Difference between a Juniors low score and their high score.

[tiger1873]

Most people do not like to talk about this but setting realistic expectations is the first step in how you can improve your kid.  If they show fits and have major blow ups they do not deserve to play.

 

I think this is worse with girls than boys but over the years we seen some moody girls that should have been pulled.  In one case the Tournament director threatened to DQ one for unsportsmanlike conduct if they didn't wd.   Can't stand that stuff they hurt the whole group they play with.

 

As you travel for tournaments I think it fair to put expectations on their performance.  make sure you have realistic numbers. I add 5 or 10 points to their worst score in the last year.   I can gurantee if your kid likes golf they find a way to keep playing in a tournament. Doesn't matter if equipment breaks, bad playing partners or just plain bad weather. They stop making excuses and just flat figure a way to make it happen.

 

[cwilk]

29 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

This is not true if you have a good excuse no one cares if you drop out.  For example if a top 100 player is having a bad day and it's in the 90's it's pretty obvious something is not right.   Players drop out all the time do to valid reasons at every level. If you play enough tournaments eventually you have to WD from one once in a while.

 

If your kid is having a blow up day that makes you wonder did they even practice you should withdraw them because your not helping their mental game.

 

 

It’s 100% true and easily searched if you’d like to spend any effort whatsoever. I first learned it from Golf Placement Services and then found just about every resource agrees. 
 

Here’s what AJGA has to say about it:

 

”What junior golfers may not know is that college coaches pay particularly close attention to those who try to “manage rankings” via withdrawing from tournaments or “no-carding” after bad rounds. They frown upon these actions and often stop recruiting a player if there is a pattern of this behavior. Coaches know that their players will struggle at times in college events and therefore will expect them to have what it takes to manage their game and emotions in an attempt to shoot the lowest score they possibly can on a given day. Quitting or withdrawing (unless there is a legitimate injury or illness) is not an option at the collegiate level.

Instead of withdrawing, juniors who post high first round scores should realize that they have an opportunity to make a great comeback in subsequent rounds. Most college coaches look at how players bounce back after poor rounds, trying to sign recruits who have the skills required to post low scores after a bad performance in a prior round. In college tournaments, where teams often play 36 holes in one day, mental toughness and perseverance is just as important as raw golf talent!”

[tiger1873]

13 minutes ago, cwilk said:

It’s 100% true and easily searched if you’d like to spend any effort whatsoever. I first learned it from Golf Placement Services and then found just about every resource agrees. 
 

Here’s what AJGA has to say about it:

 

”What junior golfers may not know is that college coaches pay particularly close attention to those who try to “manage rankings” via withdrawing from tournaments or “no-carding” after bad rounds. They frown upon these actions and often stop recruiting a player if there is a pattern of this behavior. Coaches know that their players will struggle at times in college events and therefore will expect them to have what it takes to manage their game and emotions in an attempt to shoot the lowest score they possibly can on a given day. Quitting or withdrawing (unless there is a legitimate injury or illness) is not an option at the collegiate level.

Instead of withdrawing, juniors who post high first round scores should realize that they have an opportunity to make a great comeback in subsequent rounds. Most college coaches look at how players bounce back after poor rounds, trying to sign recruits who have the skills required to post low scores after a bad performance in a prior round. In college tournaments, where teams often play 36 holes in one day, mental toughness and perseverance is just as important as raw golf talent!”

 

 

Sure there going to say this.  They don't want half the field to drop out because they're not winning.  But there is no reason to keep playing if a player is hurt or something is really wrong. You are not doing anyone a favor and everyone has dropped out a few tournaments.   

 

I am not talking about kids who drop out for no reason. They are talking about managing rankings which is not the same thing. If you do that it will be pretty obvious when someone looks at the scores.

Edited October 13, 2021 by tiger1873

[cwilk]

45 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

 

Sure there going to say this.  They don't want half the field to drop out because they're not winning.  But there is no reason to keep playing if a player is hurt or something is really wrong. You are not doing anyone a favor and everyone has dropped out a few tournaments.   

 

I am not talking about kids who drop out for no reason. They are talking about managing rankings which is not the same thing. If you do that it will be pretty obvious when someone looks at the scores.

You literally just said a good player shooting in the 90's should drop out because they must not have practiced and that the tournament would be bad for their mental game.  That is not a valid excuse to withdrawal. No tournament player should have more than a few WD ever and they should always be due to injury/illness.  I'm sure other leagues do this, but the STPGA has two indicators for WD's; one for injury/illness that is consider "excused" and a generic WD which most people frown upon.  My son has a WD, but only 1, and because his foot was fractured and we didn't know it until after.  He broke it earlier in the week and we were hoping it was something less serious, but it became obvious after a few holes of walking that he couldn't play.  X-ray's afterward revealed the fracture.

 

Either way, I don't think we are seeing eye to eye here, so good luck to your kid.

Edited October 13, 2021 by cwilk

[tiger1873]

12 minutes ago, cwilk said:

You literally just said a good player shooting in the 90's should drop out because they must not have practiced and that the tournament would be bad for their mental game.  That is not a valid excuse to withdrawal. No tournament player should have more than a few WD ever and they should always be due to injury/illness.  I'm sure other leagues do this, but the STPGA has two indicators for WD's; one for injury/illness that is consider "excused" and a generic WD which most people frown upon.  My son has a WD, but only 1, and because his foot was fractured and we didn't know it until after.  He broke it earlier in the week and we were hoping it was something less serious, but it became obvious after a few holes of walking that he couldn't play.  X-ray's afterward revealed the fracture.

 

Either way, I don't think we are seeing eye to eye here, so good luck to your kid.

 

 

This is because a good player doesn't shoot in the 90's unless there is something very wrong and very out of character for their play. 

 

I seen kids who are ok players but end up shooting 110-120 because they just do not care about their score anymore.  It not fun to paired with that person.  It better they drop out and a lot more respectful to drop out and let everyone else play.  

[heavy_hitter]

1 hour ago, tiger1873 said:

 

This is not true if you have a good excuse no one cares if you drop out.  For example if a top 100 player is having a bad day and it's in the 90's it's pretty obvious something is not right.   Players drop out all the time do to valid reasons at every level. If you play enough tournaments eventually you have to WD from one once in a while.

 

If your kid is having a blow up day that makes you wonder did they even practice you should withdraw them because your not helping their mental game.

 

 

I can tell you this is false and it is right out of several college coaches mouths.

[ncalgolf]

reading these post makes me want to stop having my daughter playing tournament golf

[Wasted_Talent]

5 hours ago, heavy_hitter said:

I can tell you this is false and it is right out of several college coaches mouths.

 

Agreed.  After talking to several college coaches following my Godchild.  They all said attitude and behavior are incredibly important.  If you quit it is not taken well.

[RobS]

4 hours ago, heavy_hitter said:

I can tell you this is false and it is right out of several college coaches mouths.

I've heard the same.  WD over scores is a bad look.  WD and a coach may think you quit when things aren't going your way.  Post an embarrassing score and follow it up with a solid bounce back score and it shows that you have some resilience.  Ideally, you can manage your score card on an off day but these are juniors and many aren't quite there yet.  I've heard a lot of different thing from different coaches but what's universal is that they all want character and consistent attitude.  If you're a quitter or lack composure, that's a major turnoff.  

[leezer99]

8 hours ago, Gawbage_man said:

 

Agreed.  After talking to several college coaches following my Godchild.  They all said attitude and behavior are incredibly important.  If you quit it is not taken well.

All coaches say attitude and behavior are important because that’s what they have to say. Shoot a bunch of tournament rounds in the 60’s and those things are overlooked. 

[Wasted_Talent]

7 hours ago, leezer99 said:

All coaches say attitude and behavior are important because that’s what they have to say. Shoot a bunch of tournament rounds in the 60’s and those things are overlooked. 

Not really there is a local kid that plays very well.  He is not getting near the attention from coaches, why?  His attitude is crap.  He is fine when playing well, but when he is not his nattitude is terrible.  He will quit on his round and his interaction with his parents are very disrespectful.  

[heavy_hitter]

9 hours ago, leezer99 said:

All coaches say attitude and behavior are important because that’s what they have to say. Shoot a bunch of tournament rounds in the 60’s and those things are overlooked. 

 

Junior in Florida just committed to a D1 in the state.  They were recruiting another kid on his HS team that is a shade better.  Saw behavior in a tournament they didn't like and dropped him from their radar while offering the other kid.

[Wasted_Talent]

6 minutes ago, heavy_hitter said:

 

Junior in Florida just committed to a D1 in the state.  They were recruiting another kid on his HS team that is a shade better.  Saw behavior in a tournament they didn't like and dropped him from their radar while offering the other kid.

 

 

The Georgia Tech assistant coach told me the interaction between the player and his parents tell him a lot about the kid.

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

On 10/13/2021 at 10:03 AM, tiger1873 said:

 

 

This is because a good player doesn't shoot in the 90's unless there is something very wrong and very out of character for their play. 

 

I seen kids who are ok players but end up shooting 110-120 because they just do not care about their score anymore.  It not fun to paired with that person.  It better they drop out and a lot more respectful to drop out and let everyone else play.  

Never ok to WD because of a bad score or scoring.  If the player is WD'ing bc of scores then that's a discussion the parents and player can have at a later time. 

 

Example: if its an AJGA event and its the second day and you're on your way to a 104 but you wanna quit.  That is your last AJGA event of the year I promise.  Might be your last event of the year.

 

Ask a college coach during the unofficial visit how many WD do you get per year?

 

Coaches IMHO don't really wanna know how you respond when you are shooting 68-72.  What do you look like when a round is upside down.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by TripleBogeysrbetter

[tiger1873]

10 hours ago, leezer99 said:

All coaches say attitude and behavior are important because that’s what they have to say. Shoot a bunch of tournament rounds in the 60’s and those things are overlooked. 

 

I agree with this what coaches preach and actually recruit is whole different story.  If they think you are going win tournaments playing for them they will bend over backwards for someone.

 

Half the time they tell you what you want to hear.

 

 

[leezer99]

2 hours ago, Gawbage_man said:

 

 

The Georgia Tech assistant coach told me the interaction between the player and his parents tell him a lot about the kid.

If your job is to win then you’re a fool to pick a player shooting in the 70’s versus one that shoots in the 60’s. 

[Wasted_Talent]

25 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

If your job is to win then you’re a fool to pick a player shooting in the 70’s versus one that shoots in the 60’s. 

 

 

I would take a good teammate that shoots in the low 70s every time vs. a bad teammate that will shoot 85 every time he has a rough start.  Even worse is one that will W/D.

 

I am just telling you what numerous coaches have told me and what I have seen happen in real life.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Gawbage_man

[tiger1873]

27 minutes ago, Gawbage_man said:

 

 

I would take a good teammate that shoots in the low 70s every time vs. a bad teammate that will shoot 85 every time he has a rough start.  Even worse is one that will W/D.

 

I am just telling you what numerous coaches have told me and what I have seen happen in real life.

 

Kids who shoot in the 60's and lets face it that is what every college coach wants is almost certainly not lazy and doesn't have attitude problems. They just go out and play.

 

It's not hard to spot. Go watch a bunch kids who can play and then see the other kids behind them.  They treat the better players different then the ones staying at home on reserve.   You don't want to be the player that stays home every week either.

Edited October 14, 2021 by tiger1873

[leezer99]

2 hours ago, Gawbage_man said:

 

 

I would take a good teammate that shoots in the low 70s every time vs. a bad teammate that will shoot 85 every time he has a rough start.  Even worse is one that will W/D.

 

I am just telling you what numerous coaches have told me and what I have seen happen in real life.

 

Who's talking about kids that shoot in the mid 80's?  I'm talking about a kid that shoots in the 60's with a bad attitude.  The attitude will be overlooked.  

 

Lot of people forgetting that a coach's job rides on the shoulders of 18-22 year olds.  They just need kids that put up low rounds and have enough sense to get passing grades.

[cwilk]

4 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

 

Who's talking about kids that shoot in the mid 80's?  I'm talking about a kid that shoots in the 60's with a bad attitude.  The attitude will be overlooked.  

 

Lot of people forgetting that a coach's job rides on the shoulders of 18-22 year olds.  They just need kids that put up low rounds and have enough sense to get passing grades.

I think you are right to an extent, but when the difference is a few strokes the coach is going with the easier option (the kid with the good attitude). That’s coming from Golf Placement Services who are ran by a former college coach and interact regularly with all of the big school coaches. 
 

Another factor to consider is high school GPA and SAT scores. The coaches want to know the kid isn’t going to have issues with eligibility either. 

[Wasted_Talent]

11 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

 

Who's talking about kids that shoot in the mid 80's?  I'm talking about a kid that shoots in the 60's with a bad attitude.  The attitude will be overlooked.  

 

 

 

I am talking about the kid that can shoot in the 60s, but has a tough start and quits on his round.  He just doesn't care and fires an 80 or something.

 

I am not here to argue.  Enjoy.

[tiger1873]

4 minutes ago, cwilk said:

I think you are right to an extent, but when the difference is a few strokes the coach is going with the easier option (the kid with the good attitude). That’s coming from Golf Placement Services who are ran by a former college coach and interact regularly with all of the big school coaches. 
 

Another factor to consider is high school GPA and SAT scores. The coaches want to know the kid isn’t going to have issues with eligibility either. 

 

A kid who can shoot in the 60's is a rare commodity.  Even more so in college golf because they can earn a Million Dollars a week.    If you're a coach lucky enough to grab one of them as freshman you might win a national championship.   

[tiger1873]

1 minute ago, Gawbage_man said:

 

I am talking about the kid that can shoot in the 60s, but has a tough start and quits on his round.  He just doesn't care and fires an 80 or something.

 

I am not here to argue.  Enjoy.

 

He doesn't shoot in the 60's then those high rounds in the 80's kills his average.  This what people do not understand.  Those high rounds means they not a complete player. A complete player does not have those rounds.

[Wasted_Talent]

7 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

 A complete player does not have those rounds.

 

Somebody alert John Daly that someone on the internet doesn't think he is a complete player.

[RobS]

17 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

He doesn't shoot in the 60's then those high rounds in the 80's kills his average.  This what people do not understand.  Those high rounds means they not a complete player. A complete player does not have those rounds.

4 of the top 10 AJGA ranked boys have tournament rounds in the 80's this season.  Texas, Auburn, UVA commits and 1 underclassman.

[RobS]

The top 3 ranked AJGA Boys have tournament scoring 70.x.  Most of the kids in the top 100 have a scoring average of between 70.x and 72.x.  It's not like college coaches are deciding between a kid that has a scoring average of 70 and one that has a 75 scoring average.  The coaches are looking at groups of kids that are probably within a 0 to 1 shot of each other on the stat sheet.  That's why it's so important to differentiate yourself by having a great attitude and a great academic record.  What coach wants to deal with a temperamental kid when there a bunch of other kids in the country that can play a similar level of golf but will be a better team member?

[RobS]

1 hour ago, cwilk said:

I think you are right to an extent, but when the difference is a few strokes the coach is going with the easier option (the kid with the good attitude). That’s coming from Golf Placement Services who are ran by a former college coach and interact regularly with all of the big school coaches. 
 

Another factor to consider is high school GPA and SAT scores. The coaches want to know the kid isn’t going to have issues with eligibility either. 

I agree with this but with one adjustment.  The coaches are usually deciding between kids with a difference of 0 to maybe 2 strokes.  That's why attitude, personality, character, etc is so important unless you happen to be the next Tiger, DJ or Spieth.  Academics are also important.  College coaches really want kids that could gain admission without golf.  Golf isn't like football where the coach gets practically unlimited academic exceptions.  If you don't have the grades, you better be a player that will be one of the top 2 or 3 players on the team as the coach isn't going to want to waste an exception with admissions on a kid that might not impact the program.  Better yet, be a kid that can get academic money to free up some of the golf scholarship money for other players.

[cwilk]

2 hours ago, tiger1873 said:

 

He doesn't shoot in the 60's then those high rounds in the 80's kills his average.  This what people do not understand.  Those high rounds means they not a complete player. A complete player does not have those rounds.

Max Homa is the current leader for scoring average (only 1 event) and had multiple 78’s last season. DJ was #2 after Rahm for 2021 and has a 77 and 78 carded. That’s just the 1st two I looked at in less than a minute of searching. There are numerous PGA Tour players that have shot occasional rounds in the high 70’s and a few with rounds in the 80’s. 

[tiger1873]

48 minutes ago, cwilk said:

Max Homa is the current leader for scoring average (only 1 event) and had multiple 78’s last season. DJ was #2 after Rahm for 2021 and has a 77 and 78 carded. That’s just the 1st two I looked at in less than a minute of searching. There are numerous PGA Tour players that have shot occasional rounds in the high 70’s and a few with rounds in the 80’s. 

 

The true averages for the top on PGA tours are extremely low  most likely in the 60’s.

 

you literally looking at there worst scores and they do not expect to score a round in the high 70's.  There usually means something went wrong.  
 

it obvious you did not understand my original question because you seem to think hi and low scores means what is the expected score.

 

The odds of a golfer who averages mid 80's scoring below par are very low.   But maybe you think moving up a few tees and playing an easy executive course with a low score means you can go play on the pga

[cwilk]

25 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

The true averages for the top on PGA tours are extremely low  most likely in the 60’s.

 

you literally looking at there worst scores and they do not expect to score a round in the high 70's.  There usually means something went wrong.  
 

it obvious you did not understand my original question because you seem to think hi and low scores means what is the expected score.

 

The odds of a golfer who averages mid 80's scoring below par are very low.   But maybe you think moving up a few tees and playing an easy executive course with a low score means you can go play on the pga

No, I think you are oblivious. 

Edited October 14, 2021 by cwilk