Shallowing the club - just another "over the top" fixer?

[chipa]

I returned to golf after stopping in 2010 and when I returned it seems "shallowing the club" has become practically the most common "must have technique". 

 

I believe dropping the club on a much flatter downswing plane than the backswing plane was criticized when I started playing golf, even though I'm aware that Ben Hogan did such a move. I do remember a "hip slide" with dropping the shoulder as another way to "shallow the club" although it wasn't promoted like this but rather a way to generate power.

 

Without understanding all the methods of "shallowing the club" I have come to the conclusion that it is an unnatural manipulation of the club on the downswing and is only for younger golfers without back and knee problems. I also believe there are easier ways to stop an over the top move w/o contorting the body.

[milesgiles]

yes its unnatural, for most of us. Its also critical. HOW you shallow is just as important, however.

 

I could be wrong.

[chipa]

2 hours ago, milesgiles said:

yes its unnatural, for most of us. Its also critical. HOW you shallow is just as important, however.

 

I could be wrong.

 

As far as I can can tell not all good players have shallowed the club significantly, nor much less on purpose, for example like Jack Nicklaus. That's one of the reasons I started this thread, I think many golfers feel this is now an essential move in golf, but imo no pro golfers do this on purpose as it is unnatural and robs them of clubhead speed.

[Zitlow]

I agree that shallowing isn't something you need to think about. I'd never heard of the motorcycle move until I read about it here a couple of years ago.

 

Cocking the hands up puts the clubface a couple feet above the plane the ball is on so IMO they came up with a move to get the clubface looking at the ball. 

[chipa]

7 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

I agree that shallowing isn't something you need to think about. I'd never heard of the motorcycle move until I read about it here a couple of years ago.

 

Cocking the hands up puts the clubface a couple feet above the plane the ball is on so IMO they came up with a move to get the clubface looking at the ball. 

 

I agree. It appears to be another swing fixer. What has surprised me is that so many here on the forum apparently seem to think it is an essential "move" for the golf swing. 

 

BTW, I don't have problems with any swing theory as long as people know the negative potential health consequences of the technique. The golf swing isn't supposed to permanently hurt the human body.

Edited September 24, 2021 by chipa

[Hawkeye77]

3 hours ago, chipa said:

I returned to golf after stopping in 2010 and when I returned it seems "shallowing the club" has become practically the most common "must have technique". 

 

I believe dropping the club on a much flatter downswing plane than the backswing plane was criticized when I started playing golf, even though I'm aware that Ben Hogan did such a move. I do remember a "hip slide" with dropping the shoulder as another way to "shallow the club" although it wasn't promoted like this but rather a way to generate power.

 

Without understanding all the methods of "shallowing the club" I have come to the conclusion that it is an unnatural manipulation of the club on the downswing and is only for younger golfers without back and knee problems. I also believe there are easier ways to stop an over the top move w/o contorting the body.

You don’t understand it. 

[Barfolomew]

Welcome back to golf after 10 years... I took a 20 year break from 1995-2015. 

 

The thing is everyone still sucks at golf and its just the latest desperate attempt to explain why.... come back in another 10 years and they'll say everyone is too flat

[Precis1on]

Most pros are pros for a reason, shallowing the club comes naturally to most of them, to the point where some need to think steep actions (Sergio, Noren). 

 

For the rest of us average joes, going steep feels like power, feels like speed, therefore we do it. Shallowing some / enough is important, but also getting your setup, backswing, transition correct is also important. Doesn't matter how much you shallow if you aren't set up properly everywhere else in the chain to hit the ball. 

[Hilts1969]

1 hour ago, chipa said:

 

I agree. It appears to be another swing fixer. What has surprised me is that so many here on the forum apparently seem to think it is an essential "move" for the golf swing. 

 

BTW, I don't have problems with any swing theory as long as people know the negative potential health consequences of the technique. The golf swing isn't supposed to permanently hurt the human body.

 

Why would shallowing the club hurt the body?  Shallowing the club late certainly can which is a response to being steep. 

[chipa]

24 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

Why would shallowing the club hurt the body?  Shallowing the club late certainly can which is a response to being steep. 

 

If you're 25 it probably won't hurt you. However, if you are 50+ it probably will because it is an unnatural movement.

 

 

[chipa]

44 minutes ago, Precis1on said:

Most pros are pros for a reason, shallowing the club comes naturally to most of them, to the point where some need to think steep actions (Sergio, Noren). 

 

For the rest of us average joes, going steep feels like power, feels like speed, therefore we do it. Shallowing some / enough is important, but also getting your setup, backswing, transition correct is also important. Doesn't matter how much you shallow if you aren't set up properly everywhere else in the chain to hit the ball. 

 

With all due respect why do so many assume shallowing the club is a "must technique"? Jack Nicklaus' downswing plane was not much shallower than his backswing plane.

 

IMO purposely shallowing the club is just a fix for an over the top movement, like pulling the left hip or leg back.

[Tupperwolf]

Sergio is a hip slotter, it's how he's built.  Similar to Jack being a shoulder slotter, it's how he's built.

 

Most golfers would do better figuring out where their backswing plane should be and letting it rip from the top and not worrying about intentionally shallowing.  This is IMO from a hack...

[RoyalMustang]

If I don't think about shallowing the club, I get into trouble. 

 

However, for me, it is slightly different.  I need to keep my right elbow tucked in on the backswing: otherwise, I tend to pull the club too far back instead of rotating with my shoulders.  Rotating with my shoulders brings my left shoulder over the ball and allows me to set up at the top, which allows me to reset, being my hips and shoulders, and results in a natural shallowing of the club on the downswing.  

 

Now, I am not "trying" to shallow the club but if I am not hitting well, it is because I am too steep and quick, and that is a result of not getting turned properly with my shoulders.  Thinking of shallowing and maintaining plane, also hitting the back and inside of the ball, allows me to think of shallowing it. I can't get to the inside back of the ball without being shallow enough; it kind of happens naturally.  Otherwise, I come over the top (not recommended!)

[chipa]

1 minute ago, RoyalMustang said:

If I don't think about shallowing the club, I get into trouble. 

 

However, for me, it is slightly different.  I need to keep my right elbow tucked in on the backswing: otherwise, I tend to pull the club too far back instead of rotating with my shoulders.  Rotating with my shoulders brings my left shoulder over the ball and allows me to set up at the top, which allows me to reset, being my hips and shoulders, and results in a natural shallowing of the club on the downswing.  

 

Now, I am not "trying" to shallow the club but if I am not hitting well, it is because I am too steep and quick, and that is a result of not getting turned properly with my shoulders.  Thinking of shallowing and maintaining plane, also hitting the back and inside of the ball, allows me to think of shallowing it. I can't get to the inside back of the ball without being shallow enough; it kind of happens naturally.  Otherwise, I come over the top (not recommended!)

 

I don't think any manipulated movement on the downswing is good long term for the body in spite of it making it easier to square the clubhead. 

 

 

[chipa]

6 minutes ago, Tupperwolf said:

Sergio is a hip slotter, it's how he's built.  Similar to Jack being a shoulder slotter, it's how he's built.

 

Most golfers would do better figuring out where their backswing plane should be and letting it rip from the top and not worrying about intentionally shallowing.  This is IMO from a hack...

 

What I've noticed in approx. 1000 rounds of public golf mostly playing with hi hc'ers and also looking at swings with an interest in learning the swing is that I can't remember any players with an over the top move that also had a decent weightshift and pushed off their right leg at the beginning of the downswing. 

 

On the contrary, one never sees a player with an over the top move if he pushes off his right side, at worst you might see them fly the right elbow(that's what I do and many baseball players) but as long as they don't have the right hand too far under the club and don't pull back too far w/the right hand the weightshift will generally get the right arm back into position. 

[Hilts1969]

23 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

If you're 25 it probably won't hurt you. However, if you are 50+ it probably will because it is an unnatural movement.

 

 

You still haven’t said why it would hurt you. 

[chipa]

11 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

You still haven’t said why it would hurt you. 

 

I'm 56 and I have tried various techniques to "fix" my swing during the downswing and they always hurt me after some time, generally my back or my left knee although I've seen people here complain of hip problems.

 

Many other older players say the same thing, it's not worth it and to rather focus on the setup, takeaway and backswing to fix any downswing problems.

 

However, I see the flood on info out there on Youtube leads people to believe they can fix their slice permanently doing some "magic move", something no pro ever does btw.

[Hilts1969]

27 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

I'm 56 and I have tried various techniques to "fix" my swing during the downswing and they always hurt me after some time, generally my back or my left knee although I've seen people here complain of hip problems.

 

Many other older players say the same thing, it's not worth it and to rather focus on the setup, takeaway and backswing to fix any downswing problems.

 

However, I see the flood on info out there on Youtube leads people to believe they can fix their slice permanently doing some "magic move", something no pro ever does btw.

 

Best leave it you won't or can't say why. May as well say don't wear a green glove as you will get gout 

[Shanker84]

I think it's also entirely possible that it's not the shallowing move itself that's hurting you but the fact that you're doing something DIFFERENT that's causing some pain/discomfort. I played with a buddy the other day who has never played golf and he's a very fit crossfit guy and the next day he was telling me how surprised he was of how sore and how wrecked his body felt. 

 

It's also possible that the WAY you're shallowing it is causing the problem. 

 

I wouldn't really know, I can't really shallow the club to save my life. 

[Precis1on]

1 hour ago, chipa said:

 

With all due respect why do so many assume shallowing the club is a "must technique"? Jack Nicklaus' downswing plane was not much shallower than his backswing plane.

 

IMO purposely shallowing the club is just a fix for an over the top movement, like pulling the left hip or leg back.

 

You kinda answered your own question. The answer is that you shallow SOME. Jack doesn't much, but he does shallow it, even if it's not a lot. 99% of the rest of us steepen it. OTT is not the only problem for golfers. There are a lot of folks aren't OTT but steepen early and have 2 way misses from 5-15 handicaps. Learning to get shallow early (and properly) begins to eliminate that two way miss.

 

My guess is you're looking at the mass influx of instruction right now on "gotta do x, y, z" and you'll shallow the club. And you're also probably seeing vids of folks going EXTREME on how they shallow. You probably haven't found the correct matching piece that fits the rest of your move / feels good to your body (health wise as well). If you're having issues moving the body to shallow the club, maybe take a look at Monte's NTC or Broomforce, which focuses more on shallowing properly with the hands and letting the body react. 

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Precis1on

[chipa]

11 minutes ago, Shanker84 said:

I think it's also entirely possible that it's not the shallowing move itself that's hurting you but the fact that you're doing something DIFFERENT that's causing some pain/discomfort. I played with a buddy the other day who has never played golf and he's a very fit crossfit guy and the next day he was telling me how surprised he was of how sore and how wrecked his body felt. 

 

It's also possible that the WAY you're shallowing it is causing the problem. 

 

I wouldn't really know, I can't really shallow the club to save my life. 

 

I have tried manipulating the club on the way down but quit quite a while ago and won't return.

Edited September 24, 2021 by chipa

[chipa]

6 minutes ago, Precis1on said:

 

You kinda answered your own question. The answer is that you shallow SOME. Jack doesn't much, but he does shallow it, even if it's not a lot. 99% of the rest of us steepen it. OTT is not the only problem for golfers. There are a lot of folks aren't OTT but steepen early and have 2 way misses from 5-15 handicaps. Learning to get shallow early (and properly) begins to eliminate that two way miss.

 

My guess is you're looking at the mass influx of instruction right now on "gotta do x, y, z" and you'll shallow the club. And you're also probably seeing vids of folks going EXTREME on how they shallow. You probably haven't found the correct matching piece that fits the rest of your move / feels good to your body (health wise as well). If you're having issues moving the body to shallow the club, maybe take a look at Monte's NTC or Broomforce, which focuses more on shallowing properly with the hands and letting the body react. 

 

 

I no longer try to manipulate the golf club on the way down because it hurts plus I have a radar and see it only robs clubhead speed.

[chipa]

50 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

Best leave it you won't or can't say why. May as well say don't wear a green glove as you will get gout 

 

I already made it clear I thought that it hurts when I try to manipulate the clubhead on the way down. Plus I have a radar and see it robs me of at least 10-20% of my max potential clubhead speed.

Edited September 24, 2021 by chipa

[MountainKing]

Jack 100% shallows.  If you're hurting yourself doing it,  you're not doing it right. If you're losing distance or quality of strike, you're not doing it right.   Monte has some of the best instruction to achieve this, look into some of it.

[MountainKing]

9 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

I already made it clear I thought that it hurts when I try to manipulate the clubhead on the way down. Plus I have a radar and see it robs me of at least 10-20% of my max potential clubhead speed.

 

You shouldn't have to manipulate. Figure out what's preventing you from pivoting correctly and fix that.  

[chipa]

6 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

You shouldn't have to manipulate. Figure out what's preventing you from pivoting correctly and fix that.  

 

I think getting your weight on the right leg sufficiently will fix any pivot or over the top moves. After all there are many ways to pivot if one looks at pros, but what they all have in common is how well they push off their right leg. On the contrary I've never seen a guy with an over the top move push off his right leg well, nor a person that "spins their hips" too early. I see it's not possible to spin the hips when there is no weight on the left foot, just like a baseball batter.

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, chipa said:

 

If you're 25 it probably won't hurt you. However, if you are 50+ it probably will because it is an unnatural movement.

 

 

I am, it doesn’t, you don’t know what you are talking about. 

[chipa]

15 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

Jack 100% shallows.  If you're hurting yourself doing it,  you're not doing it right. If you're losing distance or quality of strike, you're not doing it right.   Monte has some of the best instruction to achieve this, look into some of it.

 

I said Jack's downswing plane was flatter than his backswing plane. What I said is that he never did it consciously - but that's what is being taught now. No wonder people have a problem generating clubhead speed.

 

 

[chipa]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye77 said:

I am, it doesn’t, you don’t know what you are talking about. 

 

I'm glad it doesn't bother you. Nonetheless, there are other guys on the forum that say manipulating the club on the way down with unnatural moves will hurt you. 

[MountainKing]

2 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

I said Jack's downswing plane was flatter than his backswing plane. What I said is that he never did it consciously - but that's what is being taught now. No wonder people have a problem generating clubhead speed.

 

 

 

If a teacher is teaching only how to shallow  I would run as fast as I could away from that teacher.  That's a bad teacher.

 

Shallowing however isn't a new concept, it's been part of the swing and teaching for decades.

Edited September 24, 2021 by MountainKing