Tour players who cannot putt

[Shilgy]

On 10/7/2021 at 4:24 PM, playit said:

 

I assume that you mean that someone who is a great putter but not so good ball striker isn't respected like a great ball striker. If that is true, I go back to golf being two games, tee to green play and then putting. To me, putting is more along the line of the game of pool, there is nothing really athletic about it. Doesn't mean it's easy, lol. Far from it. Many of us know golfers who hit it all over the dang place but are great putters and it's a bit disheartening in competition when you face a great putter due to that. So, I guess there is that 'stain' that carries over to how people perceive pro golfers. Now, great putters on tour, they might not necessarily hit it all over the place (except Seve) but they might just hit it shorter.

 

This is a very interesting thread.

Pretty sure that really doesn’t exist on tour.  They cannot make up enough strokes on the greens to keep their card.  Look at Aaron Baddeley.  Year in year out one of the very best putters but has only finished top 125 twice in the last seven years.  
Relative to his peers his is a poor ball striker and putting just cannot make that up.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Shilgy
Spelling

[Loki]

I can't believe this thread is still going.

[mizuno player]

Billy Mayfair had the Worst stroke I've ever seen and Still won. 

[Fairway14]

Consider the following:

No Tour player consistently hits 18 greens.

No Tour player consistently makes putters longer than 10 feet.

 

If you understand the above than it is obvious that chipping-pitching-bunker play is what matters  most, because the best at these green side short game shots (for example Tiger Woods) consistently gets it up and down for par 5 birdies and par 4 or par 3 par saves.

Tiger consistently left his chips-pitches-bunker shots within 6 feet of the hole, while his competition left their balls 10 feet from the hole.

Most all Tour players make the short putts up to 6 feet, but no Tour player  consistently makes 10 foot or longer putts.

[elwhippy]

If you are on Tour you can putt. Yes the cameras will show players missing from 3 feet but that isn't the norm. Langer, Vijay and Westwood made world number one and were classed as bad putters....

[Ty_Webb]

9 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

Consider the following:

No Tour player consistently hits 18 greens.

No Tour player consistently makes putters longer than 10 feet.

 

If you understand the above than it is obvious that chipping-pitching-bunker play is what matters  most, because the best at these green side short game shots (for example Tiger Woods) consistently gets it up and down for par 5 birdies and par 4 or par 3 par saves.

Tiger consistently left his chips-pitches-bunker shots within 6 feet of the hole, while his competition left their balls 10 feet from the hole.

Most all Tour players make the short putts up to 6 feet, but no Tour player  consistently makes 10 foot or longer putts.

 

This is simply not true. Tiger hit around 75% of his greens at his best. That means he's hitting 4 or 5 + maybe 2 on par 5s chips. Maximum 7 short game shots a round - that's assuming he never has to hack out sideways. The worst short games on tour are probably getting up and down about 50% of the time. That means the most shots he could possibly make up is 3.5. Meanwhile, he's hitting 18 approach shots and 14 drives. Far more scope with those to gain/lose shots than there is with short game. Short game is I think the least important differentiator between different standards of players.

[Fairway14]

6 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

This is simply not true. Tiger hit around 75% of his greens at his best. That means he's hitting 4 or 5 + maybe 2 on par 5s chips. Maximum 7 short game shots a round -

 

Yes, 12 greens in regulation is probably near average for a Tour player. So every player is often chipping-pitching-playing from a greenside bunker. Among better players this area of the game separates the top finishers from the rest of the field.

Remember, no player consistently  hits 18 greens.

Remember, no player consistently makes long putts.

So, the only thing left to differentiate scoring is how close to the hole a player is able to leave his green side  chips-pitches-bunker shots. The "putting factor" is mostly about whether a player has left himself a 5 foot putt or a 10 foot putt.

[Strategery]

Glover, Westwood, Mayfair. Els now.

[Ty_Webb]

6 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Yes, 12 greens in regulation is probably near average for a Tour player. So every player is often chipping-pitching-playing from a greenside bunker. Among better players this area of the game separates the top finishers from the rest of the field.

Remember, no player consistently  hits 18 greens.

Remember, no player consistently makes long putts.

So, the only thing left to differentiate scoring is how close to the hole a player is able to leave his green side  chips-pitches-bunker shots. The "putting factor" is mostly about whether a player has left himself a 5 foot putt or a 10 foot putt.

How do you think it's possible to hit chips closer to the hole, but not approach shots? 

[Fairway14]

3 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

How do you think it's possible to hit chips closer to the hole, but not approach shots? 

 

A good ball striking day leaves a player with lots of 15 to 20  foot birdie putts, which is fine. But no player consistently makes long putts.

Inside 6 feet is where players consistently make putts, and balls so close to the hole come from green side chipping/pitching/bunker play shots.

The only place from which a player can realistically expect/hope to consistently leave the ball within 5 feet of the hole is from next to the greens (chipping/pitching/bunkers).

Sure the guy who hits 13 greens with an average length putt of 18 feet is better off than the guy who hits 13 greens with an average length putt of 28 feet, but neither player is going to consistently make many of those long putts. What really matters for scoring is whether for the 5 greens he missed, as well as the par 5 holes, he  gets his chips/pitches/bunkers shots next to the hole for a routine one putt green.

 

[Shilgy]

7 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Yes, 12 greens in regulation is probably near average for a Tour player. So every player is often chipping-pitching-playing from a greenside bunker. Among better players this area of the game separates the top finishers from the rest of the field.

Remember, no player consistently  hits 18 greens.

Remember, no player consistently makes long putts.

So, the only thing left to differentiate scoring is how close to the hole a player is able to leave his green side  chips-pitches-bunker shots. The "putting factor" is mostly about whether a player has left himself a 5 foot putt or a 10 foot putt.

While I appreciate your tenacity you are just plain incorrect.  Please look at the tours strokes gained around the green stats.   Bryon, Burns, Im, Berger, Hollander and Westwood had pretty good years and LOST strokes to their peers around the greens.

 

19 players gained more than a half shot per round last year on tee shots alone with the leader over 1.1 strokes per round gained.  Around the green a total of 2 guys gained over a half stroke per round with the leader at 0.7 .

[Valtiel]

14 hours ago, Shilgy said:

While I appreciate your tenacity you are just plain incorrect.  

[oikos1]

On 10/7/2021 at 2:10 PM, golfandfishing said:

If putting is the differentiator wouldn’t you say that he overachieved because of his ball striking?

And there in lies the essence of statistics.   

[J_Tizzle]

I remember playing in a Nationwide Pro Am many moons ago, and the pro we got paired with was no good, and we were just talking and he said "take the best putter you've ever seen and they'd be beyond the worst putter on tour, and thats the difference".  Kinda stuck with me

[TiScape]

3 hours ago, J_Tizzle said:

I remember playing in a Nationwide Pro Am many moons ago, and the pro we got paired with was no good, and we were just talking and he said "take the best putter you’ve ever seen and they’d be beyond the worst putter on tour, and thats the difference".  Kinda stuck with me

A little confused. Does this mean ‘take the best putter you’ve ever seen and they’d be way worse than the worst putter on tour’? “Beyond” makes me think above, as in better. 

[Justsomeguy]

Re Tiger, if I remember right, his standout stat was proximity to the hole w his irons for longer approaches. All the other stats were above average and his putting was always clutch, but proximity on approaches from 150-175 and 175-200 were tops his entire pre-injury prime.

[MUNIGRIT]

How was Mac O'Grady?

[J_Tizzle]

11 hours ago, TiScape said:

A little confused. Does this mean ‘take the best putter you’ve ever seen and they’d be way worse than the worst putter on tour’? “Beyond” makes me think above, as in better. 

 

Sorry that is worded oddly.

 

The best putter you know wouldn't be close to as good as the worst putter with a card I think is essentially what I/he meant.  

[Obee]

On 10/27/2021 at 2:34 PM, J_Tizzle said:

I remember playing in a Nationwide Pro Am many moons ago, and the pro we got paired with was no good, and we were just talking and he said "take the best putter you've ever seen and they'd be beyond the worst putter on tour, and thats the difference".  Kinda stuck with me

That great and everything, but it's just not true.

 

A guy I have played 200 rounds of golf with qualified for and made the cut in the US Senior Open in back to back years in 2017 and 2018. He is a lifelong amateur. He is as good a putter as those guys. He might not be the best putter on the Champions Tour, but he wouldn't even be close to the worst. He would probably be about middle of the pack. Or above.

 

That is just one guy that I know. There are others who roll it as good as he does -- and they are not all nationally-ranked seniors. 

 

Bottom line: He played with the very best 50+ year old professionals in the world and he held his own -- in his first ever US Senior Open.

 

If he was "beyond the worst putter out there," he would not have been able to have made the cut two years in a row.

 

Putting is much like free-throw shooting: One does not need to be world class at the rest of the game of basketball to be a 75%+ free-throw shooter.

 

 

[munichop]

George Archer was asked after he won the masters if he was the best putter in the world because of his prowess that week at Augusta. He said he was only the 3rd best at his club.

I agree putting is similar to free throw shooting in many ways. You develop a technique and ritual thru practice so you can repeat it under pressure but there is more to being a top basketball player than free throws just like there is more to golf than great putting.

[J_Tizzle]

8 hours ago, munichop said:

George Archer was asked after he won the masters if he was the best putter in the world because of his prowess that week at Augusta. He said he was only the 3rd best at his club.

I agree putting is similar to free throw shooting in many ways. You develop a technique and ritual thru practice so you can repeat it under pressure but there is more to being a top basketball player than free throws just like there is more to golf than great putting.

 

I'll disagree that putting is similar to free throw shooting all day long.

 

Putting accounts for what 40-50% of your score? And its much more difficult than putting your foot on the nail hole, middle finger on the air hole in the ball and doing the motion...  I'll agree that there is a TON to golf than just putting, but 3 bad swings and a good putt is still a 4.  

 

And while I'm sure we can all pick a random person we know that putts really well and say 'well thats not true because I know this one guy..." but thats not the point of his comment at all in my opinion.  I think what he was saying was that putting is the biggest variance between a good am and a low level pro, then from a low level pro to the top ones.  Like imagine if Sergio could putt well consistently with how amazing he hits the ball.

[ThinkingPlus]

1 hour ago, J_Tizzle said:

 

I'll disagree that putting is similar to free throw shooting all day long.

 

Putting accounts for what 40-50% of your score? And its much more difficult than putting your foot on the nail hole, middle finger on the air hole in the ball and doing the motion...  I'll agree that there is a TON to golf than just putting, but 3 bad swings and a good putt is still a 4.  

 

And while I'm sure we can all pick a random person we know that putts really well and say 'well thats not true because I know this one guy..." but thats not the point of his comment at all in my opinion.  I think what he was saying was that putting is the biggest variance between a good am and a low level pro, then from a low level pro to the top ones.  Like imagine if Sergio could putt well consistently with how amazing he hits the ball.

Except all of what you are saying has been statistically proven wrong.  No debate.  It's measured data and vetted mathematics.  The smallest variance between ams and pros is in putting.  The "talent" required to be a good or great putter can be found in a larger segment of the golfing population than any other aspect of the game.

[J_Tizzle]

53 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Except all of what you are saying has been statistically proven wrong.  No debate.  It's measured data and vetted mathematics.  The smallest variance between ams and pros is in putting.  The "talent" required to be a good or great putter can be found in a larger segment of the golfing population than any other aspect of the game.

 

I would love to read it if you have it available.

 

Just from my experience the best putters are the best golfers usually, and while high level ams could putt as well as low level pros, I didn't take this statement to be an end all be all absolute, but more an in general statement, by someone who was a low level pro, stating what he had experienced that the biggest difference between ams and pros is putting.  While it might not have been the "top ranked sr ams" or whatever, to me it holds a lot of weight, as I've seen it myself, rounds where I putt well I score much better than rounds when I putt poorly but hit it well.

 

Looking at my stats this year as I ended as a 0.6 handicap with 37 rounds posted.  I avg 31.4 putts a round, Cam Smith last year was 27.7 as the top, and Mike Gellerman avg 30.6, who was 200th on the PGA last year.  So just looking at that, Cam saves 3 strokes a round over Gellerman just with one club.

 

I think at the end of the day it just speaks to how good some of those guys truly hit the ball to give themselves so many opportunities, and still score well, while not putting well, like Sergio is what, 45th in the world, 170th in avg putts, 45th in SG tee-to-green,  70th in SG total.  I mean he knows his strength is his ball striking and the quickest way for Sergio to score better is his putting improving.

 

I mean I commend you if you had one wish to do something better in golf and the first thing you said wasn't "putt better", lol.  

 

Edit - so i mean I get your point that there are only 4 strokes differing me from Cam Smith in putting, so there must be a LOT of strokes otherwhere to create the difference from a weekend hack like myself and one of the best in the world.  But I guess, to me, its one of those thats the "step" between being a good and a great golfer is putting.  I hit 65% of my greens, so I could improve that, keep my putting the same (which of course it would get worst most likely since I'd be 2 putting more, vs missing a green and getting up and down).  The quickest way for a 100s shooter to get better isn't make more 12ft putts, its not wasting strokes tee to green.  The ability to have a round with sub 25 putts, for example.

Edited October 31, 2021 by J_Tizzle

[ThinkingPlus]

7 minutes ago, J_Tizzle said:

 

I would love to read it if you have it available.

 

Just from my experience the best putters are the best golfers usually, and while high level ams could putt as well as low level pros, I didn't take this statement to be an end all be all absolute, but more an in general statement, by someone who was a low level pro, stating what he had experienced that the biggest difference between ams and pros is putting.  While it might not have been the "top ranked sr ams" or whatever, to me it holds a lot of weight, as I've seen it myself, rounds where I putt well I score much better than rounds when I putt poorly but hit it well.

 

Looking at my stats this year as I ended as a 0.6 handicap with 37 rounds posted.  I avg 31.4 putts a round, Cam Smith last year was 27.7 as the top, and Mike Gellerman avg 30.6, who was 200th on the PGA last year.  So just looking at that, Cam saves 3 strokes a round over Gellerman just with one club.

 

I think at the end of the day it just speaks to how good some of those guys truly hit the ball to give themselves so many opportunities, and still score well, while not putting well, like Sergio is what, 45th in the world, 170th in avg putts, 45th in SG tee-to-green,  70th in SG total.  I mean he knows his strength is his ball striking and the quickest way for Sergio to score better is his putting improving.

 

I mean I commend you if you had one wish to do something better in golf and the first thing you said wasn't "putt better", lol.  

Read Broadie.  Every Shot Counts.  He came up with the strokes gained concept and metrics for golf.  I average around 29 putts per round and it is totally meaningless as a statistic.  It is a consequence of small, somewhat slow and easy greens.  Also my chipping (much of which is putting from fringes) and short pitches are better than average.

[ThinkingPlus]

1 hour ago, J_Tizzle said:

 

I would love to read it if you have it available.

 

Just from my experience the best putters are the best golfers usually, and while high level ams could putt as well as low level pros, I didn't take this statement to be an end all be all absolute, but more an in general statement, by someone who was a low level pro, stating what he had experienced that the biggest difference between ams and pros is putting.  While it might not have been the "top ranked sr ams" or whatever, to me it holds a lot of weight, as I've seen it myself, rounds where I putt well I score much better than rounds when I putt poorly but hit it well.

 

Looking at my stats this year as I ended as a 0.6 handicap with 37 rounds posted.  I avg 31.4 putts a round, Cam Smith last year was 27.7 as the top, and Mike Gellerman avg 30.6, who was 200th on the PGA last year.  So just looking at that, Cam saves 3 strokes a round over Gellerman just with one club.

 

I think at the end of the day it just speaks to how good some of those guys truly hit the ball to give themselves so many opportunities, and still score well, while not putting well, like Sergio is what, 45th in the world, 170th in avg putts, 45th in SG tee-to-green,  70th in SG total.  I mean he knows his strength is his ball striking and the quickest way for Sergio to score better is his putting improving.

 

I mean I commend you if you had one wish to do something better in golf and the first thing you said wasn't "putt better", lol.  

 

Edit - so i mean I get your point that there are only 4 strokes differing me from Cam Smith in putting, so there must be a LOT of strokes otherwhere to create the difference from a weekend hack like myself and one of the best in the world.  But I guess, to me, its one of those thats the "step" between being a good and a great golfer is putting.  I hit 65% of my greens, so I could improve that, keep my putting the same (which of course it would get worst most likely since I'd be 2 putting more, vs missing a green and getting up and down).  The quickest way for a 100s shooter to get better isn't make more 12ft putts, its not wasting strokes tee to green.  The ability to have a round with sub 25 putts, for example.

Actually what I am saying is that you and Cam Smith are likely much closer in putting ability than 4 strokes because you are using a flawed metric to determine putting merit.  As a wild guess I would say Cam Smith appears 4 strokes better than you because he is putting from much closer to the hole than you are.  Basically this can be summed up by the statement that there are no great one putters from 50 feet.

[TiScape]

This thread reminds me of an interesting article I read about NFL QBs who cannot throw.

[kasting333]

On 10/6/2021 at 5:17 PM, Fairway14 said:

Today's equipment has allowed many more players to be excellent ball strikes than ever before.

I really don’t think that has much to do with it. Good ball strikers hit the center of the face consistently. 

[bscinstnct]

5 hours ago, J_Tizzle said:

 

I'll disagree that putting is similar to free throw shooting all day long.

 

Putting accounts for what 40-50% of your score? And its much more difficult than putting your foot on the nail hole, middle finger on the air hole in the ball and doing the motion...  I'll agree that there is a TON to golf than just putting, but 3 bad swings and a good putt is still a 4.  

 

And while I'm sure we can all pick a random person we know that putts really well and say 'well thats not true because I know this one guy..." but thats not the point of his comment at all in my opinion.  I think what he was saying was that putting is the biggest variance between a good am and a low level pro, then from a low level pro to the top ones.  Like imagine if Sergio could putt well consistently with how amazing he hits the ball.

 

Putting may account for 40-50 of your score.

 

But not really as it relates to how good your score is vs the competition. 
 

In 2021 Rahm was SG +1.8 a round tee to green alone. He only gained .3 per round putting. 

 

And the leader in SG putting (LOost) only gained .7 a round.

 

And the best top 10 owgr player in SG putting was Bryson at .5. But Bryson picked up 1.5 tee to green. 

 

Tee to green is where the best in the world really separate from the pack. 
 

An elite ball striker can have a multi win year with pretty average putting. But a great putter with average ball striking will rarely, if ever, win on the pga tour. 
 

 

Edited October 31, 2021 by bscinstnct

[TiScape]

42 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Putting may account for 40-50 of your score.

 

But not really as it relates to how good your score is vs the competition. 
 

In 2021 Rahm was SG +1.8 a round tee to green alone. He only gained .3 per round putting. 

 

And the leader in SG putting (LOost) only gained .7 a round.

 

And the best top 10 owgr player in SG putting was Bryson at .5. But Bryson picked up 1.5 tee to green. 

 

Tee to green is where the best in the world really separate from the pack. 
 

An elite ball striker can have a multi win year with pretty average putting. But a great putter with average ball striking will rarely, if ever, win on the pga tour. 
 

 

I’d give you a “like” for your research alone on this one! Good post. Always appreciate when you show that you are so much more than the “be like” guy! 😂 

Edited October 31, 2021 by TiScape

[Shilgy]

6 hours ago, J_Tizzle said:

 

I'll disagree that putting is similar to free throw shooting all day long.

 

Putting accounts for what 40-50% of your score? And its much more difficult than putting your foot on the nail hole, middle finger on the air hole in the ball and doing the motion...  I'll agree that there is a TON to golf than just putting, but 3 bad swings and a good putt is still a 4.  

 

And while I'm sure we can all pick a random person we know that putts really well and say 'well thats not true because I know this one guy..." but thats not the point of his comment at all in my opinion.  I think what he was saying was that putting is the biggest variance between a good am and a low level pro, then from a low level pro to the top ones.  Like imagine if Sergio could putt well consistently with how amazing he hits the ball.

In theory putting does account for 40-50% of your strokes.  That is true.

 However, when you consider that probably half of those, or even more than half depending on number of greens hit, are tap ins that everyone on tour makes at an incredible rate that overall percentage is a bit deceiving.  Number 100 on tour for making putts 5 feet and in was at nearly 97%.  Hard to separate yourself and gain strokes there.