The Lido at Sand Valley

[ALo314]

I had the opportunity Monday evening to walk the 220 acre property where they are erecting the re-created Lido. Its incredible what they've done using WW2 era topography combined with modern computer technology to create an exact replica of one of the nations finest courses.

 

The property was solid timber and the region was used for decades to grow mature trees for paper milling. 

 

The beginning of November 2020 the first trees were cleared to start the construction of this project. They have 13 holes completed to date. Its crazy how much they've done in 11 months time. Getting to pick the brain of the SV manager who graciously granted us this opportunity, while walking the expansive layout was incredible. 

 

This place is going to be special.

 

[CDM]

This went right on the list of must play once heard about it.

[TeeAreNY]

This project is amazing. I'm even more interested in it because the current Lido Golf Club is a local course of mine. Robert Trent Jones even replicated the "#4 Channel Hole" as the 16th hole in the current Lido Golf Club and it's one of the most unique holes I've ever played. The rest of the course is fairly underwhelming, but the views of the bay make it a solid local option. It's crazy to drive around Lido Beach and think about this historic course that once stood and is now just a bunch of homes and a school. 

[NoCalHack]

It sounds amazing,  but I always wonder how one can recreate a seaside course inland.  

 

You couldn't recreate St. Andrews or Pebble Beach in the middle of Wisconsin.  I don't know how it works for this.  I heard an interview with Tom Doak who said the the wind conditions are similar, but I'm skeptical about that.

 

Don't get me wrong.  Would love to play it.

Edited October 6, 2021 by NoCalHack
"couldn't" not "could"

[TeeAreNY]

Besides the views of the bay and the ocean, most of the course is just on a sandy, open piece of land and I'm assuming they are just recreating the water hazards in play that was originally the bay/ocean. Based on the document above in the middle section, it says the routing will be the same so wind patterns will match. I'm a little confused by how this part works as well. Did they take historical wind data in Wisconsin to match up historical wind data of Long Island? 

[sabram]

Peter Flory, the guy who created the virtual version of the course and is working with Tom Doak to create the real thing, had started a fascinating thread on Golf Club Atlas in 2018 about his virtual creation. The original photos that he posted are now gone due to a change to his photo hosting site, but there are some nice newer pix starting later in the thread, which is  now 11 pages long. If you don't want to read the entire thing, start at page 9 which is where the more recent photos begin (although there is some interesting discussion preceding that). Here's a link: Peter Flory GCA Virtual Lido thread link

[CDM]

1 hour ago, NoCalHack said:

It sounds amazing,  but I always wonder how one can recreate a seaside course inland.  

 

You could recreate St. Andrews or Pebble Beach in the middle of Wisconsin.  I don't know how it works for this.  I heard an interview with Tom Doak who said the the wind conditions are similar, but I'm skeptical about that.

 

Don't get me wrong.  Would love to play it.

 

Sarcasm... Recreating Pebble without the ocean would be just a decent public course.  The views are amazing but the course is just "okay".

 

[NoCalHack]

1 minute ago, CDM said:

 

Sarcasm... Recreating Pebble without the ocean would be just a decent public course.  The views are amazing but the course is just "okay".

 

 

 

I wasn't being sarcastic.  I meant to say "couldn't".

 

 

There are a million factors besides views that can't be recreated.  Soil, grass, air, altitude, wind.  I'm sure the course will be great, but I'm not sure how it would compare to the Lido.  Probably a good thing for them that nobody will ever really know, because the Lido is not around anymore.  It has mythical status as a result.

[CDM]

1 hour ago, NoCalHack said:

 

 

I wasn't being sarcastic.  I meant to say "couldn't".

 

 

There are a million factors besides views that can't be recreated.  Soil, grass, air, altitude, wind.  I'm sure the course will be great, but I'm not sure how it would compare to the Lido.  Probably a good thing for them that nobody will ever really know, because the Lido is not around anymore.  It has mythical status as a result.

 

Sorry I was being sarcastic.  I think Pebble lives on the ocean views is all i was getting at. The course if not on the ocean would be pretty bland.

 

I agree that the original Lido would be complete different for exactly what you state.  Sadly we will never know, but it is nice to see someone trying to bring back a part of golf history as close as they can....though in a different area.

[Santiago Golf]

[delete]

Edited October 10, 2021 by Santiago Golf
discard information

[Phreddy]

22 minutes ago, Santiago Golf said:

You really couldn't recreate Pebble because of the elevation changes and how the holes play across the ocean 

 

You could easily recreate the Old Course because none of the hole play over the Ocean

 

Lido will be a top 10 course in the World the day it opens

Did the SV manager give you any information on how they are thinking about public play?  I was approached early on in the project (I'm not special.  I had friends who were "founders" at SV) about membership  and they made it sound as if public play would be extremely limited.  That may prove to be a moving target as plans continue to evolve.

 

Phred

[Santiago Golf]

1 minute ago, Phreddy said:

Did the SV manager give you any information on how they are thinking about public play?  I was approached early on in the project (I'm not special.  I had friends who were "founders" at SV) about membership  and they made it sound as if public play would be extremely limited.  That may prove to be a moving target as plans continue to evolve.

 

Phred

 

I work out at Sand Valley ... Im not allowed to say much

 

But they have not worked out the model quiet yet ... It will evolve over time

 

[NoCalHack]

51 minutes ago, Santiago Golf said:

You really couldn't recreate Pebble because of the elevation changes and how the holes play across the ocean 

 

You could easily recreate the Old Course because none of the hole play over the Ocean

 

Lido will be a top 10 course in the World the day it opens

 

i disagree about a links course like St Andres. There are many “links” courses in the states that play nothing like a true links course. I would say Bandon is a notable exception. 
 

What makes a links course is wind and the ground. Bandon recreates the weather really well and has the same fescue grass. Balls can be bounced into greens and you can putt from 40 feet off the green. Some Scottish guy even brought gorse over years ago and it invaded the Oregon coast.  It shows how similar the climate and vegetation is. 

 

but I digress. I don’t think you could recreate St Andrew’s or a true links course in Wisconsin. Even whistling straits does not play like a true links course. 

[klebs01]

3 hours ago, NoCalHack said:

 

i disagree about a links course like St Andres. There are many “links” courses in the states that play nothing like a true links course. I would say Bandon is a notable exception. 
 

What makes a links course is wind and the ground. Bandon recreates the weather really well and has the same fescue grass. Balls can be bounced into greens and you can putt from 40 feet off the green. Some Scottish guy even brought gorse over years ago and it invaded the Oregon coast.  It shows how similar the climate and vegetation is. 

 

but I digress. I don’t think you could recreate St Andrew’s or a true links course in Wisconsin. Even whistling straits does not play like a true links course. 

that all comes down to the soil conditions. Whistling straits is built on clay. Even if they tricked in a bunch of sand it’s still sitting on a clay base not too far down. Sand valley is sitting on several hundred feet of sand and drains exceptionally well. 
 

the links marketing in the US is unfortunate. Having few trees doesn’t make a course a links course. 

[Schley]

They have announced somewhere that the course will have outside play for those staying at the resort. Sounded like a small amount per day could be for resort guests. Probably stay 2-3 nights and play the other courses. Anything they allow is icing on the cake as it is a private course.

[Santiago Golf]

22 hours ago, NoCalHack said:

 

i disagree about a links course like St Andres. There are many “links” courses in the states that play nothing like a true links course. I would say Bandon is a notable exception. 
 

What makes a links course is wind and the ground. Bandon recreates the weather really well and has the same fescue grass. Balls can be bounced into greens and you can putt from 40 feet off the green. Some Scottish guy even brought gorse over years ago and it invaded the Oregon coast.  It shows how similar the climate and vegetation is. 

 

but I digress. I don’t think you could recreate St Andrew’s or a true links course in Wisconsin. Even whistling straits does not play like a true links course. 

 

 

Wind exists here in the US ... the wind isn't crazy in Scotland as people make it seam ... sure they have some really crazy days ... Ive played the Old Course and Cypress Point ... they are both windy ... Crail was even windy ... I also played on the West side of Michigan in some very crazy windy days as well 

 

Sandy Soil is a must for links courses and you could 'create' a sandy situation by bringing in sand & proper draining, sub air, etc ... 

 

Sure ... you can't just cut down tree at your local muni or private course and call it a Links

 

But we are talking about a very expensive project 

 

just my two cents and opinion 

 

I may be complete wrong

[CDM]

32 minutes ago, Santiago Golf said:

 

 

Wind exists here in the US ... the wind isn't crazy in Scotland as people make it seam ... sure they have some really crazy days ... Ive played the Old Course and Cypress Point ... they are both windy ... Crail was even windy ... I also played on the West side of Michigan in some very crazy windy days as well 

 

Sandy Soil is a must for links courses and you could 'create' a sandy situation by bringing in sand & proper draining, sub air, etc ... 

 

Sure ... you can't just cut down tree at your local muni or private course and call it a Links

 

But we are talking about a very expensive project 

 

just my two cents and opinion 

 

I may be complete wrong

The cost for the course was presented at 8 million.  Total for all aspects which listed homes was 35 million..  

 

*taken from the presentation they did for the project approval process

[Schley]

Wait they are selling homes for 35 million? Or the total they will get from selling the home sites is 35 million?

[ALo314]

1 hour ago, Schley said:

Wait they are selling homes for 35 million? Or the total they will get from selling the home sites is 35 million?

I would imagine that the $35 million estimate is for all the plots on the Lido Conservancy.

[Ryan3773]

10 hours ago, Schley said:

Wait they are selling homes for 35 million? Or the total they will get from selling the home sites is 35 million?

35 million per house. The housing market in Central Wisconsin is hot

[tiderider]

On 10/6/2021 at 5:03 PM, Santiago Golf said:

You really couldn't recreate Pebble because of the elevation changes and how the holes play across the ocean 

 

You could easily recreate the Old Course because none of the hole play over the Ocean

 

Lido will be a top 10 course in the World the day it opens

[ALo314]

On 10/8/2021 at 5:40 PM, tiderider said:

Which statement are you curious about?

[tiderider]

1 hour ago, ALo314 said:

Which statement are you curious about?

the last one

[Phreddy]

23 minutes ago, tiderider said:

the last one

Does it really matter?  Top 10, top 50, top 100....

 

I could care less how some golf aficionado ranks it.  It is a bold idea and should be fun to play.

[JNewsted]

I'm very skeptical and grumpy about the whole "private course" situation.  Like... why?  I love SV.  Have been going there since it was 9 holes and an active construction site with only a trailer.  But those courses are the only reason to be within two hours of there.  With the Keisers being such advocates for public golf, and then to build THE LIDO and have to tell all those resort golfers "oh, you can't play this one unless you know XXX or give us $$$" just hits me wrong.  But we'll see.

[tiderider]

3 hours ago, Phreddy said:

Does it really matter?  Top 10, top 50, top 100....

 

I could care less how some golf aficionado ranks it.  It is a bold idea and should be fun to play.

nothing we discuss on this forum "really matters" ...  yet, here we are ... discussing and opining things that don't "really matter", like someone's opinion that this will immediately be a top 10 course world wide ... questioning someone saying it will immediately be a top ten course world wide is not an indictment of the course ... i couldn't care less how fun the course is, or how bold the idea is ... i have my doubts it will be a top 10 course, legit or otherwise ... didn't mean to rankle anyone ... 

 

 

 

 

[ode]

On 10/6/2021 at 10:12 AM, ALo314 said:

I had the opportunity Monday evening to walk the 220 acre property where they are erecting the re-created Lido. Its incredible what they've done using WW2 era topography combined with modern computer technology to create an exact replica of one of the nations finest courses.

 

The property was solid timber and the region was used for decades to grow mature trees for paper milling. 

 

The beginning of November 2020 the first trees were cleared to start the construction of this project. They have 13 holes completed to date. Its crazy how much they've done in 11 months time. Getting to pick the brain of the SV manager who graciously granted us this opportunity, while walking the expansive layout was incredible. 

 

This place is going to be special.

 

That's super!  Coincidentally I was there on Wednesday. Played at the Oaks in Cottage Grove in the a.m. and headed up to Lake Arrowhead and played the Pines mid afternoon and told my buddy we needed to hit up Craig's Porch for some tacos.  Cheap eats with beautiful scenery.😎.  I pointed across the road and said that's where the Lido is being built.... couldn't see much but some equipment/machinery and the watering....maybe what's shown in the pic🤔 if you took it the same day!

[ode]

On 10/6/2021 at 1:42 PM, NoCalHack said:

It sounds amazing,  but I always wonder how one can recreate a seaside course inland

I posed the same question in a Lido thread in the Midwest section.  You could not recreate the coastal views, but that area has it's own unique landscape.  I could not believe my eyes when I drove in.  I was not prepared for the huge sand dunes, and the scope of all the sand....in the middle of Wisconsin.  I had read all about it,.saw the pictures, etc., but seeing it in person was another experience.

Coast it is not, but bland and boring, it is also not!  What I don't know is if there are huge dunes across the road from SV/MD?  I've never played a seaside course, so I do not know how the turf at SV compares to the turf at Brandon, or at St. Andrews .....but would love to know.  SV is definitely firm and fast, so they have that.  I think in that Golf Club Atlas forum they talked about the Lido at a site on the Oregon coast but it was wrong for the project, so they passed.  So seaside is not the only consideration! The only way to truly "recreate" the Lido would be to go to the original spot!

[Phreddy]

1 hour ago, tiderider said:

nothing we discuss on this forum "really matters" ...  yet, here we are ... discussing and opining things that don't "really matter", like someone's opinion that this will immediately be a top 10 course world wide ... questioning someone saying it will immediately be a top ten course world wide is not an indictment of the course ... i couldn't care less how fun the course is, or how bold the idea is ... i have my doubts it will be a top 10 course, legit or otherwise ... didn't mean to rankle anyone ... 

 

 

 

 

Fair enough, and I was being a bit of a snot.  I some times rankle at the idea everything from clubs to courses needs a ranking.  Did you like it?  Did you feel like it was a fair value?  Did you have fun?  Chalk it up to this being a rainy day with no golf and a long honey-do-list.  Ornery.

[ALo314]

15 hours ago, JNewsted said:

I'm very skeptical and grumpy about the whole "private course" situation.  Like... why?  I love SV.  Have been going there since it was 9 holes and an active construction site with only a trailer.  But those courses are the only reason to be within two hours of there.  With the Keisers being such advocates for public golf, and then to build THE LIDO and have to tell all those resort golfers "oh, you can't play this one unless you know XXX or give us $$$" just hits me wrong.  But we'll see.

The only reason to be within 2 hours of there?

 

You're missing out on some great non-golf experiences if that is really your take on Central Wisconsin.