Idea - Guaranteed 4 hour Round or your money back.

[Imp]

1 hour ago, ALo314 said:

It still baffles me that people in golf carts can't (or won't???) play in 4-ish hours.

 

We walk huge courses in 4 hrs with stacked tee times.

Generally, they wait for one to hit, then drive, and then start everything over again for the other rider. Exactly the wrong thing to do (unless the other player is further down, or in the way)

Everyone needs their own carts to go to their own ball. Most don't get the "park the cart in the middle" and walk to the balls, or park at one and then walk to the other.

 

Worst, ever, is "cart path only" on a course where carts are mandatory. 

 

Edited October 8, 2021 by Imp

[deadsolid...shank]

I would absolutely play there. Anyplace that is actively trying to do something positive about POP  is worth patronizing. I think it has to be done with really good marshaling. And make sure everyone knows before they start what is going to be occuring out there. Problem is, after working in the shop for a few years and mentioning pace to players, EVERYONE thinks they play fast.  Wish I had a dollar for every time I’ve been told, “oh we play fast, it won’t be a problem”.  
 

[cristphoto]

On 10/7/2021 at 7:44 PM, 2bGood said:

No, but I would not lose $50 as I would finish within 15min of the group in front of me.

 

That is the key - I said you finish under 4 hours OR within 15min of the group in front of you. If the group in-front is slow, you should have no trouble finishing with 15min. If they are fast then you have to make sure you are under 4hrs. Either way you are in control wether you meet the pace requirement. 

 

But wouldn't you simply break even?  Where is your reward for fast play?  Additionally rangers need to be better trained.  I remember playing as a foursome and were on the 13th fairway of a par five.  We were playing behind a threesome and were waiting for the green to clear as it was reachable.  Three of us went for the green and one laid up. When he hit his third shot the ranger showed up and told us we had to pick up the pace as the group in front was already in the next fairway.  We told him we were 4 right on the tail of a 3 after 13 holes and they should be pulling away.  He wouldn't hear it.  

[caniac6]

19 minutes ago, cristphoto said:

 

But wouldn't you simply break even?  Where is your reward for fast play?  Additionally rangers need to be better trained.  I remember playing as a foursome and were on the 13th fairway of a par five.  We were playing behind a threesome and were waiting for the green to clear as it was reachable.  Three of us went for the green and one laid up. When he hit his third shot the ranger showed up and told us we had to pick up the pace as the group in front was already in the next fairway.  We told him we were 4 right on the tail of a 3 after 13 holes and they should be pulling away.  He wouldn't hear it.  

You were interrupting his ball search.

[CDM]

So not sure posted but why not make every player provide ID (drivers license or equal for each player) when they check in, if they play slow just ban them.   If you have it listed on the website / booking / pro shop that all players are expected to keep pace, if you fall behind you have to skip a hole and if you dont will be banned from the course.

 

Sounds harsh, but think how many people would want to play that course.  Knowing everyone has the same mind set and the key one courtesy to other ...!   You know you dont have to worry about 5 hour rounds.

 

 

[mallrat]

First off, at it’s core, not a bad idea. Now practicality, HORRIBLE. 

 

First, is it a 4 hour course? There are plenty of courses I know of that even when cruising, you are not finishing under 4 hrs. Just the effects of routing and the course. You can get 4 1/2 but 4 is not really practical or enjoyable. 
 

Next, this would be a nightmare for the marshalls. Imagine how many people are still going to try and play through, hit into and just utterly disregard others on the course. 
 

Last I just don’t see this as a sustainable business model. The majority of your mid-week, mid-day rounds are not from golfers concerned with playing under 4 hours. The retired crowd generally is just out having an enjoyable day. 
 

My course (don’t own one but an Asst. Super) averages 4:10 - 4:20. We use 2 Marshall’s on weekends and high traffic days. We are on pace to average about 67,000 rounds this year, last year we did over 70k and it was too much for the course, so we went from 10 to 12 minutes between tee times and it actually sped up play. 
 

I don’t see why 4 hours is this magical number. So 3:58 is enjoyable but 4:12 is too long? Don’t get me wrong, I want to play in 4 - 4:15 but there are so many factors involved. 
 

Also, what does those speeds do for morning maintenance?

[puttnforthe8]

On 10/7/2021 at 5:35 AM, SBGolferMichael said:

What do you think about this:  I own a public golf course. One of the most complained about things in golf is slow play.

 

My potential differentiator for my golf course:  We guarantee that you will finish your round in less than four hours, or we will refund your money for the round, and buy you a beer on your way out.

 

How do I keep this promise?  Easy:

1. In all of my ads, I tell people that this is a 4 hour or less per round golf course. If you like the idea, come join us.  If you do not, that is okay too.

2. When people book a tee time, whether in person, or online, they are told about the 4 hour rule - and told that it is because we love a reasonably fast round, and we know they do too. We let people know that we have systems in place to ensure their satisfaction regarding the 4 hour pace.

3. We record when your group tees off.  You have, on average 13.3 minutes to pay each hole.

There are three marshals that help play move right along. They are very nice, and very firm. If you fall behind by X amount of minutes, a marshal will politely inform you to pick up the pace. Stage 2 of slow play, you will be instructed to pick up your balls and move to the next tee box.

4. If there is any push back or snotty behavior toward the marshal in the face of this type of support, you will be told to leave, and that you will have your money refunded to you.

5. Stage 3 - continued slow play - bye bye. Nicely informed to leave - money refunded and beer bought for you on your way out.

 

The details may differ, but you get the picture.

 

My thought is that 5 or 10% of golfers will come and play thinking that these rules for participation are only a suggestion, and then be outraged when they are told to leave the course for breaking the rules of which they were duly informed.

 

My other thought is that my golf course will be packed to the gills with smiling golfers who realize how easy it is to play a four hour or less round, and know that they will never have to complain about a slow round at this course ever again.

 

Your thoughts?  Viable idea, or not?  Would you come play somewhere with this offer?

 

IMO, this doesn't seem saavy from a business standpoint.

 

Since you are an owner of a course, I will pitch you my idea/s, 1 harder than the other - but both based on the premise reward good POP:

1.  This one is simple:  Charge a rate that you feel is correct (another discussion) - then either refund or even better give some credit for their next round commensurate with their finishing time.  So under 3:45 50% off, 4 30% off, etc.  
2. The 2nd is harder - it combines some of #1; but also those with healthy/fast POP performance are rewarded with prime tee times.  The logistics are players that come to your club and get a SBG Players Card.  It tracks your POP.  If you meet POP goals - you get rewards, like #1 or discounts or prizes, etc.  BUT on top of that, it enables you to get prime tee times.  So if Player 123 is consistently under 4hrs, they get any tee time they want.  If Player 987 is consistently 4:30+, they get only afternoon times (and NGTF times certain times of the year).  If Player 123 plays with Player 987, he is not going to want to lose his primo status and will ensure 987 keeps up.  In turn, 987s POP will improve and he will hopefully see the benefits and will in turn improve.  Sidenote:  if one group (maybe newbies) hold up a group that is decent, that group is not penalized because you know that the 1st group caused the delay.

 

Anyways - I have thought about these a bit and believe something like this will work.  Then it would take only a few early adopter courses to follow along to end up with a "state-wide" players POP card.  In the end, everyone is welcome to play - you just get to play at the times you deserve.

1.  

[mallrat]

Let me throw this out there, Tuesday we were too dressing. Not a quick process but we had an hour and half head start on play. Well you have to let the sand dry but we never have time for that. First group caught our guys on 9/18 (it is a GIANT split green). Played the front 9 in hour and 10 minutes. Then we’re then mad because they couldn’t play through because every green had sand on it but they still played in 2 hrs and 45 minutes. 
 

So what do you do with course maintenance?

[Bonneville85308]

43 minutes ago, mallrat said:

Let me throw this out there, Tuesday we were too dressing. Not a quick process but we had an hour and half head start on play. Well you have to let the sand dry but we never have time for that. First group caught our guys on 9/18 (it is a GIANT split green). Played the front 9 in hour and 10 minutes. Then we’re then mad because they couldn’t play through because every green had sand on it but they still played in 2 hrs and 45 minutes. 
 

So what do you do with course maintenance?

 

I am actually seeing some high-volume courses start to do certain maintenance work like fairway/rough mowing late in the day, when the course has few people on it, especially the front nine. One has a guy that doesn't start work until like 3pm and he mows whatever holes he can that don't have people on them.  These are courses that start sending 18-hole players off #1 and 9-hole players off #10 as soon as there is enough light to see. They are changing holes and mowing most of the greens in the dark using mowers with headlights. If one course I am familiar with has a more intensive maintenance operation like topdressing or aeration, they will schedule it for the two deadest days of the week (Tuesday and Wednesday), say no 9-holer play off the opposite nine those days, start everyone on #1 on Tuesday while they work on the back, start everyone on #10 Wednesday while they work on the front, and start tee times an hour later than usual on those days. Also the starter will warn the first few groups, if they play faster than a 3 hour/18 hole pace, they are going to run into maintenance on their second nine and won't be let through.

[jallen0119]

On 10/8/2021 at 3:42 PM, ALo314 said:

It still baffles me that people in golf carts can't (or won't???) play in 4-ish hours.

 

We walk huge courses in 4 hrs with stacked tee times.

 

 

Just about any "slow" golfer I encounter, almost always has a cart. 

 

A guy I play with regularly is one of the worst. When I play with him, he will drive to his ball first (I am typically longer off the tee than him) and he gets upset if I walk up to my ball (to get my yardage, assess my shot, etc.), even if I am nowhere near his line of play. Plus, he has no problem tossing down another ball if he hits a bad shot (he will play the first, but trying to figure out what he did wrong). We were playing in a tourney and he refused to hit his shot until the other two guys playing in our group moved back. They were about 25 yards to his right and about 5 or 10 yards in front of him. My buddy would had to have hit a power shank that went dead right off of the hosel to get anywhere near them, and he's a pretty decent player (breaks 80 on a regular basis). 

[ALo314]

2 hours ago, jallen0119 said:

Just about any "slow" golfer I encounter, almost always has a cart. 

 

A guy I play with regularly is one of the worst. When I play with him, he will drive to his ball first (I am typically longer off the tee than him) and he gets upset if I walk up to my ball (to get my yardage, assess my shot, etc.), even if I am nowhere near his line of play. Plus, he has no problem tossing down another ball if he hits a bad shot (he will play the first, but trying to figure out what he did wrong). We were playing in a tourney and he refused to hit his shot until the other two guys playing in our group moved back. They were about 25 yards to his right and about 5 or 10 yards in front of him. My buddy would had to have hit a power shank that went dead right off of the hosel to get anywhere near them, and he's a pretty decent player (breaks 80 on a regular basis). 

I bet that gets pretty frustrating.

[StudentGolfer4]

16 hours ago, jallen0119 said:

Just about any "slow" golfer I encounter, almost always has a cart. 

 

A guy I play with regularly is one of the worst. When I play with him, he will drive to his ball first (I am typically longer off the tee than him) and he gets upset if I walk up to my ball (to get my yardage, assess my shot, etc.), even if I am nowhere near his line of play. Plus, he has no problem tossing down another ball if he hits a bad shot (he will play the first, but trying to figure out what he did wrong). We were playing in a tourney and he refused to hit his shot until the other two guys playing in our group moved back. They were about 25 yards to his right and about 5 or 10 yards in front of him. My buddy would had to have hit a power shank that went dead right off of the hosel to get anywhere near them, and he's a pretty decent player (breaks 80 on a regular basis). 

Absolutely love the term power shank!

[PixlPutterman]

I think you are MUCH better off placing the incentive on fast play rather than a reward slow play.

 

"If your group finishes in under 3:30 get a coupon for half off greens fees or something.

 

WAY TO EASY to abuse the 4 hour rule and one semi slow group will domino the rest of the day and you'll be giving out free rounds left and right.

 

Of course you'll still get complaints from guys perfectly capable of a 3 hour round sitting behind a group that doesn't care about your promotion playing a 5 hour round...

Edited October 18, 2021 by PixlPutterman

[PixlPutterman]

Or just require a GHIN to play and on the weekends only let single caps play.....

[caniac6]

7 hours ago, PixlPutterman said:

Or just require a GHIN to play and on the weekends only let single caps play.....

That is no guarantee of fast play.

[PixlPutterman]

2 hours ago, caniac6 said:

That is no guarantee of fast play.

Its not, but statistically the better the golfer the faster the round.

[caniac6]

1 hour ago, PixlPutterman said:

Its not, but statistically the better the golfer the faster the round.

I've played with plenty of slow low handicappers. We have a guy in our group that is like a human rain delay with his pre shot routine.

[nlinneman20]

On 10/7/2021 at 8:27 AM, NJBigFish22 said:

I like the idea.  People will try to game the system.  I wouldn’t give away free beer either.  If someone has been drinking on the course and gets in an accident your free beer will bankrupt you.  Here are my thoughts all based on 18 holes.  9 holes equals half the time.

 

1) develop an app that players download and keeps track of time.  If they are falling behind you send an alert.

2) if they come in within the 4 hours they get refunded 25% of their green fee. Or they can take 50% off their restaurant/bar tab.

3) if a player fails to complete 3 rounds in a row under the 4 hours, they will be escorted by a marshal who will have the right to tell them to end a hole without finishing out and can be removed from the course.

4) if a group of 2 or more finishes under 3 hours 15 minutes, they get an incentive like free golf shirt, 1 month of free range balls or 1/2 price rounds for a month. 

 

Also so where is this course located?  

 

I believe its Whistling that all their caddies have cell phones, the clubhouse tracks them all, if they are slow they get a call saying 'tell your golfers to pick it up'

 

I didnt play there, just saw a story on Whistling (I think) that they were talking about all this technology.  If it wasnt whistling it was some course 'up north'

 

Also how is a accident from a free beer any diff than one from beer purchased?

[PixlPutterman]

1 hour ago, caniac6 said:

I've played with plenty of slow low handicappers. We have a guy in our group that is like a human rain delay with his pre shot routine.

As have I, but a 30 second pre shot routine is a lot quicker than a 5 minute ball search,

 

virtually every slow round I have had has been behind a group that can get off the tee box, nor find their ball in the woods.

[Soloman1]

My bizarre sense of humor tells me that the original poster is long gone, put in place the "kick 'em to the curb" plan and the course is now being bulldozed for apartments.

[Abh159]

16 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

My bizarre sense of humor tells me that the original poster is long gone, put in place the "kick 'em to the curb" plan and the course is now being bulldozed for apartments.

 

These apartments will most likely refund your rent/deposit if you break your lease and move out early. 

[nlinneman20]

1 hour ago, PixlPutterman said:

As have I, but a 30 second pre shot routine is a lot quicker than a 5 minute ball search,

 

virtually every slow round I have had has been behind a group that can get off the tee box, nor find their ball in the woods.

 

Look at DeChambeau....every drive of his takes a full min before hes done waggling

[PixlPutterman]

47 minutes ago, nlinneman20 said:

 

Look at DeChambeau....every drive of his takes a full min before hes done waggling

or like 5 seconds.

 

Ill take a course full of DeChambeau's over one full of 18 caps, playing from the wrong tee boxes, spending 5 minutes looking for balls, and waiting for the greens to clear from 270+, then rehitting the putt they had no idea how to read the first time

[NJBigFish22]

6 hours ago, nlinneman20 said:

 

I believe its Whistling that all their caddies have cell phones, the clubhouse tracks them all, if they are slow they get a call saying 'tell your golfers to pick it up'

 

I didnt play there, just saw a story on Whistling (I think) that they were talking about all this technology.  If it wasnt whistling it was some course 'up north'

 

Also how is a accident from a free beer any diff than one from beer purchased?

If you buy the beer and get in an accident you can’t sue the store that sold it, you made a decision to buy and then drive.  If someone, more specifically a business gives you free drinks they can become liable.

[mallrat]

15 hours ago, PixlPutterman said:

Its not, but statistically the better the golfer the faster the round.

Can you provide a link to those stats?

[PixlPutterman]

Link? It's math.

 

What takes more time, hitting 95 shots or 75 shots?

Edited October 19, 2021 by PixlPutterman

[handyquacks17]

I think a good idea is to remove all white stakes from your course and make sure you have red stakes in places where golfers normally lose balls.

 

This forces the player to drop and pace of play improves. I coached high school golf for years, and the pace of play improved dramatically when I created local rules that took white stakes out of play. Just a thought. 100 percent do not give away free beer. 

 

Encourage ready golf and keep the rough low, and pace will improve

[RmoorePE]

I don't think you want a written policy (too many ways to game it), but you should arm the rangers/starters/pro with gift cards or coins that reward fast players. I.e. you establish that you are a course that encourages fast play, and have the starters reinforce it during their spiel. Have them say "If we catch you keeping up good POP you might get a reward."

 

Then have the rangers or starters armed with gift cards or something where they can drive up to a group and be like "Hey I noticed you guys are doing a good job staying with the group ahead, here is $20 you can spend at the turn", or "Hey your group finished front nine in 1:45 here is $20 for the snack shack" etc. They don't have to give it to everybody, but do it enough times in a day and word will get out that your course rewards fast players and maybe build a culture of it among the members and guests. Maybe only do this on weekends, or just on crowded days.

 

A further bonus is that if you gave my group a $20 gift card for beer, we would definitely spend it and tip the $20 to the person working the snack shack or beer cart.

[nlinneman20]

15 hours ago, NJBigFish22 said:

If you buy the beer and get in an accident you can’t sue the store that sold it, you made a decision to buy and then drive.  If someone, more specifically a business gives you free drinks they can become liable.

 

Really? Bartenders/Bars are never held responsible for over serving?  Or are those drinks free?

 

What about golf outings?  I know you pay for the price of the 'outing' but drinks are always provided and you can drink till your hearts content.  Same premise here, guy pays for a round, gets a free beer.

[sabram]

5 hours ago, nlinneman20 said:

 

Really? Bartenders/Bars are never held responsible for over serving?  Or are those drinks free?

 

What about golf outings?  I know you pay for the price of the 'outing' but drinks are always provided and you can drink till your hearts content.  Same premise here, guy pays for a round, gets a free beer.

Bars can certainly be held liable if they sell or give  drinks to someone who is intoxicated and that person causes harm to persons or property. The details and extent of liability varies to some extent state by state, but such liability has long been established under what are called "dram shop laws".