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Titleist T100 - T100S - T200 Maltby Playability Released


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Another one I'm cherry picking here

 

Tommy Armour 845 Oversized irons - the GOAT irons for every junior golfer in the late 90s and early 2000s -  has a rating of 400

 

Keeping in the same brand and vintage, the Tommy Armour 845 blades (released in 2003) have a rating of 650 

Cobra Speedzone 8.5* // Smoke Yellow x-flex
TaylorMade Original One 12* // EvenFlow Black x-flex

TaylorMade SIM UDI 18* // Diamana Thump 100 x-flex

Srixon U85 23* // Modus 120x
Mizuno JPX919 Tour 5-PW // TT X100

Vokey // SM7 50-54-58 // TT X100

Odyssey 2-Ball Ten Tour Lined S 

 

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54 minutes ago, WristySwing said:

 

Count me in as one of the naysayers and believing that the MPF is mostly fluff.  I understand what it is measuring.  I think it would go over a little bit better if they do away with the category at the end truth be told but I still think it is largely smoke and mirrors..  They have the actual measured values and they feel the need to adjust these values on what seem to be arbitrary, vague descriptions based on what they deem to be good or bad in an iron.  Has anyone actually tested with concrete numbers that a VCOG over 0.840" is detrimental, produces a sub-optimal ball flight, or is a difficult impact location for the average person?  Why is VCOG weighted so heavily and MOI (especially what we know now from drivers) seemingly weighted so little in the calculation, with MOI also having a corrective factor that isn't explicitly explained?  Would the actual values not be more important and indicative of how easy something is to hit?  

I think this is by far my favourite example.  While cherry picked, it provides a very good example of why the MPF is confusing and could be argued as an outdated measurement tool. Here we have a tour blade and a hybrid iron with virtually indistinguishable ratings despite the MOI and rearward COG (two quantifiable, testable things in terms of golf club mechanics that are utilized lately year over year to show how easy to hit something is in terms of lift and directional accuracy) being so far skewed in favour of the hybrid iron.  However, after the VCOG "penalty" is added and the "correction of the MOI" (whatever that means) is added they come out with virtually indistinguishable differences in the MPF score and both with ratings of game improvement.   I don't think you'd get even the most staunch MPF enthusiast, ignorant of the end values if they were done in a blind study, walking away saying these two clubs are even on the same planet in terms of usability for the average player with the same shaft, grip, weight, etc.  Physics or not, a person still has to swing the club and I don't care who you are, almost nobody is going to argue that a blade has the same playability characteristics as a hybrid iron, especially with this skew largely in favour of the Hibore HB before any mystery adjustments are set.

 

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I personally believe the opposite.  I’d bet dollars to doughnuts that those two irons are easy to hit up to the 5 iron.  It’s usually loft vs speed that makes the largest difference.   
 

ive found MPF to be pretty spot on.  My cherry picked example is the i500.  Hogg is very high on these and makes the mid  to long irons a challenge.  For some.  
 

 

look it really depends on your miss. If you are steep and  hit it fat as a miss. A higher Vcog will suit you.  If you’re shallow and the miss is thin.  These type irons usually don’t work.  
 

I think Maltby does a great job of objectively rating and measuring These  clubs.  They don’t seem to see the word “ blade “ or “ mb” and have the fear response  that most do.  

 

52142422-0BB4-4F80-B943-289341D4763F.png

Edited by bladehunter
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1 hour ago, RCGA said:

How are they defining "playability" 

 

Because some of these chunky game improvement irons with high MPF scores would be unplayable for me. 

 

I'm seeing some weird results like the somewhat oversized TaylorMade R9 TP irons @ 218 MPF but the Titleist MB blades are 343 

 

How would they be unplayable?  Too much bounce?  It is done based on vertical COG, blade length, and rearward COG primarily.  Think of it along the lines of how similar is this iron to a driver in terms of low and deep CG, and face side to side and you essentially have the MPF figured out.  Which is why it is even more confusing how they can rate arguably difficult to hit clubs for the average player (your generally defined blades and player's cavity backs) as high as they do and generally considered easy to hit clubs, like hybrid irons, as less friendly.  I guess from a physics standpoint it could have some merit, but from a real-world performance and digging it out of the turf situation, it does not.

Edited by WristySwing

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54 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I personally believe the opposite.  I’d bet dollars to doughnuts that those two irons are easy to hit up to the 5 iron.  It’s usually loft vs speed that makes the largest difference.   
 

ive found MPF to be pretty spot on.  My cherry picked example is the i500.  Hogg is very high on these and makes the mid  to long irons a challenge.  For some.  
 

 

look it really depends on your miss. If you are steep and  hit it fat as a miss. A higher Vcog will suit you.  If you’re shallow and the miss is thin.  These type irons usually don’t work.  
 

I think Maltby does a great job of objectively rating and measuring These  clubs.  They don’t seem to see the word “ blade “ or “ mb” and have the fear response  that most do.  

 

52142422-0BB4-4F80-B943-289341D4763F.png

 

I'd bet the same dollars to doughnuts they are not for your average player.  I think you are probably on to something with the steep vs. shallow aspect.  If we use a less extreme example (because in my fittings I have found the i500 to be perfect for sweepers and it had a lot of low-side protection getting the ball up in the air quite effectively with ample spin), let's look at the Blueprint vs. i210.  Again here we have a really confusing example.  I have fit with both of these.  The Blueprint is not a forgiving iron nor does it hit it particularly high.  The i210 is like a cheat code for a fit for someone who needs launch and spin and wants a player's look but isn't good enough to go into a T100, ZX7, or JPX921 Tour.  Here again we have a drastic difference in ratings for irons that in real world scenarios couldn't be further apart.  I have given both of these clubs to steep and shallow players and the majority of the time, the i210 is much easier to hit. 

image.png.33f5efb0ddec5c94f97c3072f8ca9fc9.png

image.png.e1d3d853b9551e36e34a34ceb5fd13a9.png

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I look at this as a guide, like the Mizuno shaft optimizer.  It may not be spot on for everyone, but it could be used as a starting point.  Best way to know what's true is for the player alone to go hit the clubs.  That's the only true data IMO.

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32 minutes ago, WristySwing said:

 

I'd bet the same dollars to doughnuts they are not for your average player.  I think you are probably on to something with the steep vs. shallow aspect.  If we use a less extreme example (because in my fittings I have found the i500 to be perfect for sweepers and it had a lot of low-side protection getting the ball up in the air quite effectively with ample spin), let's look at the Blueprint vs. i210.  Again here we have a really confusing example.  I have fit with both of these.  The Blueprint is not a forgiving iron nor does it hit it particularly high.  The i210 is like a cheat code for a fit for someone who needs launch and spin and wants a player's look but isn't good enough to go into a T100, ZX7, or JPX921 Tour.  Here again we have a drastic difference in ratings for irons that in real world scenarios couldn't be further apart.  I have given both of these clubs to steep and shallow players and the majority of the time, the i210 is much easier to hit. 

image.png.33f5efb0ddec5c94f97c3072f8ca9fc9.png

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I still disagree. And that’s cool.  I played the I 500 for 8 months.  I owned i210 for over a month and i played blueprint from 2 months before they became available ( through a connection I got a set ) for an entire tournament season.    The blueprint by far is easier to hit in my opinion and for my thin miss. 
 

You have to consider that most don’t play an iron above a 5.  A lot above 6.  So consider the lofts.  My blueprint set was the retro loft. So weak.  That puts them at the 4 loft for loft. 
 

the blueprint is no more a blade than the t100 is.  ( it’s not ) it just has a flat back.  See it’s weighting design and bounce numbers etc. 

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1 hour ago, WristySwing said:

let's look at the Blueprint vs. i210.  Again here we have a really confusing example.

 

It's not confusing at all.  

 

MPF penalizes clubs with a CG above the midpoint of a golfball.  The i210 CG is considerably above that, and therefore, receives a lower score.

 

MOI is a relatively minor player in the MPF formula.

 

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The Ever Changing Bag!  A lot of mixing and matching
Driver: Original One 11.5* (tuned down), NV75 X -or- SpeedZone 10.5*, Aldila ProtoPype 80S, <44" TBD

3w: King LTD, Aldila RIP Beta 90 X -or- TM Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 X
Hybrid:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour 2h or 3h, NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S

Irons grab bag:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4; 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, SteelFiber i125 S -or- Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; PM Grind 19 58* -or- Wilson Staff PMP 58*, Dynamic S
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34" -or- Cleveland Huntington Beach #1, 34.5" -or- Golden Ram TW Custom, 34"
Balls: Wilson Staff Duo Professional, TaylorMade TP5, Chrome Soft custom TruVis

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5 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Was I a plus cap with the CF16s? Yes, however, my cap last year reached a low point of +3.3 and this year I have more sub-par rounds than ever before (11 out of 49 posted rounds) playing the TS-1s. 


I just wanted to offer some polite golf applause for your quality play  🙂  👏

 

Edited by NRJyzr
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The Ever Changing Bag!  A lot of mixing and matching
Driver: Original One 11.5* (tuned down), NV75 X -or- SpeedZone 10.5*, Aldila ProtoPype 80S, <44" TBD

3w: King LTD, Aldila RIP Beta 90 X -or- TM Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 X
Hybrid:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour 2h or 3h, NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S

Irons grab bag:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4; 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, SteelFiber i125 S -or- Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; PM Grind 19 58* -or- Wilson Staff PMP 58*, Dynamic S
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34" -or- Cleveland Huntington Beach #1, 34.5" -or- Golden Ram TW Custom, 34"
Balls: Wilson Staff Duo Professional, TaylorMade TP5, Chrome Soft custom TruVis

GripMaster Roo or Kidd leather grips

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3 hours ago, NRJyzr said:


I just wanted to offer some polite golf applause for your quality play  🙂  👏

 

I know right!? @ThinkingPlus is the quiet assassin among us.    Go ahead and post some putting stats to completely kill me !  😂
 

Sarcasm of course.  Good playing !  Can’t really argue with that ! 

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2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I know right!? @ThinkingPlus is the quiet assassin among us.    Go ahead and post some putting stats to completely kill me !  😂
 

Sarcasm of course.  Good playing !  Can’t really argue with that ! 

Just to make you feel a little better my average number of putts is... just under 29.  Terrible I know, right?  However, I am negative strokes gained putting against a touring pro (and am devastated 🤪).

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1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I am negative strokes gained putting against a touring pro (and am devastated 🤪).


Will Ferrell Crying GIF

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5 hours ago, drgolfaholic said:

F973B9CA-CD53-4C31-A642-F1F1C20D832B.jpeg.db3fc93c53c2c29f8010e69bd5b4266d.jpeg

This raises my eyebrows.  Who would figure CBs are harder to hit than blades?  

I would say both are hard to hit.  The difference isn't real significant. Someone with high swing speed that played on lush turf could make either work, but could surely find more forgiving clubs that would work better.

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On 10/6/2021 at 12:36 PM, Cactus Jack said:

 

Just like clockwork 🙂 . The above comment demonstrates the lack of understanding I knew would find it's way into this thread.

 

For folks that are interested in understanding better what MPF is, and is not, below is a quick snippet followed by a link for a more detailed explanation. Understanding the measurements vs. looking at a score is the context needed to make the data meaningful. 

 

Brief Summary:

 

Playability Factor is determined by a simple evaluation of the laws of physics and applied advanced mathematics to develop a formula that computes an index of clubhead Playability. For example, for irons the formula evaluates five dimensional and mass properties of an iron head

Vertical Center of Gravity

Horizontal Center of Gravity

Rearward Center of Gravity

Geometric Center of the Face

Moment of Inertia

 

Detailed Summary: https://ralphmaltby.com/what-is-mpf/

Golf clubs are used in a dynamic fashion, not static.  So while some of this data might give you part of the picture it’s not close to the big picture.  
sole width, bounce, grind, you know actual turf interaction…face flexing dynamics, true launch and spin data, and where the forgiving spot actually is.  How about long and short iron data?  Just picking a 6 iron seems pretty weak.   It seems with modern Tech it’s becoming less valuable every year. 
 

There are much better places to get data on how clubs actually perform. 

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20 hours ago, dlygrisse said:

Golf clubs are used in a dynamic fashion, not static.  So while some of this data might give you part of the picture it’s not close to the big picture.  
sole width, bounce, grind, you know actual turf interaction…face flexing dynamics, true launch and spin data, and where the forgiving spot actually is.  How about long and short iron data?  Just picking a 6 iron seems pretty weak.   It seems with modern Tech it’s becoming less valuable every year. 
 

There are much better places to get data on how clubs actually perform. 

 

MPF does not provide data on how clubs actually perform. MPF is a formula that evaluates five dimensional and mass properties of an iron head. MPF is a data point to be used in conjunction with dynamic testing, not to replace dynamic testing. Everything is explained in detail within both the Maltby website and Ralph's book.  

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On 10/6/2021 at 12:27 PM, Cactus Jack said:

Thanks for sharing. 

 

I assume folks will bash the MPF results. However, I never understand why. MPF simply represents a numerical value for the physical aspects of an iron head. No more, no less, and every head in their database is measure exactly the same way. To be clear, it's not a forgiveness rating system, it's a measurement system. For simplicity sake, the ratings are grouped into bands, which approximate general playability, but not absolute playability. For example, based on the physical attributes of a 1920's Mashie, one might find it to be less playable than a new T100. However, given an individuals swing dynamics a Mashie might actually produce better results.    

Well said!

 

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On 10/7/2021 at 11:22 AM, ThinkingPlus said:

Here is another comparison that I have personal experience with.

 

Apex #6 (2016)

Year2016

BrandCallaway

Head Weight261.6

"C" Dimension1.207

Basic VCOG0.871

Moment of Inertia (MOI)12.4838

Actual RCOG0.457

Loft27

VCOG Adjustment-0.007

Actual VCOG0.864

VCOG Correction Factor-24

MOI Correction Factor0

Calculated Points319

MPF349

 

Vs.

 

Year2019
BrandMaltby
Head Weight258.3
"C" Dimension1.396
Basic VCOG0.778
Moment of Inertia (MOI)11.7651
Actual RCOG0.466
Loft28
VCOG Adjustment-0.028
Actual VCOG0.750
VCOG Correction Factor0
MOI Correction Factor35
Calculated Points681
MPF711

 

I played the CF16s well when we lived in Albuquerque where I had purchased them after a range fitting.  We moved to Texas a year later.  I started noticing issues with my ball flight immediately.  From lush lies, when I had them, very little difference, but tight, firm, and hard pan lies I was hitting low knuckle balls that fell out of the sky.  Happened most often with the longer irons (5 and 6).

 

Finally out of frustration I started digging into the information on the CF16s that everyone had said were the greatest thing since sliced bread.  Found that the VCOG was 0.864".  This is 0.024" above the vertical CG of the ball.  Basically off hard pan or similar, you cannot drive the club CG at or below the ball CG, hence low knuckle balls.

 

So, I switched to the Maltby TS-1s.  Notice they have about the same MOI as the CF16s implying similar forgiveness, but the VCOG is dramatically lower at 0.75".  No more low knuckle balls.  I still hit plenty of thin shots (it's south TX - nobody takes deep divots unless you enjoy hospital food), but they launch higher and have some spin.  It is now a playable miss.

 

Was I a plus cap with the CF16s? Yes, however, my cap last year reached a low point of +3.3 and this year I have more sub-par rounds than ever before (11 out of 49 posted rounds) playing the TS-1s.  The lower CG clubs make a difference in the conditions I typically play in and for my relatively slow swing speed (low 90s at best with driver).  My misses play better so I score better.

 

 

On a well hit iron shot, the ball has left the clubface before the sole of the club hits the ground. Granted on hard pan most will not try to hit down as much.

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3 hours ago, JCAG said:

On a well hit iron shot, the ball has left the clubface before the sole of the club hits the ground. Granted on hard pan most will not try to hit down as much.

Not on hard pan.  To drive the CG of the club thru the CG of the ball on hard pan the club will be in contact with the ground or impact the ground before the ball leaves the face.  Basic geometry.

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On 10/12/2021 at 6:04 PM, ThinkingPlus said:

Not on hard pan.  To drive the CG of the club thru the CG of the ball on hard pan the club will be in contact with the ground or impact the ground before the ball leaves the face.  Basic geometry.

 

I don't think this is true.  Fast forward this video to the 3-minute mark and go through it frame by frame.  You can see someone hitting off of a cart path (the hardest hard pan in golf) and you can clearly see the club impact the ground, indicated by the dust and such showing up, well after the ball is airborne.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R__7rCTNoiA&ab_channel=DownTheMiddle

 

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Cobra SpeedZone Tour Big 3 wood - Veylix Arcane

Callaway Rogue SZ 5 wood - Diamana Thump 85

PXG 0211DC 5-P - Elevate Tour

Titleist SM8 50, 54, 58 - Accra 123i

Bettinardi Prototype/Scotty Cameron T22 Newport

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15 minutes ago, WristySwing said:

 

I don't think this is true.  Fast forward this video to the 3-minute mark and go through it frame by frame.  You can see someone hitting off of a cart path (the hardest hard pan in golf) and you can clearly see the club impact the ground, indicated by the dust and such showing up, well after the ball is airborne.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R__7rCTNoiA&ab_channel=DownTheMiddle

 

But, where is the club vertical CG in relation to the ball CG?  There's the rub.  With a club with CG at or above the CG of the ball, geometrically you cannot swing the club such that the club sole is not in contact with the ground while the ball is still on the face.

 

Someone can easily hit a "thin" shot that can be reasonably effective.  In fact with high enough swing speed that pros typically generate the shot may have played very well.  The shot in the video, as best I can tell, looks like a thin shot picked off a dirt path.

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6 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

But, where is the club vertical CG in relation to the ball CG?  There's the rub.  With a club with CG at or above the CG of the ball, geometrically you cannot swing the club such that the club sole is not in contact with the ground while the ball is still on the face.

 

Someone can easily hit a "thin" shot that can be reasonably effective.  In fact with high enough swing speed that pros typically generate the shot may have played very well.  The shot in the video, as best I can tell, looks like a thin shot picked off a dirt path.

 

That's a good point.  Just being stupid, but you could argue for a lot of amateurs, especially on some scruffier courses, that their sole never touches the ground at all if the grass is too long and they are shallow.  The ball will be sitting up like a tee and the sole brush the grass but probably not interact with the turf.

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On 10/11/2021 at 11:15 AM, Cactus Jack said:

 

MPF does not provide data on how clubs actually perform. MPF is a formula that evaluates five dimensional and mass properties of an iron head. MPF is a data point to be used in conjunction with dynamic testing, not to replace dynamic testing. Everything is explained in detail within both the Maltby website and Ralph's book.  

I haven’t read any of the book in awhile, does it discuss modern thin faced irons and how all of his data points behave in relation to this tech?

 

I also wonder why he just does this for irons, the actual process seems much more relevant for drivers, fairways and hybrids.  Until, he does this for at least a long, middle and short iron I just don’t see how it is valuable at all. 
 

from personal experience, owning multiple sets of irons over 30+ years I know that sometimes his data seems good and other times total garbage. 

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Ping G410 3, 5 and 7 wood

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Odyssey Pro #1 black
Hoofer, Ecco, Bushnell
ProV1x-mostly
 

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3 hours ago, dlygrisse said:

I haven’t read any of the book in awhile, does it discuss modern thin faced irons and how all of his data points behave in relation to this tech?

 

I also wonder why he just does this for irons, the actual process seems much more relevant for drivers, fairways and hybrids.  Until, he does this for at least a long, middle and short iron I just don’t see how it is valuable at all. 
 

from personal experience, owning multiple sets of irons over 30+ years I know that sometimes his data seems good and other times total garbage. 

Doing the measurements for many irons per set or including other types of clubs becomes very time consuming and expensive especially given that the results are made available to everyone free.  It is somewhat of a weakness not to see how the values change throughout a set.  His philosophy seems to be that mid irons are representative of the more difficult irons to hit in a set and thus provide a litmus test for forgiveness.

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1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Doing the measurements for many irons per set or including other types of clubs becomes very time consuming and expensive especially given that the results are made available to everyone free.  It is somewhat of a weakness not to see how the values change throughout a set.  His philosophy seems to be that mid irons are representative of the more difficult irons to hit in a set and thus provide a litmus test for forgiveness.

Agreed.  And that’s why I think the rankings at “the site not to be mentioned” hold more water.  3 clubs, actual data, from actual players hitting balls.  Yes there are flaws with both, and while MPF was groundbreaking I feel they have fallen behind the times.  

Ping G400
Ping G410 3, 5 and 7 wood

Ping G410 5 hybrid
Mizuno JPX 921 Hot Metal. 5-G
Vokey 54,58 Testing TM MG2 60* TW grind and MG3 56* TW grind.  
Odyssey Pro #1 black
Hoofer, Ecco, Bushnell
ProV1x-mostly
 

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1 minute ago, dlygrisse said:

Agreed.  And that’s why I think the rankings at “the site not to be mentioned” hold more water.  3 clubs, actual data, from actual players hitting balls.  Yes there are flaws with both, and while MPF was groundbreaking I feel they have fallen behind the times.  

I don't look at MPF.  Basic measurements are far more meaningful to me and most all I need to determine whether a club is one I will hit well or not.  The only things missing are bounce and, less significantly, sole width.  Everything else is just cosmetics and BS.

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