Cost of Being A Tour Player

[BNGL]

41 minutes ago, RichieHunt said:

 

I honestly don't know of any swing coach that works solely on a percentage.  Standard for top name swing coaches is $50K/year but they are basically on retainer. and have to show up almost wherever the player wants them.  Lesser name coaches will go for $20K-$25K and may get their travel expenses paid for.  If there's a % type deal going on, it's probably an incentive like 1% of earnings on a victory and additional money for making it to East Lake or the Masters, etc.

 

I think the salary concept for caddies started with Furyk and Fluff.  I have had some people tell me that it wasn't really anything different than what the normal caddies get (guarantee + tips) and it was basically a written contract instead of a handshake agreement.  Not sure how accurate that is, but I wouldn't doubt it.  Nothing more would bum a caddie out than missing out on $$$ because they've agreed to a set deal when they could have made much more on the typical 5/7/10 structure.

 

But most caddies out there are on the 5/7/10 deal.  If you're not a full time caddy and are just picking up a loop, it's usually $250/round + tip.  

 

That's where Kuchar got into trouble with his win at Mayakoba.  His caddie wasn't a full time Tour caddie and I think the Mayakoba caddies would get $100+ tip per round.  Kuchar offered him $2K for the week (essentially $500/round) for a non-full time caddie and thought he was doing him a favor because if Kuchar had missed the cut, the caddie would have made far more money than even other part-time caddies would make.

 

Then Kuchar won and IMO, didn't see the big picture and how that hurt the image of his brand and should have just paid out the normal 10% tip and come away with over $1 million and another Tour victory and all of the ancillary money that comes along with it.

 

 

 

 

RH

Didn’t see the big picture? They had an agreement. As far as we know there was an agreement and he settled up his end, regardless of what society might say. 

[Creedo77]

6 minutes ago, BNGL said:

Didn’t see the big picture? They had an agreement. As far as we know there was an agreement and he settled up his end, regardless of what society might say. 

John wood (kuchars old caddie) on a NLU podcast was asked about this whole incident and was pretty open with what exactly was said and went down. 

[BNGL]

1 minute ago, Creedo77 said:

John wood (kuchars old caddie) on a NLU podcast was asked about this whole incident and was pretty open with what exactly was said and went down. 

For those that aren’t as plugged with NLU (what even is that by the way). Cliff notes? 

[golfortennis]

3 minutes ago, BNGL said:

For those that aren’t as plugged with NLU (what even is that by the way). Cliff notes? 

 

No Laying Up.

[BNGL]

Just now, golfortennis said:

 

No Laying Up.

To be quite frank, seen NLU lots of times never put that together nor heard one of their shows.

[golfortennis]

55 minutes ago, RichieHunt said:

 

I honestly don't know of any swing coach that works solely on a percentage.  Standard for top name swing coaches is $50K/year but they are basically on retainer. and have to show up almost wherever the player wants them.  Lesser name coaches will go for $20K-$25K and may get their travel expenses paid for.  If there's a % type deal going on, it's probably an incentive like 1% of earnings on a victory and additional money for making it to East Lake or the Masters, etc.

 

I think the salary concept for caddies started with Furyk and Fluff.  I have had some people tell me that it wasn't really anything different than what the normal caddies get (guarantee + tips) and it was basically a written contract instead of a handshake agreement.  Not sure how accurate that is, but I wouldn't doubt it.  Nothing more would bum a caddie out than missing out on $$$ because they've agreed to a set deal when they could have made much more on the typical 5/7/10 structure.

 

But most caddies out there are on the 5/7/10 deal.  If you're not a full time caddy and are just picking up a loop, it's usually $250/round + tip.  

 

That's where Kuchar got into trouble with his win at Mayakoba.  His caddie wasn't a full time Tour caddie and I think the Mayakoba caddies would get $100+ tip per round.  Kuchar offered him $2K for the week (essentially $500/round) for a non-full time caddie and thought he was doing him a favor because if Kuchar had missed the cut, the caddie would have made far more money than even other part-time caddies would make.

 

Then Kuchar won and IMO, didn't see the big picture and how that hurt the image of his brand and should have just paid out the normal 10% tip and come away with over $1 million and another Tour victory and all of the ancillary money that comes along with it.

 

 

 

 

RH

 

I guess the top names work with a few players, and those players are all at the same events typically, cause it would seem $50k is a little low to be basically on call.  To me anyway.  But if you are working with 3-4 people at the same time it can work better.  Maybe you're about incentives above that.  You are more wired in than I am, so I will defer.  Just going by things I read.

 

Yeah Kuchar wouldn't have even had to do the full 10% frankly.  Just a decent tip and I think we never hear about it.  Yes there was an agreement, so I don't fault him, necessarily, but as you say, his image took a hit it wouldn't have had he thrown a little something out there.  

 

 

 

[Creedo77]

4 minutes ago, BNGL said:

To be quite frank, seen NLU lots of times never put that together nor heard one of their shows.

Their podcasts are pretty good. The Steve Elkington one from about 2 years ago is a good one. 

[Creedo77]

1 minute ago, golfortennis said:

 

I guess the top names work with a few players, and those players are all at the same events typically, cause it would seem $50k is a little low to be basically on call.  To me anyway.  But if you are working with 3-4 people at the same time it can work better.  Maybe you're about incentives above that.  You are more wired in than I am, so I will defer.  Just going by things I read.

 

Yeah Kuchar wouldn't have even had to do the full 10% frankly.  Just a decent tip and I think we never hear about it.  Yes there was an agreement, so I don't fault him, necessarily, but as you say, his image took a hit it wouldn't have had he thrown a little something out there.  

 

 

 

Here’s a follow up article about it (after everything went down)

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/golf.com/news/features/matt-kuchar-caddie-payment-dispute-el-tucan/

[golfortennis]

6 minutes ago, BNGL said:

To be quite frank, seen NLU lots of times never put that together nor heard one of their shows.

 

Yeah, you get some mixed opinions on them.  They certainly aren't traditional in their views on golf, so they don't exactly skew towards the older crowd.  But they do have their moments as well.  I particularly enjoyed their discussion of the Reed incident in San Diego this year.  They do get some good guests as well.

 

I don't listen to them religiously, but if there was a hot topic or something the prior week, I like hearing their opinions, even if I don't agree.  They do a decent job of backing them up.

[golfortennis]

2 minutes ago, Creedo77 said:

Here’s a follow up article about it (after everything went down)

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/golf.com/news/features/matt-kuchar-caddie-payment-dispute-el-tucan/

 

But it kind of makes my point:  I don't recall the 1st prize, but say it was $2 million.  10% is $200,000.  Even a $50k tip basically right then and there, and I think we never hear about it.  Again, there was an agreement, but if he does that, Kuchar could have at least played the "we had agreed to $2k for the week as he was just filling in, but after winning I felt he earned extra so I tipped $50k/ I'm disappointed to hear going above and beyond our agreement wasn't enough" card.  Kuchar comes out smelling a lot better image wise.  Easy to say from my chair he should spend more money, and $50k is just a number chosen at random, but knowing how things are looked at, he could have put himself on the front foot image wise if the caddie decides to talk.

[Creedo77]

I can relate to the whole Kuchar incident. 
 

When I was still looping at my local Tpc we hosted an event in 2018. I was the only caddie there to get a bag for the week. I didn’t negotiate properly because I was just happy to do it nor did I want the player to have his wife do it which is what he was thinking at first. 
 

I asked what I could expect after a Tuesday practice round and was told $150 which is less than I’d make in a normal day out there. I was pretty green to talking %s and said player ended up making $43000 that week and gave me a check for $900. At the end of the day the networking I did was worth the extra $2000/$3000 I missed out on

Edited October 2, 2021 by Creedo77

[Creedo77]

1 minute ago, golfortennis said:

 

But it kind of makes my point:  I don't recall the 1st prize, but say it was $2 million.  10% is $200,000.  Even a $50k tip basically right then and there, and I think we never hear about it.  Again, there was an agreement, but if he does that, Kuchar could have at least played the "we had agreed to $2k for the week as he was just filling in, but after winning I felt he earned extra so I tipped $50k/ I'm disappointed to hear going above and beyond our agreement wasn't enough" card.  Kuchar comes out smelling a lot better image wise.  Easy to say from my chair he should spend more money, and $50k is just a number chosen at random, but knowing how things are looked at, he could have put himself on the front foot image wise if the caddie decides to talk.

For sure, I agree with what you’re saying. 50k for literally just carrying the bag is plenty for a local who by all means lives in an area where that kind of cash can go a long way. 

[golfortennis]

2 minutes ago, Creedo77 said:

I can relate to the whole Kuchar incident. 
 

When I was still looping at my local Tpc we host an event in 2018. I was the only caddie there to get a bag for the week. I didn’t negotiate properly because I was just happy to do it nor did I want the player have have his wife do it which is what he was thinking at first. 
 

I asked what I could expect after a Tuesday practice round and was told $150 which is less than I’d make in a normal day out there. I was pretty green to talking %s and said player ended up making $43000 that week and gave me a check for $900. At the end of the day the networking I did was worth the extra $2000/$3000 I missed out on

 

How did you get the bag?  Were you recommended by someone?  Sheer luck?  That is pretty good to be the only one getting a bag.

[golfortennis]

1 minute ago, Creedo77 said:

For sure, I agree with what you’re saying. 50k for literally just carrying the bag is plenty for a local who by all means lives in an area where that kind of cash can go a long way. 

 

The only thing I can think of, although he wouldn't have gone public later himself, is that kind of cash can also get you some notoriety there that you may not want.

[BNGL]

21 minutes ago, Creedo77 said:

Here’s a follow up article about it (after everything went down)

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/golf.com/news/features/matt-kuchar-caddie-payment-dispute-el-tucan/

Gotcha thank you. Again the whole crux of the issue for me is he paid what was agreed to. This whole rigmarole of social justice activism saying that’s not fair or not what I expected…it’s what was agreed too and in Matt’s defense he reportedly went above and beyond what was “agreed to” until a story breaks that says explicitly they agreed to an amount more than what was paid, regardless of what’s right according to other people, I will never ever see the point to the criticism he faced from fans and his peers and the Tour. 

Edited October 2, 2021 by BNGL
Clarity. I’m drinking heavily at a rooftop bar in downtown Orlando.

[BNGL]

15 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

Yeah, you get some mixed opinions on them.  They certainly aren't traditional in their views on golf, so they don't exactly skew towards the older crowd.  But they do have their moments as well.  I particularly enjoyed their discussion of the Reed incident in San Diego this year.  They do get some good guests as well.

 

I don't listen to them religiously, but if there was a hot topic or something the prior week, I like hearing their opinions, even if I don't agree.  They do a decent job of backing them up.

Gotcha I’ll definitely have to check them out, I ain’t that old… in my own mind at least. 

[76mpg]

On 10/1/2021 at 12:19 PM, MtlJeff said:

 

I really doubt most guys have private chefs.

 

 

 

I had a few beers at an airport bar after the Players waiting for a flight and randomly chatted with a guy sitting next to me who turned out to be a house chef for a handful of euro players that week. He said there were 4 of them that week sharing a house and he would ask each the night before what they wanted for dinner the next day, have clothes ready, etc and ran errands while they played golf during the day. IIRC he worked for a few of the guys on and off and would have a plan of cities to meet them at along their schedule. Seemed like a pretty good arrangement to split the lodging and meal cost across a few people each week and still get great service. He said for the most part the guys were cool, occasionally someone was on a bad streak and you just kind of avoided them after the round...lol.

[Creedo77]

5 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

How did you get the bag?  Were you recommended by someone?  Sheer luck?  That is pretty good to be the only one getting a bag.

The head pro had told our caddie master that the player needed a guy. There were 3 of us in the running and the other 2 knew I wanted to get out on the pro level on a permanent basis. So, they were good enough to let me have it for the week. 

[golfortennis]

2 minutes ago, Creedo77 said:

The head pro had told our caddie master that the player needed a guy. There were 3 of us in the running and the other 2 knew I wanted to get out on the pro level on a permanent basis. So, they were good enough to let me have it for the week. 

 

Wow.  That is..... I am shocked they were willing to give it up.  Beyond nice of them to do that.  That is fantastic though.  

[BNGL]

10 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

But it kind of makes my point:  I don't recall the 1st prize, but say it was $2 million.  10% is $200,000.  Even a $50k tip basically right then and there, and I think we never hear about it.  Again, there was an agreement, but if he does that, Kuchar could have at least played the "we had agreed to $2k for the week as he was just filling in, but after winning I felt he earned extra so I tipped $50k/ I'm disappointed to hear going above and beyond our agreement wasn't enough" card.  Kuchar comes out smelling a lot better image wise.  Easy to say from my chair he should spend more money, and $50k is just a number chosen at random, but knowing how things are looked at, he could have put himself on the front foot image wise if the caddie decides to talk.

Absolutely he could have,  it he went with what was agreed upon and then some. 
 

also apologies for derailing an otherwise gem of a topic. 

[golfortennis]

6 minutes ago, 76mpg said:

I had a few beers at an airport bar after the Players waiting for a flight and randomly chatted with a guy sitting next to me who turned out to be a house chef for a handful of euro players that week. He said there were 4 of them that week sharing a house and he would ask each the night before what they wanted for dinner the next day, have clothes ready, etc and ran errands while they played golf during the day. IIRC he worked for a few of the guys on and off and would have a plan of cities to meet them at along their schedule. Seemed like a pretty good arrangement to split the lodging and meal cost across a few people each week and still get great service. He said for the most part the guys were cool, occasionally someone was on a bad streak and you just kind of avoided them after the round...lol.

 

What do you mean have clothes ready?  A chef had an "other duties as assigned" clause?

[Shilgy]

On 10/1/2021 at 10:25 AM, Ironman_32 said:

Definitely inflated.

 

They do say after paying expenses/taxes, whatever a tour player makes with a finish they take home ~40%. 

 

Based on the article, take Lee Westwood, finished 30th on the  money list last year at ~$3.4M. If he pays his caddy a base fee of $2,500 per week (or $10,000 a month, or $120k a year if he pays every week) and 10% of all winnings ($340,000), Lee would have to play every week every week ($340,000 + $120,000 = $460,000) and pay his caddy a $40k year end bonus to hit $500K. Makes you think which caddy gets a million. 

 

Even private chef, they said $3k-$5k a week, $25k all in, even if its at the low end, do you only bring out a chef for 8 weeks a year. If you do, do you notice that you play better, if you do, why the chef every week, if you don't, why need the chef? Its not like the food the tour gives the players is old ham sandwiches and there are restaurants in every city. 

 

I feel this article just takes the highest that each player pays but made it seem like everyone pays that. For example, Patrick cantlay has back issues, probably pays his physio guy more than say a Max homa does. 

 

But also, being on the PGA tour is just a broader game of when guys make the NBA and have to support their extended family of like 25 people. I'm sure theres some range guy at a tourney that Rahm played in that worked 1 day and only got a tip of $30 and thinks Rahm is pretty cheap, but they have to take care of every volunteer tear, at every tourney on every day. It adds up. Yea they make a lot of money, but its always faster to spend it than earn it. 

You neglected more of the Westwood income than you mentioned. Yes, he was credited with $3.4m on the US tour….plus FedEx Cup money for finishing 50th there….plus whatever he won in the European Tour events he played in….plus Ping income….plus his “partners” as listed below…..keep in mind Justin Rose gets a reported $5m/year for his hat deal with Morgan Stanley.

 

https://www.leewestwood.golf/partner

[Shilgy]

14 minutes ago, BNGL said:

Gotcha thank you. Again the whole crux of the issue for me is he paid what was agreed to. This whole rigmarole of social justice activism saying that’s not fair or not what I expected…it’s what was agreed too and in Matt’s defense he reportedly went above and beyond what was “agreed to” until a story breaks that says explicitly they agreed to an amount more than what was paid, regardless of what’s right according to other people, I will never ever see the point to the criticism he faced from fans and his peers and the Tour. 

My “laughing” credit to your post is to you expecting clarity while drinking heavily.🤩 🍻

[Creedo77]

11 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

Wow.  That is..... I am shocked they were willing to give it up.  Beyond nice of them to do that.  That is fantastic though.  

I had to do some convincing but they’re good dudes and understood the opportunity it would be for me 

[BNGL]

6 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

My “laughing” credit to your post is to you expecting clarity while drinking heavily.🤩🍻

Come on out if you’re AC SKy bar, had dinner the. We both looked at ea h other and without a word we both knew… probably not making 9 am service tomorrow 

[golfinbrad]

The article is over inflated.  That said there are ambulance chasers and leaches at the highest level in all sports.  Sure there are benefits to having a personal chef, trainer, agent, coach, psychologist, etc, but what really is the rate on return?  Nothing else this article shows how much money the top golfer's are making.

[bobfoster]

$2MM or so is probably a decent average for maybe the top 25. A bit too much for the higher end of that range, too low (probably by a lot) for the very top people. There is (for instance) a huge difference between private jets and commercial first class (and even if NetJets sponsors you, its not like they just give you free flights, the cost is baked into the total compensation package). 

 

Private chef? Kind of absurd. Very few would likely have them. But the trainer and physio cost seems quite plausible. The top end of most pro sports have gotten extremely specialized - it isn't like the generic personal trainers at the local gym. The trainers that work with pro football players do very different things than the ones working with golfers or tennis players or soccer players. Each sport requires the body to be trained for that specific sport, and physical therapists that also understand it. Pro sportsmen make the big money they make based (in large part) on having their bodies tuned to their game. A bad trainer that doesn't optimize for the sport can actually be very damaging. 

 

Also think travel is underestimated. These guys don't travel alone ... they aren't exactly just travelling salesmen squeezing into coach seats and spending endless lonely nights at rural Hampton Inns. Some have whole crews (as most of the biggest actors and musicians do). Their caddies (I assume) don't pay for their own flights and room/board. Quite often at least spouses travel along, and for large tourneys - majors, RC, PC, FedEx finals & etc. - the whole family often (in fact, usually) comes. And these big retinues don't exactly fly budget airlines, nor (as someone here jokingly said) stay at the Super 8 and eat at the Waffle House. 

 

And the annual coaching costs seems quite in line too. The best usually have several they use off and on over a year. The swing coach is not the putting coach. If someone is making eight figures - counting winnings + sponsorships (both of which are dependent on maintaining the status of being one of the best golfers in the world) - a couple hundred thousand in coaching fees is almost a rounding error. 

 

Point is, there are something like 40 million golfers in the world. When you are in the top 25 or 30 out of 40MM, you are in very rarified air. It is expensive to get there. Expensive to stay there. And just as there are elite golfers, there are also elite trainers, coaches, caddies, (even agents) and other tertiary personnel facilitating those players. 

[Creedo77]

1 minute ago, bobfoster said:

$2MM or so is probably a decent average for maybe the top 25. A bit too much for the higher end of that range, too low (probably by a lot) for the very top people. There is (for instance) a huge difference between private jets and commercial first class (and even if NetJets sponsors you, its not like they just give you free flights, the cost is baked into the total compensation package). 

 

Private chef? Kind of absurd. Very few would likely have them. But the trainer and physio cost seems quite plausible. The top end of most pro sports have gotten extremely specialized - it isn't like the generic personal trainers at the local gym. The trainers that work with pro football players do very different things than the ones working with golfers or tennis players or soccer players. Each sport requires the body to be trained for that specific sport, and physical therapists that also understand it. Pro sportsmen make the big money they make based (in large part) on having their bodies tuned to their game. A bad trainer that doesn't optimize for the sport can actually be very damaging. 

 

Also think travel is underestimated. These guys don't travel alone ... they aren't exactly just travelling salesmen squeezing into coach seats and spending endless lonely nights at rural Hampton Inns. Some have whole crews (as most of the biggest actors and musicians do). Their caddies (I assume) don't pay for their own flights and room/board. Quite often at least spouses travel along, and for large tourneys - majors, RC, PC, FedEx finals & etc. - the whole family often (in fact, usually) comes. And these big retinues don't exactly fly budget airlines, nor (as someone here jokingly said) stay at the Super 8 and eat at the Waffle House. 

 

And the annual coaching costs seems quite in line too. The best usually have several they use off and on over a year. The swing coach is not the putting coach. If someone is making eight figures - counting winnings + sponsorships (both of which are dependent on maintaining the status of being one of the best golfers in the world) - a couple hundred thousand in coaching fees is almost a rounding error. 

 

Point is, there are something like 40 million golfers in the world. When you are in the top 25 or 30 out of 40MM, you are in very rarified air. It is expensive to get there. Expensive to stay there. And just as there are elite golfers, there are also elite trainers, coaches, caddies, (even agents) and other tertiary personnel facilitating those players. 

Caddies pay for everything on their own based off the salary their player pays them. That salary is meant to cover all their expenses for the week. 
 

 

[bobfoster]

4 minutes ago, Creedo77 said:

Caddies pay for everything on their own based off the salary their player pays them. That salary is meant to cover all their expenses for the week. 
 

 

Thx. I was wrong about that (didn't know). 

[Fairway14]

I doubt any player with current exempt Tour status is flying commercial. Every player of that status I expect is receiving $1 million or more for the year when combining the money received for hat logo, shirt logo, bag logo, equipment contract etc... For 5 or 6 to travel together (players plus  wives or caddies etc...) on a private jet such as NetJets it's about the same dollars as paying for seats on a commercial flight.