Shallowing the club - just another "over the top" fixer?

[Precis1on]

52 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

I think that if someone has to manipulate their body or the club on the way down they have done something wrong beforehand, and that they will never reach their max potential clubhead speed nor efficiency, in addition to hurting themselves long term with unnatural contortions to shallow the club.

 

I'm not sure why training your body to be MORE efficient is wrong. Yes there are extremes, but let's talk the median here. If my natural, "athletic" instinct is to lift my left shoulder up to shallow the club (wrong), why would I not put the effort in to correct it? Just because my body moves naturally, doesn't mean it's moving correctly. I blew out my knee fencing in HS+college for a reason. My natural movement was causing me a lot of damage.

 

Oh it took me 2 years the fix the mentioned problem above. Gained 7 mph on the driver when it was all said and done. I'd do it again (I am for another issue).

 

 

 

 

[iteachgolf]

47 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

If you are referring to me the only advice I have offered is not contort your body unnaturally on the downswing (you as a professional should agree) and push off your right leg to start the swing, which I think is a natural move most people do hitting a softball or throwing a ball.

Throwing a ball or swinging a bat isn’t natural at all.  It’s a learned skill.  Go ask your average European to throw a ball and you’ll see it’s not natural. Or go watch a TBall practice and watch how bad kids throw and swing.  These are all learned skills. They become “natural” after learning them. 

[iteachgolf]

47 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

If you are referring to me the only advice I have offered is not contort your body unnaturally on the downswing (you as a professional should agree) and push off your right leg to start the swing, which I think is a natural move most people do hitting a softball or throwing a ball.

Throwing a ball or swinging a bat isn’t natural at all.  It’s a learned skill.  Go ask your average European to throw a ball and you’ll see it’s not natural. Or go watch a TBall practice and watch how bad kids throw and swing.  These are all learned skills. They become “natural” after learning them. 

[chipa]

15 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Shallowing isn’t manipulating. 

 

I'm glad it's not for you buddy.

[chipa]

5 minutes ago, Precis1on said:

 

I'm not sure why training your body to be MORE efficient is wrong. Yes there are extremes, but let's talk the median here. If my natural, "athletic" instinct is to lift my left shoulder up to shallow the club (wrong), why would I not put the effort in to correct it? Just because my body moves naturally, doesn't mean it's moving correctly. I blew out my knee fencing in HS+college for a reason. My natural movement was causing me a lot of damage.

 

Oh it took me 2 years the fix the mentioned problem above. Gained 7 mph on the driver when it was all said and done. I'd do it again (I am for another issue).

 

 

 

 

 

I'm glad you found a fix. However, from what I have seen there are a lot of recommended shallowing methods that will hurt the body long term - I'm not the only one to point this out.

[chipa]

2 minutes ago, iteachgolf said:

Throwing a ball or swinging a bat isn’t natural at all.  It’s a learned skill.  Go ask your average European to throw a ball and you’ll see it’s not natural. Or go watch a TBall practice and watch how bad kids throw and swing.  These are all learned skills. They become “natural” after learning them. 

 

A monkey can learn to throw on its own in the wild, so while it's a learned ability its also not something that requires any explanation either just practice.

[iteachgolf]

I think you should look up the definition of manipulate.  Every great golf swing is a manipulation of a club to achieve the desired outcome.  

[iteachgolf]

Just now, chipa said:

 

A monkey can learn to throw on its own in the wild, so while it's a learned ability its also not something that requires any explanation either just practice.

Can you throw a ball well?  A monkey can swing a club too. Doesn’t mean he can shoot under 120.  just throwing a ball is the equivalent of being able to get a golf ball airborne. 
 

The guys who throw a ball at the highest level absolutely think about it and all receive coaching on it.  

[glk]

1 minute ago, chipa said:

 

I'm glad you found a fix. However, from what I have seen there are a lot of recommended shallowing methods that will hurt the body long term - I'm not the only one to point this out.

What and who?    Explain these injurious methods and the people who point them out.     I doubt you can cause you don’t even understand what shallowing is - and it isn’t just a flatter downswing plane than the backswing.

[Precis1on]

11 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

I'm glad you found a fix. However, from what I have seen there are a lot of recommended shallowing methods that will hurt the body long term - I'm not the only one to point this out.

 

Minor correction, I found a really good coach (and listened to him). He's replied on this thread. To be honest, he has never told me to shallow the club. We work on correcting bad sequence which corrects poor positions which then shallow the club. I know that when I look at video, a shallow club combined with proper body movement probably means I did something correctly. 

 

Also on throwing a ball, you do understand that most of us would require a LOT of training to throw without injury, especially at high speeds, with high repetition. 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Precis1on

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, chipa said:

 

A monkey can learn to throw on its own in the wild, so while it's a learned ability its also not something that requires any explanation either just practice.

Flinging poo isn’t throwing from short to first. 

[RichieHunt]

1 hour ago, chipa said:

 

I'm glad you found a fix. However, from what I have seen there are a lot of recommended shallowing methods that will hurt the body long term - I'm not the only one to point this out.

 

You've altered your context from your original post that said.

 

I believe dropping the club on a much flatter downswing plane than the backswing plane was criticized when I started playing golf, even though I'm aware that Ben Hogan did such a move. I do remember a "hip slide" with dropping the shoulder as another way to "shallow the club" although it wasn't promoted like this but rather a way to generate power.

 

Without understanding all the methods of "shallowing the club" I have come to the conclusion that it is an unnatural manipulation of the club on the downswing and is only for younger golfers without back and knee problems. I also believe there are easier ways to stop an over the top move w/o contorting the body.

 

 

I believe the disconnect is that you have not specified what the 'move' is that is being taught that is unnatural and will hurt the body.  

 

Thus it comes off like you're against shallowing out the club altogether.  Re-reading your original post I get the idea that you're not actually against shallowing the club.  But you haven't given an example of what move you're talking about that you disagree with.

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[tthomasgolfer605]

 

[chipa]

To clarify my original post if I wasn't clear, I understand the downswing plane should be shallower than the backswing plane.

 

My issue is with unnatural bodily contortions to get it there, such as pulling the left hip or leg back or dropping the right shoulder. I am not the only 50+ year old golfer that says these types of unnatural moves will injure an older golfer.

 

Have a great golf weekend!

[GolfCsty]

16 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

It’s an unnatural and counterintuitive sequence of movements.

Monte said it best.
 

Because it’s counterintuitive is the reason virtually no one just picks up the game of golf and swings like the men and women out on tour. There’s plenty of athletic folks with good hand eye coordination who can fake a good swing and play relatively good golf but, because they don’t have the right concepts in their mind, they’ll plateau and fight consistency. Some of these folks are actually teaching the game for a living.

 

Once the concepts are understood, it still takes a good instructor and communicator to get them across. At that point there’s no need to force a shallowing move, or a hip bump/slide, or force the left hip backwards, or drive the right shoulder under, or any other move we see they great players making. They will happen “naturally”. 
 

So, yes, if someone is trying to stop an over the top move by simply making a shallowing move it may or may not hurt physically but their game has a good chance of being worse off for it. 
 

 

 

[thed0n]

22 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

Body Rotation in the downswing  is a steeping move 

Shallowing by the arms can be thought of an enabler for body rotation 

Yep, this is right.

But I don’t even know the point of this thread.  I don’t think any legit instructor is going to teach shallowing as a “body move” or “contortion” of the body.  Shallowing is a function of the trail shoulder, wrist, and/or forearm movement.  Or a combination of these movements.  These movements alone are not going to hurt your back or knee.  
 

However, shallowing through the “body” via (1) excessive trail side bend in the downswing or (1) through early extension of the hips can hurt your back or knees.  These movements are compensations for other flaws.  A golfer’s ability to make these compensations is probably compromised as they get older.  So yes, I would agree with the OP on that is point if that’s the point he’s trying to make.  But again, no legit instructor is going to teach you to shallow the club doing those two movements because proper shallowing is done through other movements in the trail shoulder, wrists, and forearms.

Edited September 25, 2021 by thed0n

[thed0n]

8 hours ago, chipa said:

To clarify my original post if I wasn't clear, I understand the downswing plane should be shallower than the backswing plane.

 

My issue is with unnatural bodily contortions to get it there, such as pulling the left hip or leg back or dropping the right shoulder. I am not the only 50+ year old golfer that says these types of unnatural moves will injure an older golfer.

 

Have a great golf weekend!

No legit instructor is going to teach shallowing through dropping the trail shoulder or sliding the hips forward to create excessive trail side bend as the shallowing move to fix a steep downswing, and also, no one is going to teach early extension of the hips as the shallowing move to fix the same.   No one here is going to argue for those type of movements as proper shallowing methods for a steep downswing.  Those types of shallowing movements are actually compensations for other swing flaws.

 

But if a golfer does not want to change certain swing flaws, then certainly an legit instructor will tell that golfer that he must play with said compensating movements in order to hit the ball, with the likely caveat that at some point down the line, the golfer’s ability to make those compensations will deteriorate due to age to which the golfer will hit the ball worse and worse.

Edited September 25, 2021 by thed0n

[thed0n]

50 minutes ago, 8-tracktape said:

 

Trail side bend is a perfectly fine way to shallow but its creation is not solely resigned to dropping a shoulder or sliding the hips.    

Edited my previous comment to clarify the context.

Edited September 25, 2021 by thed0n

[mgoblue83]

Tend to think of it as something that happens naturally with an athletic move that has good sequencing. Having to think about it mid-swing is a disaster waiting to happen. Most of the guys I see who are "trying" to shallow just end up with super flat back swings, reduced speed and no athleticism.

 

 

[Tpfol]

This thread is comical. Shallowing the club is a new concept? I guess the OP hadnt heard of David Leadbetter?

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

23 hours ago, chipa said:

To clarify my original post if I wasn't clear, I understand the downswing plane should be shallower than the backswing plane.

 

My issue is with unnatural bodily contortions to get it there, such as pulling the left hip or leg back or dropping the right shoulder. I am not the only 50+ year old golfer that says these types of unnatural moves will injure an older golfer.

 

Have a great golf weekend!

So basically in full retreat?  

 

I'm sure the whole pushing off with the right foot thing you've been advocating over and over as the "secret" to the golf swing is a completely "natural" move.

[thed0n]

2 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

So basically in full retreat?  

 

I'm sure the whole pushing off with the right foot thing you've been advocating over and over as the "secret" to the golf swing is a completely "natural" move.

Hahahaha, yeah man, I agree.

 

I have no idea what the OP is talking about anymore.  There’s mention of OTT and shallowing which are related but are not mutually exclusive concepts.

 

Then there’s mention of manipulations, body contortions, injuring the back and knees, and insinuation that certain instructors are teaching certain things but no exact mention of what those things are. If I read the OP anymore, I’m going to end up confusing myself.  So with that, I’m out!  Enjoy the last day of the Ryder Cup everyone!

Edited September 26, 2021 by thed0n

[Zitlow]

2 hours ago, Tpfol said:

This thread is comical. Shallowing the club is a new concept? I guess the OP hadnt heard of David Leadbetter?

 

 

 

David Leadbetter is the anti-Christ of golf instructors. 

[chipa]

2 hours ago, Tpfol said:

This thread is comical. Shallowing the club is a new concept? I guess the OP hadnt heard of David Leadbetter?

 

 

 

I pointed out that Nicklaus and TW downswing planes were flatter than the backswing, however, it was not considered good form before for the downswing plane to be much flatter. Please take the time to read all of my responses.

Edited September 26, 2021 by chipa

[chipa]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

So basically in full retreat?  

 

I'm sure the whole pushing off with the right foot thing you've been advocating over and over as the "secret" to the golf swing is a completely "natural" move.

 

Full retreat from what buddy??

[chipa]

36 minutes ago, thed0n said:

Hahahaha, yeah man, I agree.

 

I have no idea what the OP is taking about anymore.  There’s mention of OTT and shallowing which are related but are not mutually exclusive concepts.

 

Then there’s mention of manipulations, body contortions, injuring the back and knees, and insinuation that certain instructors are teaching certain things but no exact mention of what those things are. If I read the OP anymore, I’m going to end up confusing myself.  So with that, I’m out!  Enjoy the last day of the Ryder Cup everyone!

 

There is certainly instruction on youtube and this forum that includes bodily contortions like pulling the left hip back etc. 

 

If you don't believe me that's fine, hit em good today.

[Tpfol]

2 hours ago, chipa said:

 

I pointed out that Nicklaus and TW downswing planes were flatter than the backswing, however, it was not considered good form before for the downswing plane to be much flatter. Please take the time to read all of my responses.

I think you are the one who needs to read what you are writing as you contradict yourself over and over. You claimed that shallowing the club has become some sort of new fad when it has always been the primary goal of the downswing from Hogan, Nicklaus, Harvey Penick etc. I think what you are most confused with is comparing what is available today via Youtube, high def recording/playback to "10 + years ago" where DVD was considered "hi tech" and was replacing VHS. So the general public didnt have the angles/views that we have today. But rest assured, Mac O'Grady was all about it, as was Leadbetter.

The manipulation you keep referring to is what happens when amateurs mistakenly see the positions and try to emulate whereas instruction teaches how to be in those positions "naturally"

Seems to me it would do you some good to seek a professional to help you with your game

[Tpfol]

2 hours ago, Zitlow said:

 

David Leadbetter is the anti-Christ of golf instructors. 

I suppose the likes of Nick Faldo, Ernie Els, Nick Price etc would disagree with that, alas....

[chipa]

14 minutes ago, Tpfol said:

I think you are the one who needs to read what you are writing as you contradict yourself over and over. You claimed that shallowing the club has become some sort of new fad when it has always been the primary goal of the downswing from Hogan, Nicklaus, Harvey Penick etc. I think what you are most confused with is comparing what is available today via Youtube, high def recording/playback to "10 + years ago" where DVD was considered "hi tech" and was replacing VHS. So the general public didnt have the angles/views that we have today. But rest assured, Mac O'Grady was all about it, as was Leadbetter.

The manipulation you keep referring to is what happens when amateurs mistakenly see the positions and try to emulate whereas instruction teaches how to be in those positions "naturally"

Seems to me it would do you some good to seek a professional to help you with your game

 

I'm not confused and I don't think you are reading all of my posts. But I will restate it again and I apologize for any confusion I have caused.

 

I understand the club needs to be on a shallower downswing path.

 

I don't think just getting the club on a shallower path is a permanent fix to an over the top in and of itself if it involves contorting the body unnaturally.

 

Have a good golf day.

[Tpfol]

58 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

I'm not confused and I don't think you are reading all of my posts. But I will restate it again and I apologize for any confusion I have caused.

 

I understand the club needs to be on a shallower downswing path.

 

I don't think just getting the club on a shallower path is a permanent fix to an over the top in and of itself if it involves contorting the body unnaturally.

 

Have a good golf day.

Correct, getting the club on a shallower plane isnt a fix, it is merely the correct way. Over the top doesnt need to be fixed, it needs to be broken down and corrected as to allow the plane to be shallow.

If there's instruction out there saying to swing over the top, I'd hate to see it