Tour players who cannot putt

[Krt22]

 

2 hours ago, Medson said:

Just rehearsing some old comments:

• There are only "great" and "extraordinary" putters on tour. So when we say, good or poor, it is in the context of highest professional tour in the world. 
• Ball striking is inherently consistent, and putting is inherently streaky. In general, if you are a "good" ball striker, you usually hit the ball well. However, if you are a "poor" putter, you'll catch hot streaks. For example, Collin Morikawa should have no business winning the Claret Jug, beating Louis Oosthuizen (no.1 in SG: putting) and Jordan Spieth who putted well. Yet, Collin putted lights out and won. 

I'm not sure you can say Collin has "no business winning". SG total is what wins the tournament, if you are an elite ball striker you just need putter to behave a little bit and end up winning a tournament (or a major). 

 

Conversely you can be #1 SG putting and never win if your ball striking has gaps, especially under pressure on Sunday, just like Louis Oosthuizen in 2021. Lots of seconds, lots of money, lots of ho hum final rounds with ball striking errors that he wasn't able to overcome with the flatstick.

[Dave230]

3 hours ago, JaNelson38 said:

Ball striking is still king on the PGA Tour level.

 

The average proximity to the hole from the fairway last year on Tour was something like 37 feet.  Which means the average Tour pro is putting for birdie from 37 feet on every hole if they reach the green in regulation.   That's an unbelievably hard level to achieve and maintain over the course of one tournament, let alone a season...which is why good ball striking always compensates for below average or poor putting.  GIR is still, bar-none, the best indicator of scoring ability on Tour.  You're not making birdies if you're not on the green in regulation.

 

Putting matters, and often helps determine who wins or who doesnt, but as stated previous, the best ball strikers from tee to green in general win way, way more than players who are just the best putters for the week.  Why?  Because they're putting for birdie from much closer range than the rest of the field.

So true but you hear that in every clubhouse across the country taken as fact that putting is all that matters. If one guy is putting for birdie and almost misses them all and another guy is putting for par and almost gets them all, then the guy who missed all the putts still has a better score.

 

"There are two things that won't last long in this world, and that's dogs chasing cars and pros putting for pars."

[JaNelson38]

8 minutes ago, Dave230 said:

So true but you hear that in every clubhouse across the country taken as fact that putting is all that matters. If one guy is putting for birdie and almost misses them all and another guy is putting for par and almost gets them all, then the guy who missed all the putts still has a better score.

 

"There are two things that won't last long in this world, and that's dogs chasing cars and pros putting for pars."

 

For us regular am's (not the professional WRX'ers lol), putting is probably more important than ball striking, for the simple fact that in many cases, amateurs have a hard enough time two-putting from 25 feet.  So it kinda clouds the judgment of what's important in the pro game.

 

[c7015]

3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

This is how I see it too.  It’s not that anyone on tour  is bad. But several are bad compared to their ballstriking level.  And then there’s the guy who’s is only really bad under the gun.  Adam Scott. Vijay , sometimes phil…, seems like they can be on a roll. Hitting monster drives. Sticking iron shots. And then they miss a 4 footer to hand it to the short knocker who’s making every putt.  

over time , there are more shots to be gained from approach and driving , 

 

many of the putts pros have to make are gimmies (meaning putting is not as important as the number of shots may dictate) 

 

See how many of the top guys are average to minus in strokes gained putting 

 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by c7015

[playit]

@c7015, what book is that?

[bladehunter]

44 minutes ago, c7015 said:

 

over time , there are more shots to be gained from approach and driving , 

 

many of the putts pros have to make are gimmies (meaning putting is not as important as the number of shots may dictate) 

 

See how many of the top guys are average to minus in strokes gained putting 

 

 

 

Right. But over that much time all you do is create better stats. There aren’t any 10 day tournaments.   Over a 4 day period.  You need the putter to be at least warm.  If not hot. 
 

I understand the argument.  And In  some long term way you’re correct.  But if a player doesn’t have at least +1 ish strokes gained putting for the event , He won’t win , pretty much ever.  Earn plenty of money. But he won’t win.  Meanwhile we see guys putting lights out that play from every bad place on a course off the tee.  The key there is to be plus approach and not out  off the course off the tee. Point is you can cover up allot of things and win. But negative on the green isn’t one of them except in extreme cases.  And generally that is the one thing that also controls momentum and mindset the most.  Give me a hot putter and I’ll figure out how to get it on the green . .  

Edited October 5, 2021 by bladehunter

[Medson]

18 minutes ago, playit said:

@c7015, what book is that?

"Every shot counts" by Mark Broadie. Basically, this is the book that introduced Stroke Gained stats. 

[Krt22]

52 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Right. But over that much time all you do is create better stats. There aren’t any 10 day tournaments.   Over a 4 day period.  You need the putter to be at least warm.  If not hot. 
 

I understand the argument.  And In  some long term way you’re correct.  But if a player doesn’t have at least +1 ish strokes gained putting for the event , He won’t win , pretty much ever.  Earn plenty of money. But he won’t win.  Meanwhile we see guys putting lights out that play from every bad place on a course off the tee.  The key there is to be plus approach and not out  off the course off the tee. Point is you can cover up allot of things and win. But negative on the green isn’t one of them except in extreme cases.  And generally that is the one thing that also controls momentum and mindset the most.  Give me a hot putter and I’ll figure out how to get it on the green . .  

You are correct tournaments are not 10 days, but consistently good ball striking puts you in position to win more often, such that when the putter does behave it gets you over the hump. Perhaps your bias towards the importance of putting is rooted in your own game vs looking at it more objectively. Im the opposite, I generally putt well all the time and my score variation is almost directly correlated to how well I drive the ball.

 

Sam Burns won last week losing 2 strokes to the field with the putter, but his ball striking alone gained him 15 (He was #1 off the tee and #2 approach to the green). There are simply more strokes to be gained (or lost) tee to green than there are on the putting green (on average).

 

https://www.pgatour.com/players/player.47504.sam-burns.html/scorecards/r054/2022

 

ick Watney came in second and was the opposite, #1 SG putting but average ball striking relative to the field. If you have negative tee to green stats even the hottest putter in the world isn't going to make up for it (at least to win). Vijay Singh was noted in Broadie's book for having a similar feat, basically ball striking his way to victory while losing strokes to the field with the putter.

 

I would say really great SG putting days are also just as much luck as they are skill, where as really hot ball striking is really just skill with the occasional good break.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CUp8ZYhlkkO/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Krt22

[playit]

krt22, interesting that you showed that putting video showing the randomness of how true (or actually untrue) a putt rolls. I long ago accepted that and didn't get flustered when well-struck putts didn't fall. I felt that if I had any edge, it was that, mentally, I bettered my opponents. Most of them got mad when they "got screwed" by the rub of the green. Over the past few days, I have been putting on an indoor/outdoor carpet that's been in my pool room for 50 years. It makes a very realistic putting surface. And there is a putt from one spot to another about 12 feet away and I'll be danged, it can't be made, lol. The ball just will not track the same two putts in a row putted on the same line! It's one of those putts that it seems it just won't go in!

[bladehunter]

11 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

You are correct tournaments are not 10 days, but consistently good ball striking puts you in position to win more often, such that when the putter does behave it gets you over the hump. Perhaps your bias towards the importance of putting is rooted in your own game vs looking at it more objectively. Im the opposite, I generally putt well all the time and my score variation is almost directly correlated to how well I drive the ball.

 

Sam Burns won last week losing 2 strokes to the field with the putter, but his ball striking alone gained him 15 (He was #1 off the tee and #2 approach to the green). There are simply more strokes to be gained (or lost) tee to green than there are on the putting green (on average).

 

https://www.pgatour.com/players/player.47504.sam-burns.html/scorecards/r054/2022

 

ick Watney came in second and was the opposite, #1 SG putting but average ball striking relative to the field. If you have negative tee to green stats even the hottest putter in the world isn't going to make up for it (at least to win). Vijay Singh was noted in Broadie's book for having a similar feat, basically ball striking his way to victory while losing strokes to the field with the putter.

 

I would say really great SG putting days are also just as much luck as they are skill, where as really hot ball striking is really just skill with the occasional good break.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CUp8ZYhlkkO/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

lol probably true.  It’s hard to not insert your own experience into opinions. 
 

But to me it seems pretty even on potential strokes to lose or gain no ?  Don’t we putt more then strike stilll ? Unless 1 putting often . Can’t be too lopsided either way. 

[Krt22]

8 minutes ago, playit said:

krt22, interesting that you showed that putting video showing the randomness of how true (or actually untrue) a putt rolls. I long ago accepted that and didn't get flustered when well-struck putts didn't fall. I felt that if I had any edge, it was that, mentally, I bettered my opponents. Most of them got mad when they "got screwed" by the rub of the green. Over the past few days, I have been putting on an indoor/outdoor carpet that's been in my pool room for 50 years. It makes a very realistic putting surface. And there is a putt from one spot to another about 12 feet away and I'll be danged, it can't be made, lol. The ball just will not track the same two putts in a row putted on the same line! It's one of those putts that it seems it just won't go in!

Have you ever missed a 4-5 footer on the course, raked it back and proceeded to miss it 2-3 more times before finally ramming it straight in with a ton of speed? Some times it really just is rub of the green, grain could be weird, cup can be on a impossible to see ridge, cup can be cut poorly so it's crowned a bit, etc etc. 

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, 3whacker said:

 

the other stat was back in his heyday TW looked at a par 72 like Muirfield and was thinking his par was 68....multiply that times 4 and thats already 12 under just to keep pace with him...

 

 

 

[BobMorris]

20 hours ago, playit said:

Has there been any pro that is a great ball-striker and a terrible putter? I don't mean that he's just a so-so putter for a pro, I mean he's really a crappy putter!

No.

[nsxguy]

 

We're rolling a ball that's not round with a putter that's not flat over a surface that's not smooth.

 

It's a minor miracle anything over 10 feet ever goes in.

[NevinW]

Orville Moody is the only person that comes to mind who was a great ball striker but a clearly a poor putter.  Then he went to the long putter and the senior tour and the rest is history.  

[Krt22]

11 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

lol probably true.  It’s hard to not insert your own experience into opinions. 
 

But to me it seems pretty even on potential strokes to lose or gain no ?  Don’t we putt more then strike stilll ? Unless 1 putting often . Can’t be too lopsided either way. 

Its really not equal if you look at the data. On average the spread between the top SG tee to green guy and the bottom guy is larger than the spread between the best and worst putters.  Even if you use SG total vs the field average for both categories, it's 1.76 (John Rahm) vs .76 (Loius). So on average Rham is gaining over 7 strokes on the field for a 4 day tournament (morikawa isnt far behind at 6 over a 4 day tournament). Where as Louis is only gaining 3 strokes. Multiple that by 20 events and your likely hood of winning goes up quite a bit. Morikawa already has 5 PGA tour victories and 2 majors despite being a sub average putter, Louis still only has 1 PGA tour win despite being a great putter.

 

Yes there are occasional times a guy's putter get's super hot and he pulls out a W, but there is is a reason why the top 10 SG tee to green guys have significantly higher winnings than the top 10 SG putting guys. 

[bladehunter]

5 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Its really not equal if you look at the data. On average the spread between the top SG tee to green guy and the bottom guy is larger than the spread between the best and worst putters.  Even if you use SG total vs the field average for both categories, it's 1.76 (John Rahm) vs .76 (Loius). So on average Rham is gaining over 7 strokes on the field for a 4 day tournament (morikawa isnt far behind at 6 over a 4 day tournament). Where as Louis is only gaining 3 strokes. Multiple that by 20 events and your likely hood of winning goes up quite a bit. Morikawa already has 5 PGA tour victories and 2 majors despite being a sub average putter, Louis still only has 1 PGA tour win despite being a great putter.

 

Yes there are occasional times a guy's putter get's super hot and he pulls out a W, but there is is a reason why the top 10 SG tee to green guys have significantly higher winnings than the top 10 SG putting guys. 

Maybe we just notice the poor putters more ?  I mean I look at Justin Thomas and think his putter is the holdup all the time.  He has hot days don’t get me wrong.  But like Rory. He always seems to be able to miss one big and kill any momentum he has.  
 

to me these are the poor putters. They’re still statistically viable. But there’s several guys you don’t want rolling the ball if your life depends on it. Vijay - Adam scott and Jordan around 4-5 feet.    
 

so yes. I see what you’re saying.  But I also think there are some guys who just don’t putt well situationally and that holds them back. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by bladehunter

[Krt22]

1 minute ago, bladehunter said:

Maybe we just notice the poor putters more ?  I mean I look at Justin Thomas and think his putter is the holdup all the time.  He has hot days don’t get me wrong.  But like Rory. He always seems to be able to miss one big and kill any momentum he has.  
 

to me these are the poor putters. They’re still statistically viable. But there’s several guys you don’t want rolling the ball if your life depends on it. Vijay - Adam scott and Jordan around 4-5 feet.    
 

so yes. I see what you’re saying.  But I also think there are some guys who just don’t putt well situationally and that holds them back. 

Perhaps, maybe because putting is the one place we can perhaps relate the most to pros? I have made plenty of 10-25 footers, but I have no chance of consisteny giving myself eagle puts like Rory can. So yeah, perhaps some bias there, but if you look at the data objectively it's pretty clear what is a bigger indicator for success on tour. 

 

There are also guys who are always in great position to win on Saturday and slap the ball around Sunday and come up short. Like Louis. The one place he could not hit the ball on 17 at the US open was into the PA and he put one there (when almost not one else did the entire day).  

[Krt22]

30 minutes ago, BobMorris said:

No.

Morkawa was pretty close in 2021. 2nd SG tee to green, 178th SG putting. 1 major, 1 WGC, 8 top tens. His SG approach is so damn good (only modern player to come remotely close to Tiger in his prime), he gets away with average length off the tee and relatively poor putting. He is an outlier for sure, but it's much better combo than being 178th tee to green and #1 in putting.

[Neo1]

8 hours ago, Dave230 said:

People are taking the title too literally, it's obvious it's implied "can't putt at anywhere near the same standard as their peers". If you're a professional at any sport, you can do every basic very well compared to the average person.

 

Some really good ball-strikers that would have won ever more with better putting: Rory McIlroy, Lee Westwood, Sergio Garcia, Adam Scott, Vijay Singh. Funnily enough Sergio always seems to be able to putt in the Ryder Cup.

 

yup this is clearly evident that Sergio didn't feel pressure in the Ryder Cup because it wasn't about him, it was about the team Winning or Losing...but those majors must've felt real lonely in his head

[erikro]

Lexi 

[LBB]

If someone asked me a question..."Can you putt?"

 

My answer would be yes.

 

Am I a better putter than any golfer that ever played a pro event?

 

The answer to that question would be no.

 

Therefore, all pro golfers must be able to putt.

[stinger_gc]

To me it's the question of would you rather putt like Kisner (top 40 putter on tour every year since 2016) and but also have his tee-to-green game (was 166th in SG approach this year and is one of the shortest hitters on tour) or Collin Morikawa's game (one of the best iron players on tour and 10 yards longer then Kiz) but a streaky putter (his bad weeks are awful). I'd rather have Collin Morikawa's tee-to-green game.

[3whacker]

3 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

Now you see why my handle is 3whacker

[Rapidcat]

22 hours ago, Ferguson said:

 

Phil McGleno 

Or Phillip McClelland O'Grady

[Ferguson]

9 hours ago, 3whacker said:

Now you see why my handle is 3whacker

 

 

You took calculus, too? 

 

 

[Fairway14]

16 hours ago, 3whacker said:

 

 

the other stat was back in his heyday TW looked at a par 72 like Muirfield and was thinking his par was 68....multiply that times 4 and thats already 12 under just to keep pace with him...was he that much better a putter or was it that he had tap in birdies on all the Par 5's that he didnt eagle...

 

 

More so than putting Tiger's incredible chipping-pitching-bunker play produced the par 5 birdies. 

[c7015]

14 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Maybe we just notice the poor putters more ?  I mean I look at Justin Thomas and think his putter is the holdup all the time.  He has hot days don’t get me wrong.  But like Rory. He always seems to be able to miss one big and kill any momentum he has.  
 

to me these are the poor putters. They’re still statistically viable. But there’s several guys you don’t want rolling the ball if your life depends on it. Vijay - Adam scott and Jordan around 4-5 feet.    
 

so yes. I see what you’re saying.  But I also think there are some guys who just don’t putt well situationally and that holds them back. 

 

For sure, but you would rather be that guy that seems like he struggles with putting because he is just so damn good at ball striking that he is putting himself in that 5-9 ft range where the chances of making the putt are like 50-77%  (sure maybe he should make more but if you keep giving yourself opportunities some are going to go in) 

 

Way better than the guy who's median leave is outside the 9ft range , so ya he has to have a positive strokes gained putting as he has to defy the odds to compete because only 40% of those are supposed to go in but there are just more strokes to be had in other places. 

 

Put another way here are guys who won based on putting out of their mind,  where the SGP outweighed their other strokes 

[manku]

I was a standard bearer at the US Amateur at Riviera a few years back...every kid could stripe the ball.

 

I asked numerous people...parents, coaches, scorers...what separated them.

 

They all said putting.

 

So I assume anyone on tour is already a great putter relative to all the other wanna be PGA professionals.

 

After all, nearly half your strokes are putts!

[Snarkesor]

Isn't the legend that Mac O'Grady would have been one of the best of his generation if he could only putt?