The Best Ball Striker Of All Time

[Go Cougs]

5 hours ago, Lobby said:

The "Best Ball Striker of All Time" is somebody you've never heard of.   A guy, maybe a lady, who stripes the ball perfectly, every single time.

They're unknowns because they couldn't putt.  Or some other circumstance.

They're out there.

[ChrisSP]

1 hour ago, Stetson884 said:

What?! A lot Of PGA golfers rip it every time but can’t putt and still on on pga tour. Rory can’t putt. But he can hit the ball as good as anyone 

 

They type of Tour player you're talking about (Rory, Vijay, Adam Scott, Sergio, Keegan Bradley, etc.) "can't putt" by Tour standards.

 

But the worst putters on the PGA Tour putt better than anyone 99 percent of the people on this board have ever played with, especially when you consider how much more demanding the greens and pin locations are.

 

Apples to oranges.

[RainShadow]

On 9/26/2021 at 4:45 PM, tatertot said:

What is the definition of ball striker? 

 To be able to hit all the shots while controlling the distance.

Tiger, Jack, Trevino, Hogan, Nelson, Miller, Venturi, Greg Norman, Tom Watson,  are a few of the best ever, IMO.

Watching a video of Tiger working trajectories is a thing of beauty.

The was a similar film of Hogan doing a similar drill.

[iBanesto]

3 hours ago, dlygrisse said:

I wonder how the strokes gained stats were affected by the fact he was often hitting 3 wood off the tee?  Starting in 2001 his accuracy was horrible, just as I suspected.  By the time Haney was done with him, he had no idea how to hit a fairway with driver, 3 wood or 5 wood was his go to shot when he needed short grass.  His 2000 stats were other-worldly.  I mean no one had a chance when he was playing most weeks.  I still don't know what was more dominating, the US Open or The Open that year.   At least at St. Andrews some other guys showed up to play for a minute, so the margin of victory wasn't as big, but I honestly think his command over the golf ball was better than at Pebble.  

 

Valid points indeed.

 

Honestly I would take Tiger when he was using the Titleist 975D driver with the X100 shaft. As we know given his distance advantage, it didn't really matter if he was in the rough.

 

IMO the US Open was more dominating. Still remember how good old Miguel Angel Jimenez finished 2nd!

Edited September 30, 2021 by iBanesto

[bekgolf]

Sorry, tldr past the second page.

 

Did anyone mention Luke Donald?  He had a moment in time where everything seemed to go exactly where he wanted it to go.  In no way am I saying he was the best but he did have quite a streak of great ball striking.

[cardoustie]

Bobby Jones

Byron Nelson
Jimmy Demaret

Ben Hogan

Jack Nicklaus

Lee Trevino

Johnny Miller

 

Hogan himself has praised all the above in their ability to flat out pure it

[iBanesto]

1 hour ago, bekgolf said:

Sorry, tldr past the second page.

 

Did anyone mention Luke Donald?  He had a moment in time where everything seemed to go exactly where he wanted it to go.  In no way am I saying he was the best but he did have quite a streak of great ball striking.

 

Donald was never a great driver even during his prime. Short and crooked.

 

Love the guy though.

 

 

[ShowMe]

Johnny Miller in his prime.  Here's a great story:

 

But my favorite story was told recently by Senior Writer Guy Yocom, who ghost-wrote Miller’s aptly named book, I Call the Shots. (Yocom writes the splendid My Shot series, which this month takes on Bernhard Langer) Here’s a memory from Guy:

 

“One of my early assignments was to cover a Spalding outing in which they were rolling out a two-piece golf- ball successor to the famous Top-Flite, which traveled for miles but didn’t spin much and felt like hard ceramic at impact. The Tour Edition was purported to feel soft and spin nicely.

 

“To prove the new ball’s bonafides, Spalding held an outing at Pelham Country Club outside New York City and invited about 50 media to observe its three best staff players: Greg Norman, Craig Stadler and Miller. It was announced that each player would in turn hit 25 balls, aiming at a green 155 yards away. Stadler went first and played ‘call shot’ in impressive fashion, predicting how each ball would curve and how it would behave after hitting the green. All of the shots hit the green and several stopped within six feet of the flagstick. Cheers followed.

 

“Next up was Norman, who was in the prime of his career and much more impressive than Stadler. The Shark hit towering fades, draws and straight balls with astonishing accuracy, causing the ball to spin to the left, right or straight backward after landing, each one dancing exactly as he predicted. A few shots stopped within three feet of the hole. The onlookers were wild with their applause.

 

“Last to hit was Johnny. He’d been chatting with someone in the crowd and blithely ignoring what Norman and Stadler were doing. The way he strode past Stadler and Norman, seated in their collapsible chairs, was memorable. He looked at them dismissively, if not downright arrogantly, walking that imperious walk of his, kicking his feet out with each step, his legs straightening before they reached the ground.

 

“Miller asked for the distance—then he proceeded to show Stadler, Norman and the rest of us what serious ball-striking really was about. He hit low, crewcut-high screamers that made a divine noise you don’t hear in golf balls anymore. He hit three low ones like that, each tearing out a deep chunk on the green, skidding to a halt inches from the hole. ‘I can hit it high with this Tour Edition, too,’ he said, and hit a series of high floaters that didn’t spin at all but plopped dead next to the stick. Then he curved shots both ways, hit a couple of thin ones on purpose—they still braked to a halt—and hit some huge, looping, silly shots, as if he were bending them around a tree. He took almost no divot on any shot, shaving only the top of the grass. The crowd, instead of cheering, fell mostly silent, mesmerized as Johnny explained what he was doing.

 

“Two of Miller’s shots hit the flagstick. Another lipped out. After one of the flagstick-rattlers, he turned to Stadler and Norman and said in that super-confident tone we eventually got used to hearing on TV, ‘How would you guys like to do this for money?’ Their reaction was extraordinary. Stadler and Norman slunk back in their chairs. Years later, Miller would tell me how the dominant animal in the jungle holds its head higher than the lesser ones.”

[NevinW]

6 hours ago, ShowMe said:

Johnny Miller in his prime.  Here's a great story:

 

But my favorite story was told recently by Senior Writer Guy Yocom, who ghost-wrote Miller’s aptly named book, I Call the Shots. (Yocom writes the splendid My Shot series, which this month takes on Bernhard Langer) Here’s a memory from Guy:

 

“One of my early assignments was to cover a Spalding outing in which they were rolling out a two-piece golf- ball successor to the famous Top-Flite, which traveled for miles but didn’t spin much and felt like hard ceramic at impact. The Tour Edition was purported to feel soft and spin nicely.

 

“To prove the new ball’s bonafides, Spalding held an outing at Pelham Country Club outside New York City and invited about 50 media to observe its three best staff players: Greg Norman, Craig Stadler and Miller. It was announced that each player would in turn hit 25 balls, aiming at a green 155 yards away. Stadler went first and played ‘call shot’ in impressive fashion, predicting how each ball would curve and how it would behave after hitting the green. All of the shots hit the green and several stopped within six feet of the flagstick. Cheers followed.

 

“Next up was Norman, who was in the prime of his career and much more impressive than Stadler. The Shark hit towering fades, draws and straight balls with astonishing accuracy, causing the ball to spin to the left, right or straight backward after landing, each one dancing exactly as he predicted. A few shots stopped within three feet of the hole. The onlookers were wild with their applause.

 

“Last to hit was Johnny. He’d been chatting with someone in the crowd and blithely ignoring what Norman and Stadler were doing. The way he strode past Stadler and Norman, seated in their collapsible chairs, was memorable. He looked at them dismissively, if not downright arrogantly, walking that imperious walk of his, kicking his feet out with each step, his legs straightening before they reached the ground.

 

“Miller asked for the distance—then he proceeded to show Stadler, Norman and the rest of us what serious ball-striking really was about. He hit low, crewcut-high screamers that made a divine noise you don’t hear in golf balls anymore. He hit three low ones like that, each tearing out a deep chunk on the green, skidding to a halt inches from the hole. ‘I can hit it high with this Tour Edition, too,’ he said, and hit a series of high floaters that didn’t spin at all but plopped dead next to the stick. Then he curved shots both ways, hit a couple of thin ones on purpose—they still braked to a halt—and hit some huge, looping, silly shots, as if he were bending them around a tree. He took almost no divot on any shot, shaving only the top of the grass. The crowd, instead of cheering, fell mostly silent, mesmerized as Johnny explained what he was doing.

 

“Two of Miller’s shots hit the flagstick. Another lipped out. After one of the flagstick-rattlers, he turned to Stadler and Norman and said in that super-confident tone we eventually got used to hearing on TV, ‘How would you guys like to do this for money?’ Their reaction was extraordinary. Stadler and Norman slunk back in their chairs. Years later, Miller would tell me how the dominant animal in the jungle holds its head higher than the lesser ones.”

In Las Vegas, I saw what Miller could do with my own eyes.  It was just like what Yocum describes.  Miller could be pretty arrogant, but there was a reason.  

[Scully13]

I recommend watching the documentary on Moe Norman "The King of Swing". Pretty interesting stuff and the only official documentary on Moe Norman.

[kwcsports]

On 9/26/2021 at 6:54 PM, molecularman said:

Todd Graves IMO is a con artist.  

Towards the end of Moe's life, he renounced much of what he had preached and became convinced that Manuel de le Torra was the best instructor ever.  

Most tour pros that have seen Moe hit in person have stated he is the best they have ever seen.  That's good enough for me. 

I saw Moe at Ashburn Golf Club in Nova Scotia in the 80's. I agree with the Pros that say he was the best ball striker they have ever seen. Ball striker to me does not equate to best golfer, he was far from that. From a ball striking standpoint, he hit it flush everytime when I saw him. 

[braincramp52]

Annika Sorenstam

[iBanesto]

22 minutes ago, braincramp52 said:

Annika Sorenstam

 

Good call.

 

Lorena Ochoa was 1st in driving distance and 1st in GIR for the 2007 season.

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by iBanesto

[TheDeanAbides]

13 hours ago, RainShadow said:

 To be able to hit all the shots while controlling the distance.

Tiger, Jack, Trevino, Hogan, Nelson, Miller, Venturi, Greg Norman, Tom Watson,  are a few of the best ever, IMO.

Watching a video of Tiger working trajectories is a thing of beauty.

The was a similar film of Hogan doing a similar drill.

I would add to this that they just don't miss the sweet spot. They might not always have the ball on a string, but it's always solid. It's amazing how often even good tour pros hit from all over the face. Man, I've seen cold tops from major winners in the flesh. 

[DLBTide7]

Tiger

Nicklaus

Nick Price

Johnny Miller

Hogan 

 

[smashdn]

On 9/25/2021 at 7:30 PM, Hawkeye77 said:

Hogan would probably figure into that argument in a very big way. Trevino comes up often.  You almost never hear Nicklaus in that conversation - yep all he did was hit the irons and driver so solid he won everything, so did Snead, so did Tiger.  They were pretty good ball strikers, lol, and I don't care how often they were nice enough to give a nod to someone else (I'll bet Nicklaus and Tiger believe they are).

 

As much as I admire Hogan, and his post accident swing and come-back, his ball striking might be as good as it was just due to the sheer amount of time spent on and number of balls hit to perfect it.

 

For the purpose of "who was the best ball striker of all time" I would lean towards someone who just had natural ability to control the ball.  Maybe a Seve or Faldo.  Some include Sergio now but I may not have watched his game closely enough to comment.  I also question whether the modern ball (less spin) coupled with the fact that players today tend to not move the ball as much, factors into this.

 

Calvin Peete was renowned for his driving accuracy.  Bobby Jones has to be in the equation but it is so difficult to compare since he was playing with hickory in a totally different era and certainly not many vids of his swing or ball flight to judge. 

[Striker_Of_The_Ball]

Vijay Singh hands down. He literally hits balls on the same line and the same type of trajectory driver through lob wedge.

[golferdude54]

Tiger was better in 2006 with every club in his bag except the driver and putter compared to 2000. His best ball striking performance in 2006 was the 2006 WGC American Express Championship when he hit 37 greens in a row (still his record) and averaged 5.2 strokes combined off the tee and on approach shots, the highest anyone has ever done since ShotLink started (using datagolf.com adjusted stats, not PGA Tour stats).

 

According to Hank Haney, Tiger in his practice routine would start his 9 window drill (low, medium, high fade/straight/draw) with his lob wedge and move onto his sand wedge after accomplishing 9 in a row and then PW and so on, all the way up to driver which Haney admitted he'd struggle achieving the 9 flights with.

 

Oddly enough, there are biographical accounts of Hogan practicing with his shortest club first to hit to his shag ball caddy and then moving onto the next club up when he was satisfied, he did this all the way up to driver. Pretty interesting how both Tiger and Hogan practiced similarly, from shortest to longest.

Edited October 15, 2022 by golferdude54

[Hankshank]

Suppose there are a couple of Dufners out there that hates training putts and short game but love mastering the golf swing. The best one ever might be in that category. It would surprise me if there are not a couple of guys now active golfers that arent house hold names that are equals to Furyk and Rory. But with mediocre or bad short game. The thing talking for the celebs is that they use a considerable time and money perfecting their golf swings.

 

And then there might be a Moe out there who do use all his spare time, hits balls until his hands bleed and just own his swing, and that to a level of perfection equal with that of the top pros. I would just love that. Moe was the man, and one wonder what he could have done, without his disabilities.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Hankshank

[Hankshank]

Double post

Edited October 15, 2022 by Hankshank

[geesecougar2]

Objectively it's Tiger. 

 

He's had a lot of wins relying purely on ballstriking, and a lot relying on scrambling. But I bet there are 5-8 majors and 40+ Tour wins relying mostly on ballstriking. Those wins alone would make him top 10 best ever.

 

In the Haney era, he teed off with less than driver a lot and was consistently playing behind his partners but still racked up massive wins. Haney era Tiger was probably the best iron player of all time. 

 

He's the only great-great tippy top player that really worked it both ways consistently. Even the best ballstrikers would favor one shot, but he hit what the shot called for. His peers acknowledge he can birdie more holes precisely because he can work it into more pin locations.

 

He won majors with four different swings. 

[dcfas]

On 9/29/2021 at 10:10 PM, cardoustie said:

Bobby Jones

Byron Nelson
Jimmy Demaret

Ben Hogan

Jack Nicklaus

Lee Trevino

Johnny Miller

 

Hogan himself has praised all the above in their ability to flat out pure it

Thank you for including Bobby Jones. If anyone hasn’t seen the video clips of Jones I highly recommend them. The trajectory and shape of his shots remind me of artwork. 

Edited October 15, 2022 by dcfas

[iBanesto]

6 hours ago, Striker_Of_The_Ball said:

Vijay Singh hands down. He literally hits balls on the same line and the same type of trajectory driver through lob wedge.

 

Vijay Singh is definitely underrated.

 

🇫🇯

 

 

[cardoustie]

Adding in George Knudson, cigarettes were his downfall amongst a bad nerve / putting 

 

great story from my fitter 

 

his nephew was tweaking new irons for George at the range, Knudson came back and said it needed to be flatter

 

the nephew said “how do you know it’s the club and not you?”

 

Knudson replied “it’s the club kid, I never f’g miss it”

[golferdude54]

When it comes to Ben Hogan vs Moe Norman debates in terms of ball striking, NOT tournament records, I really think Moe wins this one. There are way more shots of Moe Norman on Youtube than Ben Hogan, in fact some swings that Ben Hogan has made were off.

 

For example, during the Shell's Wonderful World of Golf match against Sam Snead, a couple iron shots he came up off it after impact and had that weird loopy finish that you'd see Tiger do post 2007 compared to his usual Hoganesque finish. He got away with them obviously as he hit every fairway and green but even he made swings that were off from his usual swing. 

 

Meanwhile, of all the shots that Moe hit in the Youtube video archives, I don't think I ever saw him swing any different or off. It was exactly the same every time. The footwork was the same, his knee movement was the same, the way he finished was the same, there was never a swing that was "off" when he was hitting his stock shot. And he's hit so many shots compared to Hogan on Youtube because of him doing clinics where he's hitting hundreds of balls per video.

 

Snead competed with Ben in the middle of his prime from 1946 to 1953 and still admitted that Moe was the best ball striker he ever saw, I think that settles the debate. 

Edited October 15, 2022 by golferdude54

[Rapidcat]

10 minutes ago, golferdude54 said:

When it comes to Ben Hogan vs Moe Norman debates in terms of ball striking, NOT tournament records, I really think Moe wins this one. There are way more shots of Moe Norman on Youtube than Ben Hogan, in fact some swings that Ben Hogan has made were off.

 

For example, during the Shell's Wonderful World of Golf match against Sam Snead, a couple iron shots he came up off it after impact and had that weird loopy finish that you'd see Tiger do post 2007 compared to his usual Hoganesque finish. He got away with them obviously as he hit every fairway and green but even he made swings that were off from his usual swing. 

 

Meanwhile, of all the shots that Moe hit in the Youtube video archives, I don't think I ever saw him swing any different or off. It was exactly the same every time. The footwork was the same, his knee movement was the same, the way he finished was the same, there was never a swing that was "off" when he was hitting his stock shot. And he's hit so many shots compared to Hogan on Youtube because of him doing clinics where he's hitting hundreds of balls per video.

 

Snead competed with Ben in the middle of his prime from 1946 to 1953 and still admitted that Moe was the best ball striker he ever saw, I think that settles the debate. 

How far did Moe hit it though?

[golferdude54]

3 minutes ago, Rapidcat said:

How far did Moe hit it though?

 

 

See for yourself, Moe in 1963 after Knudson which I tagged. Seems pretty fast to me. Most of the footage of Moe that people are used to watching were of him in his 60s and past that, when he was losing speed. But in his 20s and 30s and 40s, he kept up with everyone and was longer than Trevino.

[jmcm87]

Tiger 1997-2006

[grm24]

9 hours ago, jmcm87 said:

Tiger 1997-2006

Tigers ball striking was still pretty freaking great in 2007-2009.

 

43 total events played, 19 wins and 7 second place finishes. 35 total top 10's.

 

While overlooked by many what Tiger did in 2008 while injured was simply ridiculous. 7 events played, 5 wins (including a major) and a second place (Masters) finish. He slacked in his other event. 5th place finish.

[STalon89]

Snead or Hogan