Where does Europe go from here

[MUNIGRIT]

Its pretty simple. They need more talent.

[Blade Junkie]

2 hours ago, avrag said:

I agree completely with what you say, but I have to point out that Westwood wasn't picked, but qualified automatically.
Which leads to the three points of the qualification process Team Europe has to change in my view:
Get rid of the World points List.
Put a premium on recent form.
Put a premium on wins.
My rough ideas:

I would begin the qualification process with the WGC in China in the year before the Ryder Cup.
As a start, I would use the World Ranking points won in European Tour events (which of course include the Majors and the WGCs anyway).
Points won in pure US PGA Tour events count only when they are for wins.
Double points for victories, double points for the WGC Match Play. 

Double points after June 1st of the year of the Ryder Cup.

8 players qualify on these points, 4 players are picked, but to be in the pool of the possible picks, players need to have won on the European Tour or PGA Tour at least once in the Ryder Cup year or have a top ten in a major or a top 5 in a WGC. Only if there are not at least 4 players who meet these criteria, may the captain choose a pick freely.
This should ensure that we get more young and hungry players, who play mostly in Europe on one hand, players who know how to win, and give the established players a chance to still qualify, but only if they don't do it by amassing top 20 finishes on the PGA Tour, without ever winning. The American team used to consist of such "top 20" players for the longest time, and that's when Europe started to beat them regularly. And that time we had players, who came from the European Tour, which was also weaker at the time, but the cream rose to the top and these players made winning a habit. That's what we need to achieve for the future. 

 

If someone has a lot of time on their hands, it would be interesting to "retro-fit" your criteria and see what team Paddy should have taken to Whistling Straits. I bet it's almost the same LOL 🙂 

[Holy Moses]

15 minutes ago, MUNIGRIT said:

Its pretty simple. They need more talent.

Sergio and Rory need to make more babies apparently

[avrag]

19 minutes ago, Blade Junkie said:

 

If someone has a lot of time on their hands, it would be interesting to "retro-fit" your criteria and see what team Paddy should have taken to Whistling Straits. I bet it's almost the same LOL 🙂 

Could be, but I would be shocked. 😆

[avrag]

1 hour ago, Tpfol said:

I dont know if the disparity is normally this great but looking at the World Rankings

 

- US lowest ranked player- #21, Scottie Sheffler

- Average ranking amongst 12 US members, #9

-EUR lowest ranked player- #63, Weisberger

- Average ranking amongst 12 EUR members, #31

I have asked before and I'll ask again: Why is it so difficult to get the "i" and the "e" in the correct order in German names?
More common example would be "Speith". when it is actually "Spieth".
 

[Pepperturbo]

An argument suggests European players reached a level of complacency, similar to the older American players that just showed up for previous Cups.  They lost touch with the spirit that comes from representing one's country.

[avrag]

2 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

An argument suggests European players reached a level of complacency, similar to the older American players that just showed up for previous Cups.  They lost touch with the spirit that comes from representing one's country.

I agree with the first sentence, but not with the last.
But the biggest problem was the long qualification window, which meant that we had at least five players on the team who have not played anything like their best (at least not consistently) for at least half a year.

[Blade Junkie]

How about a biennial fixture in the same slot as the Presidents Cup so that Europe gets a bit more team match play practice ?

 

12 a-side ... GB & Ireland vs Continental Europe ...  🙂 

[Pepperturbo]

11 minutes ago, avrag said:

I agree with the first sentence, but not with the last.
But the biggest problem was the long qualification window, which meant that we had at least five players on the team who have not played anything like their best (at least not consistently) for at least half a year.

True - qualification process is/was a factor.  Still, behavior wise, the second sentence leads to the first.  We've seen and heard it with our past teams.  Payouts on the European tour has created greater success which tends to breed a more casual, at times unfocused, nature.  Note all the Euros living the grand life in the US to play the American tour. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[J_Tizzle]

I think at this point, everyone talked about how close all the Euros are and the US didn't have that, but now all these guys grew up playing golf together in jr golf and the environment seems to be slightly different on the tour with the younger guys (you see them waiting around to congratulate their friends on wins, etc.).  And if you're having fun and playing good golf, that makes you harder to beat.  Not saying the Euros didn't have that, but you combine that WITH the skills the US has always had, you get this.

 

Plus a side note, Patty Ice might now be one of my favorite golfers.

[oikos1]

Euros were too old, too short off of the tee and couldn't make putts as a team.  They were destroyed on the par 5's.  Youth won out.

[Tpfol]

33 minutes ago, avrag said:

I have asked before and I'll ask again: Why is it so difficult to get the "i" and the "e" in the correct order in German names?
More common example would be "Speith". when it is actually "Spieth".
 

Sorry Karen, perhaps you should call the manager?

[tiderider]

 

[avrag]

39 minutes ago, Tpfol said:

Sorry Karen, perhaps you should call the manager?

Perhaps people who write things in public should learn spelling.
Or at least correctly reproducing what they have read hundreds of times.

[Tpfol]

5 hours ago, avrag said:

Perhaps people who write things in public should learn spelling.
Or at least correctly reproducing what they have read hundreds of times.

Ok, when I have read Weisberger's name hundreds of times, I'll work on that.

 

[bscinstnct]

7 hours ago, oikos1 said:

Euros were too old, too short off of the tee and couldn't make putts as a team.  They were destroyed on the par 5's.  Youth won out.

 

 

[bscinstnct]

6 hours ago, tiderider said:

 

 

 

[iBanesto]

It is easy to say Harrington could have chosen his picks more wisely given the outcome of their respective results.

 

But who would you replace them with?

• Perez - no form since the WGC Matchplay
• McIntyre - 4 missed cuts since the Open
• Migliozzi - average results since the US Open
• Rose - form has been touch and go in 2021
• Detry - no results since the Scottish Open
• Noren - a better result at the BMW PGA could have given him a chance as he found some form late

Either way, Europe was going to lose this Ryder Cup.

Edited September 28, 2021 by iBanesto

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

On 9/27/2021 at 12:36 AM, wannabepar said:

Watching those two together this year, I started calling them the second Spanish Armada. They were truly magic together.

 

From what I remember the Spanish Armada got decimated in combat and then lost most of their galleons in shipwrecks while trying to flee...but what do I know apart from reading books.

 

[Hankshank]

Looks like young guys with the right genes choses golf for a living in USA more often than in Europe nowadays. Maybe as simple as that? Fewer soccer moms in Europe? And harscher parental CS,LoL, GTA restrictions?

[MattyO1984]

17 hours ago, Blade Junkie said:

How about a biennial fixture in the same slot as the Presidents Cup so that Europe gets a bit more team match play practice ?

 

12 a-side ... GB & Ireland vs Continental Europe ...  🙂 

 

It does seem strange that the Seve Trophy and the EurAsia Cup were just left to go by the wayside without much if any fuss. I get that they were pretty low impact when it came to interest but it definitely seemed like the extra run through’s that it gave to the players and captain it might be worthwhile looking into them again.

[Blade Junkie]

1 hour ago, MattyO1984 said:

 

It does seem strange that the Seve Trophy and the EurAsia Cup were just left to go by the wayside without much if any fuss. I get that they were pretty low impact when it came to interest but it definitely seemed like the extra run through’s that it gave to the players and captain it might be worthwhile looking into them again.

 

Sometimes in life, and golf, you don't see the value of something until after it has been taken away ... and sometimes it is a delayed impact 🙂 

 

Just looking at the last year it was held (2013), these were the line ups :

 

 

You can see that a lot of the top players chose not to participate, but all that did was give an opportunity and valuable experience to several players lower down the rankings who would go on to represent Europe in the Ryder Cup. Tommy Fleetwood involved despite a world ranking of 154 for example ... 

 

I can't help feel that if some of our younger players had the opportunity to play in something like this, that it could only help in them developing as match play golfers, and better golfers as well.

[Mcgeeno]

Such a crazy and exciting transition for the US team coming in my opinion.

 

Rose, Garcia,Molinari, Poulter, Stenson, Westwood all stalwarts for years and years are now older and moving aside leaving a huge talent gap that will have to take on an absolutely stacked American squad.

[Tpfol]

I would wait and see how 2023 goes before writing off the Euros completely. Winning at home is the expectation, winning away from home is what truly declares the Ryder cup champion. If the USA wins "over there" it would be the first time in 30 years they would have done so.

That said, I also wonder how covid impacted the Euros morso than USA since weekly travel for PGA tour is all domestic where in Europe travel was a bit more tricky with inter-country travel restrictions. Sure, the top guys dont have as much issue but that second tier may have had more of a struggle

[Hankshank]

5 minutes ago, Tpfol said:

I would wait and see how 2023 goes before writing off the Euros completely. Winning at home is the expectation, winning away from home is what truly declares the Ryder cup champion. If the USA wins "over there" it would be the first time in 30 years they would have done so.

That said, I also wonder how covid impacted the Euros morso than USA since weekly travel for PGA tour is all domestic where in Europe travel was a bit more tricky with inter-country travel restrictions. Sure, the top guys dont have as much issue but that second tier may have had more of a struggle

It's more than that. There hasn't been new young Euro top players coming out on the tours anything the like the numbers that has from the US. Can't say that I know the reasons for that, but Europe has not in any way been a stable place last decade or so. 

[avrag]

12 hours ago, iBanesto said:

It is easy to say Harrington could have chosen his picks more wisely given the outcome of their respective results.

 

But who would you replace them with?

• Perez - no form since the WGC Matchplay
• McIntyre - 4 missed cuts since the Open
• Migliozzi - average results since the US Open
• Rose - form has been touch and go in 2021
• Detry - no results since the Scottish Open
• Noren - a better result at the BMW PGA could have given him a chance as he found some form late

Either way, Europe was going to lose this Ryder Cup.

I also do not see a problem with the picks. I see the problem that too many players had automatically qualified on points they had won more than half a year ago and were completely out of form, when the Ryder Cup came around.

[MattyO1984]

23 minutes ago, Blade Junkie said:

 

Sometimes in life, and golf, you don't see the value of something until after it has been taken away ... and sometimes it is a delayed impact 🙂 

 

Just looking at the last year it was held (2013), these were the line ups :

 

 

You can see that a lot of the top players chose not to participate, but all that did was give an opportunity and valuable experience to several players lower down the rankings who would go on to represent Europe in the Ryder Cup. Tommy Fleetwood involved despite a world ranking of 154 for example ... 

 

I can't help feel that if some of our younger players had the opportunity to play in something like this, that it could only help in them developing as match play golfers, and better golfers as well.

 

To be fair, the squad list for those teams is brutal but, as you say, the benefit of something like that it unlikely to be apparent until some time further down the line. Seeing the name Manassero on there just makes me think what could have been.

 

Unfortunately, there is a generation of what could have been’s for the European Team. Manassero obviously never played but when you think that the likes of Kaymer, Willett and Pieters were nowhere near making the team and guys like Matt Wallace have just not kicked on in the way that it seemed they might. We are OK for star names - Rahm, McIlroy but the guys behind them are just not on the same level as their American peers.

[Tpfol]

15 minutes ago, Hankshank said:

It's more than that. There hasn't been new young Euro top players coming out on the tours anything the like the numbers that has from the US. Can't say that I know the reasons for that, but Europe has not in any way been a stable place last decade or so. 

That was my point in regards to covid. The younger player, the fringe top 20 guy? I dont know how much they were held back by travel, it surely was more difficult than here in the states. 

I wouldnt discard Rahm, McIlroy, Hatton, Fitzpatrick & Hovland becoming and staying as"top" players and 2 years is plenty of time for "up and comers" like MacIntyre & those Danish twins (I'd try and spell their names but might get criticized if not spelled correct). If Olesen gets his head on straight, he was quite a riser himself

Edited September 28, 2021 by Tpfol

[2011l6]

I wouldn’t put faith in players like Hatton, & Fitzpatrick for the future Ryder Cup.  The whole universe acknowledged huge talent gap between US vs European.  It will stay this way for next 10 to 15 years.

[Mcgeeno]

The Hojgaard brothers, Matt Fitzpatrick's younger brother Alex and hopefully Migliozzi for the 2023 cup would add some fresh and exciting new blood.

 

Ludvig Aberg being as good as his hype would help a ton too. I think he's among the top ranked amateurs on the planet. Maybe he has a quick rise to prominence...