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46 Inch + Drivers on Tour


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Lets look at the length of the course, winning score, and 36 hole cut (this shows how tough the course is for the avg player)

 

2021 - Torrey Pines, John Rahm -6 (Par 71), 7685, +4

2020 - Winged Foot, Bryson Dechambeau -6 (Par 70), 7477, +6

2019 - Pebble Beach, Gary Woodland -13 (Par 71), 7075, +2

2018 - Shinnecock, Brooks Koepka +1 (Par 70), 7440, +8

2017 - Erin Hills, Brooks Koepka -16 (Par 72), 7741, +1

2016 - Oakmont, Dustin Johnson -4 (Par 70), 7254, +6

2015 - Chambers Bay, Jordan Spieth -5 (Par 70), 7384 to 7695*, +5

2014 - Pinehurst, Martin Kaymer -9 (Par 70), 7562, +5

2013 - Merion, Justin Rose +1 (Par 70), 6996, +8

2012 - Olympic, Webb Simpson +1 (Par 70), 7170, +8

2011 - Congressional, Rory Mcilroy -16 (Par 71), 7574, +4

*thats what Wikipedia said 

 

Last 11 US Open, 7 of these US Open were Par 70s (made this should be standard of a US Open, just a thought)

 

Some could make the case that wet conditions played a major role in 2011 and 2016 having double digit under par winners, though 2011 you can notice the cut is that dissimilar from other years on the list (Rory played very well)

 

Lets look at avg driving distance over the last 11 years

 

2021 -  296 (Bryson DeChambeau, 323)

2020 - 296 (Bryson DeChambeau, 322)

2019 - 293 (Cameron Champ, 317)

2018 - 295 (Trey Muinax, 318) 

2017 - 292 (Rory Mcilroy, 316)

2016 - 291 (JB Homes 314)

2015 - 290 (Dustin Johnson, 317)

2014 - 289 (Bubba Watson, 314)

2013 - 288 (Luke List, 306)

2012 - 290 (Bubba Watson, 315)

2011 - 291 (JB Holmes, 318)

 

So the longest has gotten 5 yards longer and the avg has gotten 5 yards longer

 

I understand how flawed this stat

 

This rule going from 48 to 46 is a good move honestly but its coming way to late and God forbid someone is over 6'4" and needs a longer driver to play effectively

 

The tee height is something I think could help ... if you wanna know how the USGA came up with 4 inches ... they just picked a number. Lets shrink down to 2.5"

 

Limiting CC for the professional game wouldn't be a bad idea either (maybe go to 400cc)

 

These are just ideas

 

I don't understand how making the ball go shorter will make golf more fun to watch

 

Go play 9 holes by yourself and play the tips

 

Tee off and then where ever your drive ends up ... walk backwars 20 yards and play from there ... lets see how much fun you would have

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 10/13/2021 at 5:24 PM, Fairway14 said:

 

 

What difference does it make if players shoot 58 instead of 68 , or hit a 400 yard drive instead of a 250 yard drive ? All games/sports evolve with time , so why should golf be any different ? I don't believe longer drives or lower scoring has anything to do with the "integrity of the game".


 

Basketball 🏀 and court same size for past 50 years. 
 

Football 🏈 and field size same for past 50 years. 
 

Baseball ⚾️, bat, ball same. Fields actually smaller in many cases now that 50 years ago. 


 

In the middle of a game, you could hand Aaron Judge the same bat Mickey Mantle used 60 years ago and he’ll step up to the plate no problem. 
 

Hand Bryson the same driver that Hogan used on the 10th tee during a tournament and he’ll start crying ; )

 

 

3D74A6F7-D990-4B3C-A9E9-C7ED723C7643.jpeg

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On 10/12/2021 at 5:56 PM, PHILsThemannnn said:

This is kind of a stupid way to go about it IMO.  I know they did that whole insights report in 2019-20, but I think they should be looking at course design instead of shafts. In 2021 all 4 major champions were middle of the pack in driving accuracy for that week and Morikawa/Hideki were near the bottom in distance. They are approaching this whole issue the wrong way. Why don't course designers take a look at Augusta National? 6 of the par 4s are under 460 and all 4 par 5s are reachable in 2. The course is long, but it's not like an Erin Hills long.

AN is long…7475 is long.

 

In my opinion the USGA is more concerned with the how than the what.  Golf is a game where all that matters is score….and yet the powers that be are more concerned with the optics of how.  They want modern players to need to hit a long iron or fairway wood into 13 at Augusta for example.  Heck they could fix this whole problem by just making manufacturers us old traditional lofts when putting numbers at the bottom.  52* pitching wedges and up from there and instead of 9 iron the pros hit 7 and all is well.**

 

 

 

** somewhat a tongue in cheek comment but there is some reality to the point.

 

If they ever decide to roll back anything I have come over a wee bit to adjusting the ball.  It’s the only part of the players equipment that is more of a disposable item.  For WRX’rs with a 20 dozen stash the USGA could fund a trade in program.😏 

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31 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

AN is long…7475 is long.

 

In my opinion the USGA is more concerned with the how than the what.  Golf is a game where all that matters is score….and yet the powers that be are more concerned with the optics of how.  They want modern players to need to hit a long iron or fairway wood into 13 at Augusta for example.  Heck they could fix this whole problem by just making manufacturers us old traditional lofts when putting numbers at the bottom.  52* pitching wedges and up from there and instead of 9 iron the pros hit 7 and all is well.**

 

 

 

** somewhat a tongue in cheek comment but there is some reality to the point.

 

If they ever decide to roll back anything I have come over a wee bit to adjusting the ball.  It’s the only part of the players equipment that is more of a disposable item.  For WRX’rs with a 20 dozen stash the USGA could fund a trade in program.😏 

 I agree but you didn't read my full statement. What I'm saying is it's a long course but it's manageable. I feel that 7400-7500 should be the threshold for length. Courses like Erin Hills and Kiawah Island are unplayable for half the field (both courses were tipped out close to 7900 for the 2017 US Open and 2021 PGA Championship). To me it's stupid watching par 3's/4's where players are 5-woods for approach shots. The beauty of Augusta is a pro can still somewhat manage a decent score despite being a short hitter. It's a long course but length isn't the only emphasis. Look at Langer last year at Augusta, he played with Bryson on Sunday and beat him by 2 shots despite being out driven by an average of 60-70 yards. I don't think Langer could do that at Kiawah Island. 

Screen Shot 2021-10-16 at 7.35.12 PM.png

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Jonathan Wall had a podcast late last year or earlier this year with a current PGA Tour player who said that by the end of this year, most Tour players would be using a long driver. That never materialized. 

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2 hours ago, PHILsThemannnn said:

 I agree but you didn't read my full statement. What I'm saying is it's a long course but it's manageable. I feel that 7400-7500 should be the threshold for length. Courses like Erin Hills and Kiawah Island are unplayable for half the field (both courses were tipped out close to 7900 for the 2017 US Open and 2021 PGA Championship). To me it's stupid watching par 3's/4's where players are 5-woods for approach shots. The beauty of Augusta is a pro can still somewhat manage a decent score despite being a short hitter. It's a long course but length isn't the only emphasis. Look at Langer last year at Augusta, he played with Bryson on Sunday and beat him by 2 shots despite being out driven by an average of 60-70 yards. I don't think Langer could do that at Kiawah Island. 

Screen Shot 2021-10-16 at 7.35.12 PM.png

You’re comparing the longest player on tour statistically to a 64 year old that never relied on length off the tee though.  Saying things like “half the field finds 7900 unplayable” loses credibility.  No one on the junior tour is short.  Kevin Na averaged just about 290 for 170th on tour last season.  That’s an average. Unless the course is soaked, which it rarely is at a major, he can hit it over 300 any time he wants.  

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12 hours ago, Holy Moses said:

Jonathan Wall had a podcast late last year or earlier this year with a current PGA Tour player who said that by the end of this year, most Tour players would be using a long driver. That never materialized. 

I have no inside knowledge but I believe the players probably got wind of this  ruling early and decided it wasn’t worth the effort to make the long driver work just for a few months. I also believe Bryson was basically told when it comes to Augusta, that it wouldn’t be in the spirit if the game and it wouldn’t be in his best interest to bring the long driver out at that event. 

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The problem with the ball isn't just that it is very long and proportionally longer for those with high club head speeds.  It is also much straighter than the old balls and reacts better to the wind.  IMO, the ball has removed an element of ball striking skill from the tour professional and has narrowed the gap between the great and the very good.  It is apparent at this weeks tournament.  Believe it or not, the Summit Club is not an easy golf course.  

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1 hour ago, airjammer said:

I have no inside knowledge but I believe the players probably got wind of this  ruling early and decided it wasn’t worth the effort to make the long driver work just for a few months. I also believe Bryson was basically told when it comes to Augusta, that it wouldn’t be in the spirit if the game and it wouldn’t be in his best interest to bring the long driver out at that event. 

The first sentence I believe.  The idea Bryson was told “we just don’t do that here” not so much.

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4 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

The first sentence I believe.  The idea Bryson was told “we just don’t do that here” not so much.

It was just so weird that he was so hyped up about it and then out of no where said basically…he just couldn’t make it work. That being said, he also threw cobra under bus not too long after and said their drivers suck essentially so I doubt that actually happened but it did cross my mind because when he dropped the idea it was very sudden. It also makes lots of sense as we know how much influence Augusta has on golf as a whole. They run their event and club with a iron fist in all aspects. I genuinely believe they were concerned that he was going to come in there and make a mockery of the length of the golf course. Thru land purchases and changes to the course I believe it reasonable to assume they would very much in favor of a rollback or at least some very hard stoppage of any distance gains to maintain a reasonable scoring average or requiring a similar decision to players that played 40 years ago on how to play a hole or shot. 

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3 hours ago, airjammer said:

It was just so weird that he was so hyped up about it and then out of no where said basically…he just couldn’t make it work. That being said, he also threw cobra under bus not too long after and said their drivers suck essentially so I doubt that actually happened but it did cross my mind because when he dropped the idea it was very sudden. It also makes lots of sense as we know how much influence Augusta has on golf as a whole. They run their event and club with a iron fist in all aspects. I genuinely believe they were concerned that he was going to come in there and make a mockery of the length of the golf course. Thru land purchases and changes to the course I believe it reasonable to assume they would very much in favor of a rollback or at least some very hard stoppage of any distance gains to maintain a reasonable scoring average or requiring a similar decision to players that played 40 years ago on how to play a hole or shot. 

They may have been concerned. But Augusta has always honored the proper rules of golf.  All the idle speculation of silliness like a Masters ball and such was never truly considered imo.  It was bandied about in the press more than anything.  One sportswriter printing it gets to be considered truth if it’s repeated often enough.

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Me thinks USGA pushed 46" limit just to irk Phil and limit Bryson.  Bryson and Phil are probably the only 2 guys who play 48" and after what Bryson did to Winged Foot and USGA don't give a rats arse what Phil thinks you kind of knew it was coming.  

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I get the impression this is a Bryson thing.  They don't want a new generation of "Iron Mikes" driving the ball 370 yards.  All they need are longer courses.

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Maybe they should go back to persimmons, and wound balls , then the distance issue is mute. There, that will grow the game. Lol's.

I suspect I will be kicking the USGA to the curb. I had enough after the groove spectacle.  This will be the same,  

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2 hours ago, ohioglfr said:

I get the impression this is a Bryson thing.  They don't want a new generation of "Iron Mikes" driving the ball 370 yards.  All they need are longer courses.

Valderrama, where the European Tour played this week, had a winning score of 6 under. Course barely plays over 7,000 yards (7,028). Longer courses aren't always the answer. See Erin Hills for the US Open. Played around 7,800 yards and the winning score was 16 under. 

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I just wanted to say that if you look at average driving distance, the top guys average hasn't changed much going all the way back to 2003.  I have said this many times before in threads like this.  The golf courses played on tour have a habit of limiting the useful distance.  It essentially caps the longest of the long over the course of a season.  315-320 is where that cap lies and anything beyond that really isn't useful.  There have been guys capable of what Bryson can do for a long time its just that most dial it back after a while on tour.  The club length pseudo rule was needless and hurts more than it does anything at all for the optics of the tour, which is what this is all about.  I am just going to keep suggesting things the USGA should really do if they want to cap things where they are at.  They need to fill the holes not roll back existing ones. One example, they need to put a limit on club weight.  That is the direction the industry has been headed for a long long time.  Lighter overall weight of all clubs (mostly obtained by the shaft weights lowering) while still maintaining shaft stability.  Case in point, autoflex.  

 

To be clear though, I don't want said limits, I am fine with how things are evolving now.  I do however think that if the ruling bodies want to limit distance gains, there are holes they need to fill in order to do so.  The weight is just one of them.

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14 hours ago, ohioglfr said:

I get the impression this is a Bryson thing.  They don't want a new generation of "Iron Mikes" driving the ball 370 yards.  All they need are longer courses.

All they need are longer courses?  It would be lot easier to go to shorter equipment.

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Let’s set rules for the world of golf because we’re worried about optics for 200 top golfers hitting it far on wide open tour friendly tracks … really smart

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On 10/16/2021 at 10:04 AM, bscinstnct said:


 

Basketball 🏀 and court same size for past 50 years. 
 

Football 🏈 and field size same for past 50 years. 
 

Baseball ⚾️, bat, ball same. Fields actually smaller in many cases now that 50 years ago. 


 

In the middle of a game, you could hand Aaron Judge the same bat Mickey Mantle used 60 years ago and he’ll step up to the plate no problem. 
 

Hand Bryson the same driver that Hogan used on the 10th tee during a tournament and he’ll start crying ; )

 

 

3D74A6F7-D990-4B3C-A9E9-C7ED723C7643.jpeg

Your post got me thinking as I’m sitting here watching the Trashstros @ Red Sox game. MLB still using wood bats is the equivalent of golf pros using the old persimmon woods. Can you imagine If MLB allowed the new composite bats with 2.75” barrels and drops of 8-10?! Which would be the equivalent of the modern driver in golf. Pitchers would need to wear head to toe body armor and they would have to push the fences back 100’! 

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6 hours ago, stage1350 said:

So was the USGA just stupid when they capped the drivers at 48 inches?  Because they either screwed up then, or they are screwing up now.  (Answer: they continue to be stupid!)

 

Just like the groove rule which was immediately compensated for with shafts like DG Spinner, there is no rule they can set that they engineers can't find a solution for.  

 

Why not just grow the rough to 6+ inches and force them to keep it in the fairway?

Why not create typical conditions like humans play instead of shutting off the water and turning the fairway into a concrete runway?

Why not furrow the bunkers and remove the rakes so that it's actually a HAZARD?  Instead, no penalty for grounding your club now.

How about not rolling the greens and making them like billiard tables?  Instead, now you can tamp down spike marks.  

 

Are you trying to protect par or not?    

 

They were stupid with the groove rule.  The next tournament after it went live, a 63 was posted.  It didn't make a bit of difference to the professionals.   They are stupid with this as well. 

 

You don't need to "Bryson-proof" courses anymore than you needed to "Tiger-proof" them 20 years ago.  

 

Good rant and I agree.  All this new rule does is take a longer more comfortable club out of the hands of any taller player or future taller player, and takes it out of the hands of the currently testing or using players.  This might not be many people but it doesn't matter.  When the rule doesn't accomplish ANYTHING to tackle the "problem" the ruling bodies so desperately desire to do something about, it therefore is only for optics and has only a negative impact on the sport imo.

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7 hours ago, stage1350 said:

So was the USGA just stupid when they capped the drivers at 48 inches?  Because they either screwed up then, or they are screwing up now.  (Answer: they continue to be stupid!)

 

Just like the groove rule which was immediately compensated for with shafts like DG Spinner, there is no rule they can set that they engineers can't find a solution for.  

 

Why not just grow the rough to 6+ inches and force them to keep it in the fairway?

Why not create typical conditions like humans play instead of shutting off the water and turning the fairway into a concrete runway?

Why not furrow the bunkers and remove the rakes so that it's actually a HAZARD?  Instead, no penalty for grounding your club now.

How about not rolling the greens and making them like billiard tables?  Instead, now you can tamp down spike marks.  

 

Are you trying to protect par or not?    

 

They were stupid with the groove rule.  The next tournament after it went live, a 63 was posted.  It didn't make a bit of difference to the professionals.   They are stupid with this as well. 

 

You don't need to "Bryson-proof" courses anymore than you needed to "Tiger-proof" them 20 years ago.  

 

Are you asking for the USGA to do these things, individual courses or the PGA Tour?  At some point all three may have to make those decisions on the same course.

 

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1 hour ago, clevited said:

When the rule doesn't accomplish ANYTHING to tackle the "problem" the ruling bodies so desperately desire to do something about, it therefore is only for optics and has only a negative impact on the sport imo.

 

If we agree that the problem they are attempting to tackle is increased driving distance (see USGA statement) and we agree that there is a valid reason the long drive guys use 48+" shafts (I am going to assume distance since it is in print multiple places it isn't forgiveness) then how do you reconcile that limiting shaft length (if the model local rule is adopted) doesn't accomplish just what it was intended to do?

 

How can it be that it "doesn't accomplish anything" and have a negative impact?

 

"Let’s look at Joe Miller’s driver specs from 2016. 3 degrees of loft, XXX stiff 50 inch shaft. "

https://www.golfclubguru.com/the-3-longest-non-conforming-driver-heads-for-long-drive-competitors/ _ 

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31 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

If we agree that the problem they are attempting to tackle is increased driving distance (see USGA statement) and we agree that there is a valid reason the long drive guys use 48+" shafts (I am going to assume distance since it is in print multiple places it isn't forgiveness) then how do you reconcile that limiting shaft length (if the model local rule is adopted) doesn't accomplish just what it was intended to do?

 

How can it be that it "doesn't accomplish anything" and have a negative impact?

 

"Let’s look at Joe Miller’s driver specs from 2016. 3 degrees of loft, XXX stiff 50 inch shaft. "

https://www.golfclubguru.com/the-3-longest-non-conforming-driver-heads-for-long-drive-competitors/ _ 

 

1) Longer clubs generally get heavier. (This corresponds to my point about making a weight per inch type of limit instead of effectively rolling back a length rule)

2) Longer clubs generally get harder to control and will always be harder to control.

3) Course mix on the tour limit the benefit of off the tee distance naturally.  (As pointed out by myself earlier, the longest of the long have always hovered around that 315 to 320 mark since 2003)

4) Long drive guys use them because they only need to get ONE ball in play to win.  Its sort of an arms race.  You better max out everything and hope you catch one good because 5 extra mph of ball speed with the right launch conditions and in play could beat your opponent by one yard.

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47 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Are you asking for the USGA to do these things, individual courses or the PGA Tour?  At some point all three may have to make those decisions on the same course.

 

That's an excellent observation and highlights the fact that distance is only a PGA Tour problem (and I'm not so sure the PGA Tour thinks it's a problem).  I've yet to meet a golfer who complains they have too much distance with all of their clubs.

 

Why does the USGA feel the need to regulate the PGA Tour?  Especially when the only way they can do that is to change the rules of golf for all golfers. 

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1 hour ago, oikos1 said:

Why does the USGA feel the need to regulate the PGA Tour?  Especially when the only way they can do that is to change the rules of golf for all golfers. 

 

This is just Smash reading between the lines but I have to think that at some level the PGA Tour asked for this.  Reason I say that is A) they were consulted and B) they came out rather quickly that they were going to adopt the model local rule and C) they did so in the middle of their season.  One more between the lines inference is that the PGA Tour must believe this does not affect much of their members as they are basically giving them only 3 months before the effective date. 

 

Regarding your second statement I quoted there, they didn't change the rules for all golfers, they made it possible for a committee to adopt a rule that would apply to event(s).  Just like the E-5 model local rule.  PGA Tour hasn't adopted it but your club lad-lassie may.

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On 10/18/2021 at 10:22 AM, gvogel said:

All they need are longer courses?  It would be lot easier to go to shorter equipment.

Exactly.  I was being satirical regarding longer courses.

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On 10/17/2021 at 10:24 PM, grm24 said:

Valderrama, where the European Tour played this week, had a winning score of 6 under. Course barely plays over 7,000 yards (7,028). Longer courses aren't always the answer. See Erin Hills for the US Open. Played around 7,800 yards and the winning score was 16 under. 

I agree.  I was being satirical.  Courses play long enough as it is.

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    • 2022 Farmers Insurance Open Photos - 26 WITBs & New Gear- Discussion and Links
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
      General Albums - 
       
      2022 Farmers Insurance Open - Monday #1
      2022 Farmers Insurance Open - Monday #2
      2022 Farmers Insurance Open - Monday #3
      2022 Farmers Insurance Open - Monday #4
       
       
      WITB Albums - 
       
      Hideki Matsuyama - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Sung Kang - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Adam Long - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Brandon Wu - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Jimmy Walker - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Sam Burns - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Xander Schauffele - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Trey Mullinax - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Daniel Berger - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      James Hahn - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Phil Mickelson - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Aaron Wise - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Justin Thomas - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Lee Hodges - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Jordan Spieth - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Cameron Champ - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Kyle Stanley - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
       
       
      Pullout Albums - 
       
      New Super Stroke grip - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Tour Aim alignment aids - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Swag Golf: Hideki's caddie bowing at Augusta, signed headcovers – 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Dylan Frittelli's Callaway Apex TCB Sand Wedge (1-of-1 proto) – 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Bryson DeChambeau's Cobra King LTDx 5-degree driver – 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      NeuroPeak Pro NTel Belt - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      JumboMax JMX Zen Lite grips – 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
       
      Cameron Champ WITB has the new Ping i525

       
      Bryson's WITB has the new Cobra LTDx Driver 

       
      Phils new Rogue Driver

       
      Bryson's LAGolf Shaft in the driver

       
      Xander has the triple diamond "S" driver

       
      New SuperStroke grips for 2022

       
      • 7 replies
    • 2022 The American Express WITB Photos (Spotted: New gear for 2022) - Discussion & Links
      Please put and comments or questions here
       
       
      Scotty Cameron putters - 2022 American Express
      New Taylor-Made putters - 2022 American Express
      New Odyssey putters - 2022 American Express
      New Axis 1 model putter - - 2022 American Express
      Patrick Cantlay - WITB - 2022 American Express
      Mitsubishi MMT putter shaft - 2022 American Express
      Ping putter - 2022 American Express
      Abraham Ancer - WITB - 2022 American Express
      Jason Dufner - WITB - 2022 American Express
      Will Zalatoris - WITB - 2022 American Express
      The Surgeon 6109 wedge - 2022 American Express
      LA Golf "DJ Series" shafts (2022 American Express)
       
       
       
      2022 American Express - Monday #1
       
       
       
       
      • 40 replies
    • Sony Open Pics from January 11, 2022 Part 1
      I was able to get out to the Sony Open today to take a few pics.  I guess due to Covid precautions they kept the spectators pretty far from the players.  Also due to camera restrictions they've put in place, I wasn't able to bring the big lens like I normally do. Hopefully they'll ease up on the ropes and I'll be able to get more pics tomorrow!
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      • 22 replies
    • 2022 Callaway Rogue ST drivers (in-hand photos)
      2022 Callaway Rogue ST Max driver
       

       
      2022 Callaway Rogue ST Max D driver
       
      2021 Callaway Rogue ST Max 
       
      2022 Callaway Rogue ST Max LS driver

       
      2022 Callaway Rogue ST Triple Diamond LS

       
      Rogue ST exploded views
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      • 208 replies
    • Titleist Vokey SM9 Link on Wedge Works Coming Soon- UPDATED Pics Added Pg 4
      Looks like there is a link on Titleist Wedge Works for the new Vokey SM9, but doesn't show any photos yet.
       
      https://www.vokey.com/product/WM137.html#start=4
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      • 237 replies

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