Irons; the start of the backswing and line to take

[MarcA]

I've been getting a few lessons from a local pro and have since been hitting the ball with a slight fade, previously always hitting a draw in my 30 years of playing. In fact hitting a fade/slice was something I could never do.

 

The thing that has puzzled me following my lessons is the line I should follow when taking my iron head away from the ball on the initial part of the backswing.

 

To give a little history, I was previously in a bad habit of breaking my wrists on the initial movement away from the ball. I think this is something which crept up on me over time and got gradually worse so I was pulling everything left. To correct this, the pro had me swinging straight back over a tee peg that was several foot behind the ball (if the ball is the middle of a clock then going back over 3 on the clock face). This has given me what I feel is a more out to in swing and I not hit a slight fade on most shots. My irons aren't too bad as it's mostly very controlled but I'm hitting some wicked slices with my driver as I am struggling to hold the line on the downswing and looping round over the top. I now find it impossible to hit a draw with an iron or driver.

 

Hopefully that makes sense!

 

What are peoples thoughts on this? Should I continue with going back over what feels like 3 o'clock or should I look at changing this? I'm tempted to try another pro but don't want too many people tinkering with my swing and haven't got the money to keep throwing at it...

 

Thanks

 

[Nickc]

Well you could look at Monte's No Turn Cast video (suggest the bought one) for the take away bit- from what I understand works to get you in the right position at the top of the back swing.

(Note personally although recently bought this haven't used that part as quite content with my back swing ...fool that I am!).

[glk]

Sounds like you may be working the arms away from the body in the takeaway - typically leads to insufficient hand depth and an out to in path.

 

can’t say fir certain without dtl video.

 

Good drill to get arms and pivot working together.   
https://www.instagram.com/p/CArLoP8llFa/

 

 lesson on hand path and how lead arm/shoulder really works - Given a good setup with hips centered over ankles, and forward bend causing hands to hang just out past the toes.  

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CGqCDO0ixqL/

 

in short pivot affects how hand path works, setup affects how hand path works.    Out of synch hands/arms and pivot leads to downstream issues.

 

 

[MarcA]

Thank you both. I will look at these.

[RichieHunt]

I'll start with the preamble that there's lots of way to do it.

 

My preference is that the upper torso and shoulders start to turn (the hips have little turn in the takeaway).  The club head and hands essentially go straight back.  As you turn, the hands and the club head will want to work inside, but you need to get extensor action.  That extensor action will keep the hands and clubhead moving more straight back in the takeaway.

 

The real tricky part is to get that extensor action without actually making the trail arm straighter. 

 

 

 

 

RH

Edited September 29, 2021 by RichieHunt

[TwistedSister]

If you are paying someone for lessons why are you here asking for advice.  After all he is a pro and these people here are not.  He is watching you swing the club and those here have noteven seen a video?

[golfarb1]

The Mickey Wright TEE DRILL

Mickey Wright was considered to have the finest swing of any player in modern times.

One of her takeaway drills was to place a tee ( high enough for a fairway wood) about one foot DIRECTLY behind the ball and knock the tee over in her takeaway. 
It sounds like you are doing a similar  drill except a couple of feet  behind the ball is far too much 

[MarcA]

8 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

The Mickey Wright TEE DRILL

Mickey Wright was considered to have the finest swing of any player in modern times.

One of her takeaway drills was to place a tee ( high enough for a fairway wood) about one foot DIRECTLY behind the ball and knock the tee over in her takeaway. 
It sounds like you are doing a similar  drill except a couple of feet  behind the ball is far too much 

That's the one! Brilliant, thank you so much!

 

I searched for it but couldn't find anyone using this technique. I think I know where I'm going wrong so time to watch some videos and hit the practice area later today.

[TheDeanAbides]

Honestly, unless you were breaking your wrists and rolling the club deeply inside on the takeaway this idea of taking the clubhead over the tee a few feet behind you is a bad idea. It almost always leads to disconnection.

 

Breaking the wrists straight off the ball is absolutely fine (I do it) if the wrists are breaking correctly. It's far easier to make an efficient backswing if your wrists are fully cocked at left arm parallel, and it's hard to get there unless your wrists break quickly. 

[golfarb1]

4 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Honestly, unless you were breaking your wrists and rolling the club deeply inside on the takeaway this idea of taking the clubhead over the tee a few feet behind you is a bad idea. It almost always leads to disconnection.

 

Breaking the wrists straight off the ball is absolutely fine (I do it) if the wrists are breaking correctly. It's far easier to make an efficient backswing if your wrists are fully cocked at left arm parallel, and it's hard to get there unless your wrists break quickly. 

Ms Wright had a very late wrist set, while Dustin Johnson has a very early wrist set. Most pros are somewhere in between with about 1/2 setting their wrists completely by 9:00. 

To prevent any disconnection , cut an old credit card in half and place it deep inside your left armpit.Do not drop this credit  card going back. This will give a similar feeling to  Jimmy Ballards “Connection” swing aid , but the small amount of connection will prevent problems  compared to  using  a towel or headcover. 
Combine this with Ms Wright tee drill . 

[TheDeanAbides]

26 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

Ms Wright had a very late wrist set, while Dustin Johnson has a very early wrist set. Most pros are somewhere in between with about 1/2 setting their wrists completely by 9:00. 

To prevent any disconnection , cut an old credit card in half and place it deep inside your left armpit.Do not drop this credit  card going back. This will give a similar feeling to  Jimmy Ballards “Connection” swing aid , but the small amount of connection will prevent problems  compared to  using  a towel or headcover. 
Combine this with Ms Wright tee drill . 

The late wrist set ala Wright and Sergio is much harder to time. I had a long in person convo with Dan Whittaker about this years ago where he said that he wished he'd never had that move in his swing because it's hard to time the float load - especially true for ams. One of the problems with it is that it encourages ams to go wide to narrow in search of lag, and that's killed many swings. 

 

Mickey Wright's swing is gorgeous, of course, but I wouldn't suggest that for anyone without her talent. 

 

 

[Krt22]

Sounds like the pro is trying to get you to stop sucking it inside immediately, which in turn is getting you steeper/more vertical in the backswing, which is a foreign position for someone who has never played from there. Shallowing out the shaft from there is a completely different move compared to if you were always inside and under plane. You should go back to the instructor and ask what the next steps are. You should also video your swing so you at the very least can catalog the movement changes and make sure you are heading in the right direction

[MonteScheinblum]

26 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

The late wrist set ala Wright and Sergio is much harder to time. I had a long in person convo with Dan Whittaker about this years ago where he said that he wished he'd never had that move in his swing because it's hard to time the float load - especially true for ams. One of the problems with it is that it encourages ams to go wide to narrow in search of lag, and that's killed many swings. 

 

Mickey Wright's swing is gorgeous, of course, but I wouldn't suggest that for anyone without her talent. 

 

 

If you take away golfers who spent more than 30 hours a week at the course for more than 10 years, the number of people a float load has worked for is equal to the number of times I’ve slept with Jennifer Anniston. 

[MarcA]

Thanks everyone.

 

I hit the practice area and was striking the ball lovely but an ever so slight left to right. My left to right really comes into play on my hybrids and driver although I managed to hit quite a few straight with my hybrid. I was tinkering a bit so not sure if it was luck or me fixing the issue!

 

I've booked another lesson for the weekend so fingers crossed.

[PracticeSwinger]

18 hours ago, RichieHunt said:

I'll start with the preamble that there's lots of way to do it.

 

My preference is that the upper torso and shoulders start to turn (the hips have little turn in the takeaway).  The club head and hands essentially go straight back.  As you turn, the hands and the club head will want to work inside, but you need to get extensor action.  That extensor action will keep the hands and clubhead moving more straight back in the takeaway.

 

The real tricky part is to get that extensor action without actually making the trail arm straighter. 

 

 

 

 

RH

Very interesting... is that accomplished; takeaway with lead shoulder protraction and trail shoulder retraction (without any hips movement until P2)... as I find that this gets the clubhead and hands going straight back (and the clubhead 'outside' the hands from a DTL view); think JT preshot rehearsal... roughly 30* of shoulders/torso 'rotation' and very minimal hip movement by P2... finding it very consistent and repeatable 

[Krt22]

1 hour ago, MarcA said:

Thanks everyone.

 

I hit the practice area and was striking the ball lovely but an ever so slight left to right. My left to right really comes into play on my hybrids and driver although I managed to hit quite a few straight with my hybrid. I was tinkering a bit so not sure if it was luck or me fixing the issue!

 

I've booked another lesson for the weekend so fingers crossed.

Longer clubs (especially driver) are harder to make move right to left, due to how ball position/angle of attack shift path more left. Plenty of good players (including pros) will play a fade with driver and a draw with their shorter clubs.

[Pepperturbo]

20 hours ago, MarcA said:

The thing that has puzzled me following my lessons is the line I should follow when taking my iron head away from the ball on the initial part of the backswing.

If your mind still has you a bit confused about the change in flight path, sounds to me like, you're facing the same issue Tom Lehman did when he went from drawing the ball to fading.  He spent 2 years attempting to tackle the change, but finally went back to what he naturally did. 

 

IMO, when someone has a natural trajectory, they should stick with it.  Changing to a fade makes the ball listen more, but your mind plays tricks on your setup, making it an ongoing unsettling challenge.  Playing good golf is challenging enough, adding unnecessary challenges to the process is IMO not good.

[RichieHunt]

2 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

Very interesting... is that accomplished; takeaway with lead shoulder protraction and trail shoulder retraction (without any hips movement until P2)... as I find that this gets the clubhead and hands going straight back (and the clubhead 'outside' the hands from a DTL view); think JT preshot rehearsal... roughly 30* of shoulders/torso 'rotation' and very minimal hip movement by P2... finding it very consistent and repeatable 

 

Yes, lead shoulder blade protraction is involved.  I don't think the trail shoulder blade quite starts to retract in the takeaway, just yet.  

 

The big thing I found was that you have to keep a similar relationship between the trail side and the lead side that you have at address.  

 

The trail side is underneath your lead side at address because the trail hand is lower on the grip than you lead hand.  You're basically sustaining that relationship.  There's just an illusion that it changes because your body turns and then naturally tilts because of the turn.

 

It's easy to tilt too early and lose that relationship and then everything is thrown out of whack.  You can't sustain the extensor action because your trail arm is too high above your lead arm and thus the trail elbow will overfold and you won't get the proper wrist action to create efficient levers.  This will shut off the pivot and create the illusion of getting lag, but in reality the golfer is just violently changing direction and the physics of the club are being altered for the worse.

 

 

 

 

RH

[MarcA]

1 hour ago, Krt22 said:

Longer clubs (especially driver) are harder to make move right to left, due to how ball position/angle of attack shift path more left. Plenty of good players (including pros) will play a fade with driver and a draw with their shorter clubs.

 

Interesting, thanks. I've never had a problem drawing (or hooking) the ball in the past so this is a whole new world. I do wonder if I am simply being too hard on myself.

 

[mudge]

7 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

The late wrist set ala Wright and Sergio is much harder to time. I had a long in person convo with Dan Whittaker about this years ago where he said that he wished he'd never had that move in his swing because it's hard to time the float load - especially true for ams. One of the problems with it is that it encourages ams to go wide to narrow in search of lag, and that's killed many swings. 

 

Mickey Wright's swing is gorgeous, of course, but I wouldn't suggest that for anyone without her talent. 

 

 

 

It's not hard to time up a swing with a late wrist set, and it doesn't necessarily lead to a float load or going wide to narrow 

[ShowMe]

I've been working on this same thing.  Have a tendency to take the club back too far to the inside on the backswing resulting in getting stuck on the downswing.  Blocks and flip-hooks being the result.

 

Then I remembered something from years ago about Jack Nicklaus saying to take the club head back low, slow, and straight for the first 12-18 inches (or at least I thought I remembered that, lol).  Tried that and it worked.  This sounds similar to what your teacher has told you.

Edited September 30, 2021 by ShowMe

[MarcA]

18 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

If your mind still has you a bit confused about the change in flight path, sounds to me like, you're facing the same issue Tom Lehman did when he went from drawing the ball to fading.  He spent 2 years attempting to tackle the change, but finally went back to what he naturally did. 

 

IMO, when someone has a natural trajectory, they should stick with it.  Changing to a fade makes the ball listen more, but your mind plays tricks on your setup, making it an ongoing unsettling challenge.  Playing good golf is challenging enough, adding unnecessary challenges to the process is IMO not good.

 

I typed a reply out yesterday but couldn't reply as I had hit my limit of 7 messages 🙂

 

I had never realised this about Tom Lehman and did some reading - it proved very interesting! Obviously I'm nowhere near his level but I see why he struggled.

 

I don't want to tempt fate but think that I have pretty much cracked 5 iron to wedge, anything bigger is a lottery! It either goes straight or has a massive slice. And this is where the mental block is and it's constantly on my mind. I know a lot of it is in my head because it tends to be on the same holes so am not sure whether or not I'm simply steering the ball/not finishing my swing properly as I'm expecting to do it. I play off 9 but am currently 5 or 6 worse than that but there are a lot of positives:

 - more pars

 - creating more birdie chances

 - on the whole, I spray it a lot less.

 

The downside is the 4 or 5 holes where I'm walking off with a double bogey, or worse, as a result of one wild shot. And that is killing me. The weekend being a prime example where on the back 9 I was going decent until I went double bogey, birdie, double bogey, double bogey...all through one mistake on each hole from the tee box. 

 

I've got the winter to work on it so will see how it goes. I will definitely look at going back to my old way of swinging if I can't crack it.

[MarcA]

13 hours ago, ShowMe said:

I've been working on this same thing.  Have a tendency to take the club back too far to the inside on the backswing resulting in getting stuck on the downswing.  Blocks and flip-hooks being the result.

 

Then I remembered something from years ago about Jack Nicklaus saying to take the club head back low, slow, and straight for the first 12-18 inches (or at least I thought I remembered that, lol).  Tried that and it worked.  This sounds similar to what your teacher has told you.

 

I'm pleased it's not just me going through this! 🙂 

[Pepperturbo]

2 hours ago, MarcA said:

I don't want to tempt fate but think that I have pretty much cracked 5 iron to wedge, anything bigger is a lottery! It either goes straight or has a massive slice. And this is where the mental block is and it's constantly on my mind. I know a lot of it is in my head because it tends to be on the same holes so am not sure whether or not I'm simply steering the ball/not finishing my swing properly as I'm expecting to do it. I play off 9 but am currently 5 or 6 worse than that but there are a lot of positives:

I hope time proves you right about 5i-wedge.  🙂  Those irons tend to be the easiest of the set.  Probably why 5 & 6 iron are typically demo irons.  If a person can control those, shorter irons are much easier.  Four "4" iron and longer demand more technique and power in the swing to elevate the ball.  Probably why most people today bother to tackle them.  

 

Certain holes that demand specific shots or face trouble, can mess with a person.  A longtime buddy has that problem on a few holes playing a certain challenging course we frequent.  On those holes he makes the same mistakes, every time.  I attribute it to him not really wanting to improve.  He fears the thought of having to live up to being a better golfer, and doesn't like the thought of reaching a low index then falling backwards, as if failure.   Lots of people don't understand, we must fail to build the foundation for success. 

 

I've watched guys freeze up in matches, and when that happens, following holes are often affected, which runs up the frustration.  To prevent your mind from steering the ball, once the shot plan is decided, play the shot with a blank mind.  Too many people overthink golf, so scoring follows overthinking out the window. 

 

I hit the ball relatively straight and work the ball both directions.  No matter which direction I want to hit the ball, I take the clubhead back straight for "x" number of inches (never measured) before adjusting the rest of my swing mechanics to accommodate desired trajectory.  I normally start with an open face, and how I move through the ball determines flight path.  Stay patient... and good luck with your change.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[Wardonation]

16 hours ago, ShowMe said:

I've been working on this same thing.  Have a tendency to take the club back too far to the inside on the backswing resulting in getting stuck on the downswing.  Blocks and flip-hooks being the result.

 

Then I remembered something from years ago about Jack Nicklaus saying to take the club head back low, slow, and straight for the first 12-18 inches (or at least I thought I remembered that, lol).  Tried that and it worked.  This sounds similar to what your teacher has told you.

Same misses same issue. I actually feel like the first 12 inches is a touch outside. If I start missing with blocks and hooks this is my first go to fix. It is importnat NOT to pick it though when a touch outside. If I want to really hook one I will do this though

[MarcA]

A small update after my lesson this morning. Hopefully my terminology is correct!

 

A few of you had already predicted what I was doing 🙂 

 

I was swinging away from my body and not coming down correctly, coming over the top slightly. The angle of my divots were the giveaway as they were all pointing left.

 

The pro has changed my swing so I'm swinging back more on the inside but need to work on coming back down on the correct line. I'm now hooking it as I'm still coming over the top slightly although my divots are now far better. I need to feel like I'm pulling the club back down on the inside with a high finish rather than coming round myself. This is proving quite tricky to crack but it's early days! I'm going to work on it so hopefully I will improve with some time on the practice area and playing a few holes across the week.

 

My biggest worry is that I fall back into a bad habit I had a few years back of swinging back too much on the inside rather than the nice big arc I was practicing this morning.

 

Hopefully that all makes sense! 🙂 

[TheDeanAbides]

45 minutes ago, MarcA said:

A small update after my lesson this morning. Hopefully my terminology is correct!

 

A few of you had already predicted what I was doing 🙂 

 

I was swinging away from my body and not coming down correctly, coming over the top slightly. The angle of my divots were the giveaway as they were all pointing left.

 

The pro has changed my swing so I'm swinging back more on the inside but need to work on coming back down on the correct line. I'm now hooking it as I'm still coming over the top slightly although my divots are now far better. I need to feel like I'm pulling the club back down on the inside with a high finish rather than coming round myself. This is proving quite tricky to crack but it's early days! I'm going to work on it so hopefully I will improve with some time on the practice area and playing a few holes across the week.

 

My biggest worry is that I fall back into a bad habit I had a few years back of swinging back too much on the inside rather than the nice big arc I was practicing this morning.

 

Hopefully that all makes sense! 🙂 

What exactly do you mean by the highlighted bit?

[MarcA]

1 hour ago, TheDeanAbides said:

What exactly do you mean by the highlighted bit?

 

Hopefully I can explain it right.

 

I've got into a bad habit of looping my swing. I swing back and loop it round on the outside by a tiny fraction. It's stopping that.

[TheDeanAbides]

27 minutes ago, MarcA said:

 

Hopefully I can explain it right.

 

I've got into a bad habit of looping my swing. I swing back and loop it round on the outside by a tiny fraction. It's stopping that.

Like this? 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE8JvXR_MeY

[bladehunter]

Edit.  Sorry. Saw the update after.  Looks like your teacher has you covered. 

 

Edited October 3, 2021 by bladehunter