Why not degree of loft on irons vs a number?

[NRJyzr]

2 hours ago, Bad9 said:

Why do you think about the degree of loft while playing? Why not just know what you hit that 4 iron?

 

I'm not bek, won't try to speak for him.  But, since I've done this and still do it from time to time, I'll offer my answer.  <shrug>

 

1999 was my first full season playing golf.  In 2000, I started exploring a few club options here and there.  In 2001, I began playing my first set of classic blades.  From there through 2005 or 2006, I went through at least 30, perhaps 40+, different sets of irons, constantly trying different sets on the course.  They were all set up with similar shafts, but they didn't all have the same lofts.

 

If I was going to try have a consistent distance between a set of Palmer Standards, Precept Tour Premiums, MS-11s, and Golden Rams, it occurred to me it's probably better to think in terms of the loft of my clubs, and not try translating between the assorted club numbers.

 

Not every translation from set to set is as easy as going from my MP37s to my TW282 Golden Rams, the latter being exactly 4* weaker throughout the set (with a couple minor differences at the long end).  😉

 

[Bad9]

28 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

I'm not bek, won't try to speak for him.  But, since I've done this and still do it from time to time, I'll offer my answer.  <shrug>

 

1999 was my first full season playing golf.  In 2000, I started exploring a few club options here and there.  In 2001, I began playing my first set of classic blades.  From there through 2005 or 2006, I went through at least 30, perhaps 40+, different sets of irons, constantly trying different sets on the course.  They were all set up with similar shafts, but they didn't all have the same lofts.

 

If I was going to try have a consistent distance between a set of Palmer Standards, Precept Tour Premiums, MS-11s, and Golden Rams, it occurred to me it's probably better to think in terms of the loft of my clubs, and not try translating between the assorted club numbers.

 

Not every translation from set to set is as easy as going from my MP37s to my TW282 Golden Rams, the latter being exactly 4* weaker throughout the set (with a couple minor differences at the long end).  😉

 

I get knowing your specs and making sure they give you consistent distances. But do you really think about the loft of the club while playing? Thats the part I don't get.

[joostin]

To add to the fire, we also have manufacturing tolerances, like +/-1° that Maltby calls out on their clubs.  Then we have the precision of someone setting up and measuring a club on a loft/lie gauge.  One person on one gauge can measure a different loft than another person on another gauge measuring the same club.

 

I trust the molds and dies are correct to the CAD designs.  Initially the club lofts would be accurate (though someone measuring on their own device can get different readings of lofts).  But things getting bent out of shape a little over time or through fittings or club tweaking, can make that loft number invalid.

 

I'd imagine Ben Hogan golf heard all the views on loft (ego pumping, ego hurting, annoyance of people asking what you hit, annoyance of converting to a traditional number, marketing of distance, bending, etc.), and that's probably why they went "f it, let's go back to traditional numbers", lol.

[bekgolf]

5 hours ago, Bad9 said:

Why do you think about the degree of loft while playing? Why not just know what you hit that 4 iron?

 

I'm OCD about things like that, lol.  And yes, now that I'm used to my new/used irons I'm back to mostly thinking iron numbers.  For awhile I had to remind myself that just about every club was "off" by one number.

 

I was mostly wondering why we have iron numbers instead of degrees of loft.  Someone mentioned Bobby Jones starting it back in the day of the mashie.  That's something I didn't know.  I also didn't know that some club manufacturers had stamped degrees on their irons in the past.

 

As far as what someone else is hitting into a green I could care less.  I don't ask and don't care.

[NRJyzr]

6 hours ago, Bad9 said:

I get knowing your specs and making sure they give you consistent distances. But do you really think about the loft of the club while playing? Thats the part I don't get.

 

Yes, I really do.

 

[dhappy42]

The only time I care what club or loft another player with a similar swing speed is using is on par 3s. If they tee off with an 8-iron and fall short, I might use a 7-iron. But that's dumb without knowing the respective lofts of the clubs. 

[Bad9]

2 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Yes, I really do.

 

We’ll just have to agree that you guys are weird😉

[NRJyzr]

1 hour ago, Bad9 said:

We’ll just have to agree that you guys are weird😉

 

I already knew that.   LOL

 

What I don't get is why someone thinks a 37" 33* club with 7 on the sole is somehow superior to a 37" 33* club that has 5 on the sole.

 

[Bad9]

3 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

I already knew that.   LOL

 

What I don't get is why someone thinks a 37" 33* club with 7 on the sole is somehow superior to a 37" 33* club that has 5 on the sole.

 

 

I don't have an answer to that either, I just want to know how far I typically hit it.

[Titleist_PT23]

7 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

What I don't get is why someone thinks a 37" 33* club with 7 on the sole is somehow superior to a 37" 33* club that has 5 on the sole.

 

What I don't get is why someone thinks a 37" 33* club with a 5 on the sole is somehow superior to a 37" 33* club with a 7 on the sole.

[NRJyzr]

4 hours ago, agolf1 said:

What I don't get is why someone thinks a 37" 33* club with a 5 on the sole is somehow superior to a 37" 33* club with a 7 on the sole.

 

Nice try.  I know of no one who thinks that.  

[Nels55]

15 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

 

I already knew that.   LOL

 

What I don't get is why someone thinks a 37" 33* club with 7 on the sole is somehow superior to a 37" 33* club that has 5 on the sole.

 

Because they don't know that their new 7 iron is the same loft and length as their old 5 iron!  They just know that their new 7 iron goes the same distance as their old 5 iron which makes the game easier!  Or does it?  LOL that is how loft jacking got started and is the reason some sets may need 3 lob wedges...  In the end it doesn't really matter.  LOL every club manufacturer has to compete to try to sell clubs and make money.

[RobotDoctor]

I prefer an iron number as opposed to loft.  The exception are the wedges (GW, SW, LW) which loft numbers are fine.  I bend my irons to a specific loft and gap them by 4 degrees.  I know what the lofts are from my 4 iron through LW and know how far I hit my stock shots for each one.  For me it is just easier to pick a number than to look at the loft then figure how far I hit that club.  Of course if it were the other way around I would have adapted to loft than number.  As it is, iron numbers are what I am used to and what I prefer.

[khalespace]

My Mavrik PW is 41* loft and I can hit it 125 yards, shaft length is reduced by 0.5 inch. I know it is really strong lofted by 2 clubs but they position the weight so that it is really high launch, the ball flight is not lower than my old MX-20 PW even though it is 15 yards longer.

Edited October 11, 2021 by khalespace

[NoTalentLefty]

26 minutes ago, khalespace said:

My Mavrik PW is 41* loft and I can hit it 125 yards, shaft length is reduced by 0.5 inch. I know it is really strong lofted by 2 clubs but they position the weight so that it is really high launch, the ball flight is not lower than my old MX-20 PW even though it is 15 yards longer.

Yes. It plays like a PW not an 8 iron for you. That’s all that matters. Also your Mavrik irons probably give you better gapping if it was like for me. Guessing there but I regained at least a 12 yard gap between irons.

[khalespace]

2 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Because they don't know that their new 7 iron is the same loft and length as their old 5 iron!  They just know that their new 7 iron goes the same distance as their old 5 iron which makes the game easier!  Or does it?  LOL that is how loft jacking got started and is the reason some sets may need 3 lob wedges...  In the end it doesn't really matter.  LOL every club manufacturer has to compete to try to sell clubs and make money.

I think there is some jacking up of the lofts to compete on distance. However, there is also a improvement in material and design that allow ball flights to be much higher for the same loft. A new 7 iron, even with the same loft as an old 5 iron, has much higher ball flight and is much easier to play with. I have tried 30 year old irons and they aren't very easy to hit.

[NRJyzr]

28 minutes ago, khalespace said:

I have tried 30 year old irons and they aren't very easy to hit.

 

Depends on the club in question.  <shrug> 

 

Eye2/Eye2+ and 845s are 30 years old, or more.  I'm not sure I'd class them as hard to hit.  😉

 

[Nels55]

25 minutes ago, khalespace said:

I think there is some jacking up of the lofts to compete on distance. However, there is also a improvement in material and design that allow ball flights to be much higher for the same loft. A new 7 iron, even with the same loft as an old 5 iron, has much higher ball flight and is much easier to play with. I have tried 30 year old irons and they aren't very easy to hit.

No doubt that new clubs are easier to hit and I hit those 30 year old clubs when they were new and better than my old ones!  But every set makeup has the same lofts or very close to the original and calling an 8 iron a wedge does not make the game easier does it?  LOL here are the 'correct' lofts and iron numbers:

As I mentioned earlier in the end it makes no difference what number or name is on the club.  But there is no logical reason that I can see for loft jacking other than selling clubs that hit the ball farther than the old clubs.

[Titleist_PT23]

9 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Nice try.  I know of no one who thinks that.  

Nice try but not really true.  Look at all of the people here that need to "announce" they hit traditionally lofted clubs.  If they truly thought it was neither better or worse, they wouldn't need to say anything.

 

The dumbest thing of all is the people that "approve" of a jacked 45-47 degree PW but anything more than that is a crime.  I can have one GW but nothing more!

[dhappy42]

27 minutes ago, agolf1 said:

Nice try but not really true.  Look at all of the people here that need to "announce" they hit traditionally lofted clubs.  If they truly thought it was neither better or worse, they wouldn't need to say anything.

 

The dumbest thing of all is the people that "approve" of a jacked 45-47 degree PW but anything more than that is a crime.  I can have one GW but nothing more!

 

What are club manufacturers going to call the second gap wedge when they increase PW lofts to 40 degrees?

[Pepperturbo]

On 10/6/2021 at 6:09 PM, bekgolf said:

I think it's just marketing but still, some kind of standardization would be nice. 

Yes, it's marketing and design driven.  Maybe the fact that we have fourteen (14) clubs in the bag has something to do with 1-PW, later SW & LW were added.  Lofts vary per person, nothing standard about it.  

 

My 3-PW are considered more traditional lofts.  Whereas many people on this board play 1 - 3' stronger irons.  When we listen to a TV announcer talk about a tour guy using 8 iron, we know immediately its relationship to the rest of his irons; it's a short iron.  Imagine if the answer said he's using a 33' iron.  Everyone has a 6i, but not everyone has a 33' iron, mine's 31'. LOL 

 

Standardization = a simple generic # on sole of club.  Loft is specific like lie angle and FP.   Least that's how I see the topic.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[bekgolf]

29 minutes ago, dhappy42 said:

 

What are club manufacturers going to call the second gap wedge when they increase PW lofts to 40 degrees?

 

I've already seen it.  The set goes PW then AW and finally GW.  All used to be 8i, 9i, PW.

 

It doesn't really matter, it's just one of those things that sticks in my mind.  Kinda like how pickups used to be a 10 or 100 for the half ton model and now they are all 150 or 1500.  But, I digress.

[Titleist_PT23]

1 hour ago, dhappy42 said:

 

What are club manufacturers going to call the second gap wedge when they increase PW lofts to 40 degrees?

You are behind the times.  Titleist T400 has PW, W, W2.  I'm can't wait to upgrade when the new model comes out.  I hope they make the lofts stronger and I can get a W3 around 50* (right now, their W3 is 55*).

 

At the same time, I have two sets of 680s.  One with the traditional/stock lofts.  The other set I had re-chromed and re-numbered.  The PW is now 5-iron and the 4-iron is a 0.5 iron.

 

The thing is, all of the iron sets have clubs that fly between how far my 7W / 9W and "SW" fly.

 

 

[Bad9]

2 hours ago, dhappy42 said:

 

What are club manufacturers going to call the second gap wedge when they increase PW lofts to 40 degrees?

 

There have been sets with two gap wedges for 4-5 years. Titleist has had at least one set like that and I can't remember others but they are out there.

[Anser3]

I have not read all the posts in this thread.  So, I apologize if this has come up before.

 

The lofts idea is a great one.  Scratch golf did this. 

 

Manufacturers will not do this because it kills marketing (our 7 iron is longer than their 7 iron).  It also cuts into golfers' egos.  Player A  hits a 7 iron from his LatestandGreatest ABC iron set on his 130 yard approach shot.  His friend is hitting his Eye 2's and pulls a hard 5 iron or soft 6 iron to hit the same 130 yard approach.  Player A thinks he outhits his friend by 1-1.5 clubs.  He is oblivious to the fact that his 7 iron has 30 degrees of loft.  His friend's Eye 2 6 iron has 32 degrees of loft.  In Player A's mind, the only thing that matters is that he hits a 7 iron while his friend hits a 6 iron.  He is oblivious that his friend is actually longer than he is by hitting a  club with 2 more degrees of loft into the same green on the same 130-yard approach.  Having actual lofts stamped on the clubs destroys this illusion.

[NoTalentLefty]

13 hours ago, Anser3 said:

I have not read all the posts in this thread.  So, I apologize if this has come up before.

 

The lofts idea is a great one.  Scratch golf did this. 

 

Manufacturers will not do this because it kills marketing (our 7 iron is longer than their 7 iron).  It also cuts into golfers' egos.  Player A  hits a 7 iron from his LatestandGreatest ABC iron set on his 130 yard approach shot.  His friend is hitting his Eye 2's and pulls a hard 5 iron or soft 6 iron to hit the same 130 yard approach.  Player A thinks he outhits his friend by 1-1.5 clubs.  He is oblivious to the fact that his 7 iron has 30 degrees of loft.  His friend's Eye 2 6 iron has 32 degrees of loft.  In Player A's mind, the only thing that matters is that he hits a 7 iron while his friend hits a 6 iron.  He is oblivious that his friend is actually longer than he is by hitting a  club with 2 more degrees of loft into the same green on the same 130-yard approach.  Having actual lofts stamped on the clubs destroys this illusion.

True but why should anyone care ? Other than player B is all butt hurt about player A inflated ego. It’s pointless. Player B understands but his attitude should be I know why and not care. If player A says anything that insinuates he’s got more power. All player B has to say is check your lofts.  Most of the people I play with know about loft differences in iron sets . Never care what the other guy hits or what he hits. 

[Anser3]

5 hours ago, NoTalentLefty said:

True but why should anyone care ? Other than player B is all butt hurt about player A inflated ego. It’s pointless. Player B understands but his attitude should be I know why and not care. If player A says anything that insinuates he’s got more power. All player B has to say is check your lofts.  Most of the people I play with know about loft differences in iron sets . Never care what the other guy hits or what he hits. 

 

 

I agree with you 100%.  I couldn't care less either.  But not everyone thinks the same way we do  (I dare say a  majority of people don't). 

[dhappy42]

On 10/11/2021 at 8:24 PM, agolf1 said:

You are behind the times.  Titleist T400 has PW, W, W2.  I'm can't wait to upgrade when the new model comes out.  I hope they make the lofts stronger and I can get a W3 around 50* (right now, their W3 is 55*).

 

At the same time, I have two sets of 680s.  One with the traditional/stock lofts.  The other set I had re-chromed and re-numbered.  The PW is now 5-iron and the 4-iron is a 0.5 iron.

 

The thing is, all of the iron sets have clubs that fly between how far my 7W / 9W and "SW" fly.

 

 

I am indeed behind the times. Sooner or later, iron sets will be 7-8-9-P-GW-AW-BW-CW-SW-LW, with the 7 iron lofted at 24 degrees like a 1960s 3 iron. 

[Blaiser]

On the course, I agree it's a helluva lot easier to just have a single number stamped on the club. And I really couldn't care less if another players club has a significantly different loft than mine.

 

Where I do see a use case is for demo heads. If I demo some new irons, it would be great to have the lofts stamped on them so I don't have to pull out my phone and Google everything.

 

It's tough to figure out the gapping, launch angles, spin rates....etc when you have no idea if you're hitting a 28* 7 iron or a 34* 7 iron. Really hard to determine if the club is spinning lower than my current 7 iron due to the loft or not.

[sheamclkel]

Standardizing would be to easy ahaha. The loft stamped on would make fitters lives easier for sure