Fitted, switched out to Nippon 950 Neos. Got even worse (don't want to fit on mats anymore!) on course. When I hit the ball, it's low. But thin shots, toe shots, thin toe shots galore. It's kind of insane how I can't hit them at all.

 

Dynamic Gold XP S300s. These are higher launching but damn near 20 grams heavier, and one stiff flex up. Probably had my best iron striking day in recent memory. Total yardage was the similar, but the XPs were all carry and steep descent on mid irons, and drop or even a slight rollback, while with the lighter shafts it always rolled out.

 

Modus T 130 Stiff P770. Used them for a few holes, and hit them great back to back with my thin/toe'd Neo shots, on course. Modus 130 flew higher and no thin/toe shots. So much more comfortable in my hands. I'm 5'6" and about 145 with a small frame and small hands. I should NOT be hitting these better than 95g regular shafts.

 

I just can't adjust to the lighter weight it seems (except the Elevate 95s which I can hit decently well, weird). I apparently release the lighter shafts too early maybe? Dunno but the heavier shafts slow my tempo down, gets me to swing the club, and not toss the head at the ball to start the downswing.

 

Now I'm trying to find the sweet spot, because I'm not sure I should lug around 120 gram shafts for 18 holes or maybe I should. I do hit hybrids and woods more than others so perhaps the heavier weight won't be so fatiguing.

Edited September 25, 2021 by JDIL

[animalgolfs]

21 minutes ago, ShowMe said:

 

 

 

I mean, it's hard to believe that somebody, for example, will consistently hit a Diamana Red Board lower and with less spin than a Diamana White Board of similar weight.

Its the golfer swinging the shaft....outliners exist but variables within each golfers swing dictates how one delivers the clubhead

 

A person with an over the top move will inevitably close the clubface at impact - early release promotes increase in dynamic loft at impact. 

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, ShowMe said:

 

For example, a shaft that weighs more will flight lower than the exact same shaft in a lighter weight.  A shaft with a lower tip torque will flight lower than one with a higher tip torque in the same model.  And so on.  

 

I mean, it's hard to believe that somebody, for example, will consistently hit a Diamana Red Board lower and with less spin than a Diamana White Board of similar weight.

 

Hard to believe only if we assume everyone responds to things the same way. A softer feeling shaft can impact delivery and release, causing someone to unconsciously "hold off" the club and present less dynamic loft, overriding the shafts tendency to want to produce more. Same thing in reverse with the Whiteboard, someone feels the lack of loading by comparison in the Whiteboard type shaft and either swings harder or tries to "help" it up, two things that can lead to more presented loft, especially if the harder swing exacerbates a flipping problem.

 

On the pro side, look at Tony Finau who has literally played both in his driver, Diamana RF and now the D+LTD. for him he said the RF just helped him start the ball more left at the time for his favored cut. And Tyrell Hatton who plays the RF in his driver but the DF in his fairways. 

 

The same goes for your comment about weight and torque. Heavier weight can lead to the same kind of "helping up" as the stiffer shaft profile and cause higher launch and spin. Torque also does not impact launch, it simply often correlates with tip stiffness, but this can vary as well. There are some softer tipped designs that also have pretty low torque.  

[ShowMe]

7 hours ago, Valtiel said:

 

Hard to believe only if we assume everyone responds to things the same way. A softer feeling shaft can impact delivery and release, causing someone to unconsciously "hold off" the club and present less dynamic loft, overriding the shafts tendency to want to produce more. Same thing in reverse with the Whiteboard, someone feels the lack of loading by comparison in the Whiteboard type shaft and either swings harder or tries to "help" it up, two things that can lead to more presented loft, especially if the harder swing exacerbates a flipping problem.

 

On the pro side, look at Tony Finau who has literally played both in his driver, Diamana RF and now the D+LTD. for him he said the RF just helped him start the ball more left at the time for his favored cut. And Tyrell Hatton who plays the RF in his driver but the DF in his fairways. 

 

The same goes for your comment about weight and torque. Heavier weight can lead to the same kind of "helping up" as the stiffer shaft profile and cause higher launch and spin. Torque also does not impact launch, it simply often correlates with tip stiffness, but this can vary as well. There are some softer tipped designs that also have pretty low torque.  

 

Actually, you've made my point for me - "overriding the shafts tendency..."

 

My point is that each shaft has specific characteristics that produce a tendency for high/low launch, spin, etc..  And that those characteristics and tendencies apply to everybody who uses a given shaft.  

 

Now, of course somebody could try to override a shaft's tendency, but the tendency remains a constant, independent of how somebody tries to override it.

 

Regarding Finau and Hatton, it sounds like they prefer softer shafts for some things (like launch window, perhaps) and firmer shafts for other reasons.  Or maybe their driver face was too low spin, so they needed a shaft with more spin to reach their target spin rate or launch window.  That's not at all unusual.  I've done that.

[Valtiel]

4 hours ago, ShowMe said:

 

Actually, you've made my point for me - "overriding the shafts tendency..."

 

My point is that each shaft has specific characteristics that produce a tendency for high/low launch, spin, etc..  And that those characteristics and tendencies apply to everybody who uses a given shaft.  

 

Now, of course somebody could try to override a shaft's tendency, but the tendency remains a constant, independent of how somebody tries to override it.

 

Regarding Finau and Hatton, it sounds like they prefer softer shafts for some things (like launch window, perhaps) and firmer shafts for other reasons.  Or maybe their driver face was too low spin, so they needed a shaft with more spin to reach their target spin rate or launch window.  That's not at all unusual.  I've done that.

You could look at it that way, but the problem comes from the relative strength of the two things we're comparing here. The range of a shaft's "tendency" is actually very small. Our high launch Red shaft may only be capable of producing in extra degree or two of dynamic loft at impact over a White profile, whereas our ability to compensate/correct/adjust both intentional and not, combined the natural variance in delivery could account for more than double that. So yes, a shaft will have an inherent "potential" that leans one way or the other, but one that can end up being completely overshadowed by the human element.

 

This is especially true given how that human element mixes with strike location, which has by far the greatest potential for altering launch and spin. It is for that reason that a shaft producing the best strike consistency is normally what is favored, whatever shaft that may be, with launch and spin primarily handled by loft choice and potentially CG manipulation. 

[Stuart_G]

5 hours ago, ShowMe said:

 

Actually, you've made my point for me - "overriding the shafts tendency..."

 

My point is that each shaft has specific characteristics that produce a tendency for high/low launch, spin, etc..  And that those characteristics and tendencies apply to everybody who uses a given shaft.  

 

You can argue semantics if you want but it wont change the fact that what will happen to the ball flight will not always match those marketed characteristics when someone uses their "normal" swing.

 

 

5 hours ago, ShowMe said:

Now, of course somebody could try to override a shaft's tendency, but the tendency remains a constant, independent of how somebody tries to override it.

 

You realize he's not talking about a conscious attempt or act to change the ball flight contrary to those "characteristics."     They're getting contrary results without trying to.

 

And no, even for those that will see changes in line for the labeled "characteristics" - it's not constant at all.

 

There are basically two ways or two types of individuals for which those characteristics will not effect the ball flight in the anticipated way.

 

1) Early release players.     The shaft characteristics are largely labeled based on the shaft stiffness (not weight) - particularly the stiffness of the tip section.    As the player releases the club, the shaft unloads and ends up with some forward bend at impact.   The softer the shaft, the more forward bend, and the more dynamic loft is added at impact.   That would equate to a higher launch/spin shaft.

BUT the earlier release, the more of that forward bend is lost as it unloads a second time back to the neutral position.    So once the release becomes early enough, all that forward bend can be lost and the player might not see any difference in launch between a high and low launch shaft.

 

So if and how much the flight might correspond to the characteristics will be very dependent on the specifics of the players mechanics, not constant at all.

 

This is the actual basis behind - and what mostly determines - the marketed shaft characteristics.   Some marketing departments will try to go beyond that though and can start trying to sell us on a proverbial high launch/low spin shaft - as if it were possible for the launch and spin characteristics to be independent of each other.   There is no actual basis in the physics of how the shaft works to support that type of shaft - so you have to take what comes out of the marketing publications with a grain of salt.

 

It should also be noted that this aspect of the influence isn't really all that large - except maybe when someone is intentionally swinging a shaft where the overall stiffness is much softer than would be typical for the players swing speed - that can exaggerate it a bit.

 

But that correlation between the shaft stiffness and the launch/spin - depends on one very important (and frequently not true) assumption.   That the player's swing will be identical in every other way when swinging the two shafts being compared.   That can be true for robot testing of the shafts but we're not robots - so that leads us to the second type of player

 

2) The Human factor - when feel of the shaft becomes important.

 

We're not robots and most of us can't ignore the change in feel coming from the shaft as we swing.

Some people learn to swing in a way that relies on the feel from the club to help them control the swing (in addition to using feels from their own body to control it.   Some do it more than others.   Why thy do it and why it effects the results is a very complex topic so I'll skip over what details I do know about it.  But it is a know fact that those feels can and do influence the swing and the delivery.  The feels we may depend on can include the total club weight (shaft weight), the swing weight (head weight feel) and the loading/unloading feel (stiffness).

 

When the feel from the shaft changes, the swing can change in lots of different ways:  plane, path, body sequencing out of sync, face control, 'normal' release timing thrown off, and dispersion (among others).  These reactions are not predictable or consistent between different individuals.   Sometimes they will be completely opposite of what the differences in "characteristics" might say, in other cases they may exaggerate what the different "characteristics" might imply.   The weight feels tend to be more influential on the swing among a higher percentage of players but there are still plenty that also depend on the stiffness feels - or loading/unloading feel.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Stuart_G

[NRJyzr]

On 9/25/2021 at 3:40 PM, Valtiel said:

Hard to believe only if we assume everyone responds to things the same way. A softer feeling shaft can impact delivery and release, causing someone to unconsciously "hold off" the club and present less dynamic loft, overriding the shafts tendency to want to produce more. Same thing in reverse with the Whiteboard, someone feels the lack of loading by comparison in the Whiteboard type shaft and either swings harder or tries to "help" it up, two things that can lead to more presented loft, especially if the harder swing exacerbates a flipping problem.

 

Friend of mine was messing with shafts with driver.  He was experimenting with R, S, and X flexes.  The regular leaked out left (LH).  He hooked the X.  The Stiff was his Goldilocks, it was just right.

 

The common wisdom, of course, suggests the complete opposite.  

 

Funny how it works.  🙂

 

[animalgolfs]

14 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Friend of mine was messing with shafts with driver.  He was experimenting with R, S, and X flexes.  The regular leaked out left (LH).  He hooked the X.  The Stiff was his Goldilocks, it was just right.

 

The common wisdom, of course, suggests the complete opposite.  

 

Funny how it works.  🙂

 

He wasn't fulling loading the X -it snapped back at impact, closing the face. Over loaded the R, leaving face open at impact. See it all the time....

[NRJyzr]

7 minutes ago, animalgolfs said:

He wasn't fulling loading the X -it snapped back at impact, closing the face. Over loaded the R, leaving face open at impact. See it all the time....

 

If he wasn't loading the X, could it actually snap back?  🙂

 

My take on what he was doing is, he was holding off the release of the R, due to the extra loading of the shaft.  And, he was over-releasing the X, to compensate for the lesser shaft load.

 

[animalgolfs]

3 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

If he wasn't loading the X, could it actually snap back?  🙂

 

My take on what he was doing is, he was holding off the release of the R, due to the extra loading of the shaft.  And, he was over-releasing the X, to compensate for the lesser shaft 

Fully loading

[Stuart_G]

56 minutes ago, animalgolfs said:

Over loaded the R, leaving face open at impact. See it all the time....

 

Never can happen that way (at least the way I think you're implying it happened).  The club has to be released (and hands stall) in order to hit the ball and the shaft will always unload before impact. 

 

Now the feel can cause the player to mess up his release timing or sequencing so the face can be left open, but it's not because the shaft is still loaded at impact.

 

And there is no such thing as "fully loaded".   The only concept of "right" or "wrong" or "enough" or "too much" loading is purely dependent on the subjective evaluation of the player on what they felt - usually relative to what they are expecting to feel, or think they should be feeling.   Neither the shaft, nor the ball, nor the physics of the swing care about how much loading happens.

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Stuart_G

[animalgolfs]

21 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Never can happen that way (at least the way I think you're implying it happened).  The club has to be released (and hands stall) in order to hit the ball and the shaft will always unload before impact. 

 

Now the feel can cause the player to mess up his release timing or sequencing so the face can be left open, but it's not because the shaft is still loaded at impact.

 

And there is no such thing as "fully loaded".   The only concept of "right" or "wrong" or "enough" or "too much" loading is purely dependent on the subjective evaluation of the player on what they felt - usually relative to what they are expecting to feel, or think they should be feeling.   Neither the shaft, nor the ball, nor the physics of the swing care about how much loading happens.

 

Hang on Stu....it does matter loading, as it relates to torque....hopefully I'm relating. Doesn't the torque applied & specifically when and where that energy gets released....as the un-/hinging of wrists / shoulders ? I mean everyone applies that energy quite differently- hence my interpretation loading pressure on a shaft...

 

Doesn't an early release type swing - release pressure earlier? Vs a very late release player? A very weak swing[me] doesn't load a shaft quite like a Sergio no? 

[Stuart_G]

31 minutes ago, animalgolfs said:

Hang on Stu....it does matter loading, as it relates to torque....hopefully I'm relating. Doesn't the torque applied & specifically when and where that energy gets released....as the un-/hinging of wrists / shoulders ? I mean everyone applies that energy quite differently- hence my interpretation loading pressure on a shaft...

 

I'll try to clarify but not 100% I'm directly addressing your point/questions.  So don't hesitate to expand on the point you're trying to make or questions you're asking.

 

First of all, most of the significant loading/unloading in the shaft is from the longitudinal stiffness, not the torsional stiffness.  So torque rarely plays much of a part in the loading/unloading that is going on.

 

The amount of loading by itself isn't representative to the amount of energy stored in to the shaft.  That's really dictated by the swing mechanics (and head weight) and independent of the shaft stiffness.  For the same swing, the softer shaft will load more than a stiffer shaft but the total energy stored in the shaft - and then subsequently released - will be the same.  For two different swings and the same shaft, if one swing causes the shaft to load more - it's because the swing put more energy into the shaft and the swing speed was higher.  The loading isn't what's causing the additional speed, it's just a different consequence of the different swing mechanics.

 

So simply put - the swing mechanics dictate energy in/out of the shaft,  the stiffness just dictates the amount of deflection it takes to store that energy.   it also has some effect on the time it takes to load/unload - so can certainly effect the coordination of the swing to apply the energy - just not really the amount of energy.

 

The shaft loading/unloading doesn't really add any significant energy to the impact.  This has been studied in depth on a few occasions.  It's a bit complex but the simple over view is that more loading and a later release really mean the hands need to stall more to achieve a good impact.  The added "kick velocity" from the shaft unloading is counteracted by the greater declaration of the hands.  So there is little net gain for a later release or more loading in the shaft (as far as the shaft contribution is concerned - the relative efficiency of the different mechanics is a different matter).

 

 

31 minutes ago, animalgolfs said:

Doesn't an early release type swing - release pressure earlier? Vs a very late release player? A very weak swing[me] doesn't load a shaft quite like a Sergio no? 

 

Yes.  But what that really means is just that there will be less forward bend of the shaft at impact - and less dynamic loft added compared to a late release. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Stuart_G

[animalgolfs]

27 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

Yes.  But what that really means is just that there will be less forward bend of the shaft at impact - and less dynamic loft added compared to a late release. 

Pretty much what I'm trying to translate....Minimal loading = less forwarded = less effective = closed face = low left no?

[Stuart_G]

27 minutes ago, animalgolfs said:

Pretty much what I'm trying to translate....Minimal loading = less forwarded = less effective = closed face = low left no?

 

Almost.  Yes, less loading means less loft and low but it also means less closed face and less left.

 

For the late release player, (and assuming no change to the swing due to the change in feel from the shaft):

1) a softer shaft will have more forward bend at impact (more loft and more closed face) and therefore give a shot that's a little more left and a little higher. 

2) A stiffer shaft would be less forward bend at impact (but still some) a little less left and a little lower.

 

But these are usually relatively small.  Any significant changes in the ball flight due to a change in stiffness will generally be from changes to the swing that are driven by the change in feel.  And in that case, anything is possible.

 

The shaft itself can't leave the face open for a right miss, so right misses all come from the swing (maybe indirectly from the shaft due to feel).

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Stuart_G

[Howard_Jones]

On 9/26/2021 at 6:14 AM, ShowMe said:

My point is that each shaft has specific characteristics that produce a tendency for high/low launch, spin, etc..  And that those characteristics and tendencies apply to everybody who uses a given shaft.  

 

A few words about shaft profiles and ball flight.
- A shaft can deliver more, or less Dynamic loft due to bending, but added dynamic loft, is a question of how you load and release the shaft, and the simplified way to "see" it, is by imagine a large analog clock behind the player.

The players arm and where they point, tells us where we are in the swing, and from the top at 12:00, there is 7 hours down to the ball a bit forward in the stance with the driver (5 o clock).

If the player has shorter load time, then unload time / release time, the shaft will NOT deliver any extra as dynamic loft. The shaft bending we built up, to be released the other way, was at max forward shaft-bending long before our club head got to the ball.

Now back to the clock on the wall, and 3.5 hours down from 12, thats at 8:30. Players who starts release of the club at 8:30 or higher (earlier), will NOT see any difference in ball flight, from high to low launch, UNLESS that profile, triggers the player to swing the club differently, but that can move us the opposite direction of what the label indicate.

A "stiffer feel", (relative), will often speed up the players tempo, and use of power for the better or worse. A "softer feel", will often slow down a aggressive swinger, and potentially leads him into more use of swing tech, rhythm, timing and balance, instead of high tempo and misuse of power.

So, even if the profile itself might not make a difference for ball flight to you, the feel it delivers makes a influence on how you swing the club, so find a profile that "feels right" and works for you, and leave ball flight to the head and loft.
 

[animalgolfs]

3 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Almost.  Yes, less loading means less loft and low but it also means less closed face and less left.

 

For the late release player, (and assuming no change to the swing due to the change in feel from the shaft):

1) a softer shaft will have more forward bend at impact (more loft and more closed face) and therefore give a shot that's a little more left and a little higher. 

2) A stiffer shaft would be less forward bend at impact (but still some) a little less left and a little lower.

 

But these are usually relatively small.  Any significant changes in the ball flight due to a change in stiffness will generally be from changes to the swing that are driven by the change in feel.  And in that case, anything is possible.

 

The shaft itself can't leave the face open for a right miss, so right misses all come from the swing (maybe indirectly from the shaft due to feel).

 

 

9 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

A few words about shaft profiles and ball flight.
- A shaft can deliver more, or less Dynamic loft due to bending, but added dynamic loft, is a question of how you load and release the shaft, and the simplified way to "see" it, is by imagine a large analog clock behind the player.

The players arm and where they point, tells us where we are in the swing, and from the top at 12:00, there is 7 hours down to the ball a bit forward in the stance with the driver (5 o clock).

If the player has shorter load time, then unload time / release time, the shaft will NOT deliver any extra as dynamic loft. The shaft bending we built up, to be released the other way, was at max forward shaft-bending long before our club head got to the ball.

Now back to the clock on the wall, and 3.5 hours down from 12, thats at 8:30. Players who starts release of the club at 8:30 or higher (earlier), will NOT see any difference in ball flight, from high to low launch, UNLESS that profile, triggers the player to swing the club differently, but that can move us the opposite direction of what the label indicate.

A "stiffer feel", (relative), will often speed up the players tempo, and use of power for the better or worse. A "softer feel", will often slow down a aggressive swinger, and potentially leads him into more use of swing tech, rhythm, timing and balance, instead of high tempo and misuse of power.

So, even if the profile itself might not make a difference for ball flight to you, the feel it delivers makes a influence on how you swing the club, so find a profile that "feels right" and works for you, and leave ball flight to the head and loft.
 

Tips Hat to you both - for the fine explanation in thread 

[ShowMe]

7 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

So, even if the profile itself might not make a difference for ball flight to you, the feel it delivers makes a influence on how you swing the club, so find a profile that "feels right" and works for you, and leave ball flight to the head and loft.

 

I would rather you say to find a profile that "performs best" for you, as opposed to one that "feels right."  Because the best feeling shaft is not always the best performing shaft.

 

As an example, if I were to hit the same driver head with both a Blueboard shaft and a Whiteboard shaft and not know the results (e.g., hit both in a bay with no launch monitor), the Blueboard shaft would feel the most right to me.  However, if I were to turn on the launch monitor, I would discover that the Whiteboard shaft is performing much better for me.  This is a real world example for me, by the way.

 

As a result, I now know that the Whiteboard profile tends to work best for me in drivers, even though it doesn't feel the best for me.  This has been true, so far anyway, regardless of the club head used.