When is the ball actually holed?

[Haroputt]

Playing With the flagstick in when putting sometime I see the ball get stuck in the hole between the pin and edge of the cup so I can still the top portion of the ball.  Ball looks like it’s in the cup but has not fallen in to the bottom of the cup

 

Read that ball is not actually hole unless the ball rest at the bottom of the cup  So if I remove the ball is that a penalty ?

Also if I remove the pin gently the ball will fall bottom of the cup Sometimes the ball will jump out of the hole 

Is there any new ruling when putt/chip is actually holed cause it seems to me that if the ball is stuck between the edge of the cup and pin it would be holed 

Edited October 12, 2021 by Haroputt

[nsxguy]

@Haroputt

 

Since Jan 1, 2019, no need for the ball to be on the bottom.

 

Ball is considered holed if ANY part of it is below the top edge(s) of the cup.

Edited October 12, 2021 by nsxguy

[jlbos83]

This one changed in 2019.  Now if the ball comes to rest against the stick, and any part is below the surface, the ball is holed.  Rule 13.2 c

[LeoLeo99]

16 minutes ago, Haroputt said:

Playing With the flagstick in when putting sometime I see the ball get stuck in the hole between the pin and edge of the cup so I can still the top portion of the ball.  Ball looks like it’s in the cup but has not fallen in to the bottom of the cup

 

Read that ball is not actually hole unless the ball rest at the bottom of the cup  So if I remove the ball is that a penalty ?

Also if I remove the pin gently the ball will fall bottom of the cup Sometimes the ball will jump out of the hole 

Is there any new ruling when putt/chip is actually holed cause it seems to me that if the ball is stuck between the edge of the cup and pin it would be holed 

 

You're using old rule thinking.  They changed the definition of holed when they changed the rule to allow the flagstick to remain in the hole.  

[rogolf]

16 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

@Haroputt

 

Since Jan 1, 2019, no need for the ball to be on the bottom.

 

Ball is considered holed if ANY part of it is below the top edge(s) of the cup.

Not quite - it must also be touching the flagstick.  Definition below.

Holed

When a ball is at rest in the hole after a stroke and the entire ball is below the surface of the putting green.

When the Rules refer to “holing out ” or “hole out,” it means when the player’s ball is holed.

For the special case of a ball resting against the flagstick in the hole, see Rule 13.2c (ball is treated as holed if any part of the ball is below the surface of the putting green).

Edited October 12, 2021 by rogolf

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Haroputt said:

Playing With the flagstick in when putting sometime I see the ball get stuck in the hole between the pin and edge of the cup so I can still the top portion of the ball.  Ball looks like it’s in the cup but has not fallen in to the bottom of the cup

 

Read that ball is not actually hole unless the ball rest at the bottom of the cup  So if I remove the ball is that a penalty ?

Also if I remove the pin gently the ball will fall bottom of the cup Sometimes the ball will jump out of the hole 

Is there any new ruling when putt/chip is actually holed cause it seems to me that if the ball is stuck between the edge of the cup and pin it would be holed 

 

41 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Not quite - it must also be touching the flagstick.  Definition below.

Holed

When a ball is at rest in the hole after a stroke and the entire ball is below the surface of the putting green.

When the Rules refer to “holing out ” or “hole out,” it means when the player’s ball is holed.

For the special case of a ball resting against the flagstick in the hole, see Rule 13.2c (ball is treated as holed if any part of the ball is below the surface of the putting green).

 

3) I answered his question

 

and

 

b) I'd like to see any part of the ball be below the hole and not leaning against the stick (or be on the bottom of the hole of course).

 

[Shilgy]

20 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

3) I answered his question

 

and

 

b) I'd like to see any part of the ball be below the hole and not leaning against the stick (or be on the bottom of the hole of course).

 

Sure it is unlikely….but somewhere(I am too lazy to look-won’t give a too busy excuse😏) there is a picture of a ball embedded against the edge of the hole.  Part of he ball below the putting surface but definitely not “holed” or against the flagstick. 
 

fine, nothing better to do….

 

[antip]

There is also a photo of a ball over a hole with no flagstick, part of the ball below the lip but held up by a twig. Not holed (post 2019). I've seen another with the ball held up by a leaf only - not holed.

[nsxguy]

As good a job as "they" did with the 2019 revisions of the ROG, clearing up, simplifying and not punishing golfers for accidents, it still boggles the mind that the above 2 examples couldn't have been "handled".

 

The 2 examples above are 2 perfect examples of rules that boggle the mind of pretty much anybody. I'm sure there is a reason for it. I'm just as sure that *I* can't think of it - nor do I care to.

 

I GET that given the definition of "holed" that those 2 are NOT holed. I wouldn't care to explain that to any opponent during a casual game and certainly not during a serious comp.

 

Given those 2 examples of NOT being holed, why do you guys "leave us hanging" as to the proper procedure from that point on ?

 

I can just see golf in the northern climes here in the States this time of year (& Springtime as well for that matter). Leaves are ALWAYS in and around the holes. I can just see myself telling an opponent whose ball is lying on a leaf in the bottom of the hole or the guy whose ball is kept from the bottom of the hole by a twig, "Sorry, but that's not holed". 🙃

 

[antip]

45 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

As good a job as "they" did with the 2019 revisions of the ROG, clearing up, simplifying and not punishing golfers for accidents, it still boggles the mind that the above 2 examples couldn't have been "handled".

 

The 2 examples above are 2 perfect examples of rules that boggle the mind of pretty much anybody. I'm sure there is a reason for it. I'm just as sure that *I* can't think of it - nor do I care to.

 

I GET that given the definition of "holed" that those 2 are NOT holed. I wouldn't care to explain that to any opponent during a casual game and certainly not during a serious comp.

 

Given those 2 examples of NOT being holed, why do you guys "leave us hanging" as to the proper procedure from that point on ?

 

I can just see golf in the northern climes here in the States this time of year (& Springtime as well for that matter). Leaves are ALWAYS in and around the holes. I can just see myself telling an opponent whose ball is lying on a leaf in the bottom of the hole or the guy whose ball is kept from the bottom of the hole by a twig, "Sorry, but that's not holed". 🙃

 

Hold back with the tomahawk for a mo.....

 

First to be clear, a ball is holed when it is in the hole and fully below the surface of the green regardless of how many leaves or twigs are in the hole and with our without the flagstick.

 

As to those two examples I cited, I have never in my life seen it, we are talking one in many, many millions probability - and I suspect the photos I have seen were carefully staged for the sheer joy of asking the rules question..... Think about it, the player has taken the flagstick out but not moved any obstacles near the hole? I don't think so. Not saying it is impossible for a loose impediment to blow in and securely fix itself over the hole while a stroke close enough for the flag to be removed is in motion, but it would be a genuine "call me when it happens" event.

 

And this is a theme RBs have very much front of mind - do you attempt to write rules that cover every possible eventuality on the course - the 5000 page rule book - or do you approach the task more pragmatically. I don't think there is much wrong with the balance struck in 2019, and the higher priority useful tweaks that have emerged with putting the new book into practice will be revealed next year for commencement in 2023.

 

PS Answering the 'leaving us hanging' issue: if this ever occurs to you (after taking the obligatory 'with overhanging twig' selfie to show the grandkids), player can play as lies or remove the loose impediment, causing the ball to move, and then replace with no penalty on the lip of the hole (no penalty for accidental movement of ball on putting green).

Edited October 13, 2021 by antip
Added the PS

[Newby]

I had a ruling from the R&A some years ago relating to a genuine incident at my club.

 

A large leaf was covering the hole and preventing the ball from falling in. The answer was to lift the ball, remove the LI and replace the ball under the position of the leaf. As the ball would then fall in it was deemed to have been holed with the original stroke.

[antip]

3 hours ago, Newby said:

I had a ruling from the R&A some years ago relating to a genuine incident at my club.

 

A large leaf was covering the hole and preventing the ball from falling in. The answer was to lift the ball, remove the LI and replace the ball under the position of the leaf. As the ball would then fall in it was deemed to have been holed with the original stroke.

And then along came the 2019 Rules.....and that leaf became your enemy.

[nsxguy]

9 hours ago, antip said:

Hold back with the tomahawk for a mo.....

 

First to be clear, a ball is holed when it is in the hole and fully below the surface of the green regardless of how many leaves or twigs are in the hole and with our without the flagstick.

 

As to those two examples I cited, I have never in my life seen it, we are talking one in many, many millions probability - and I suspect the photos I have seen were carefully staged for the sheer joy of asking the rules question..... Think about it, the player has taken the flagstick out but not moved any obstacles near the hole? I don't think so. Not saying it is impossible for a loose impediment to blow in and securely fix itself over the hole while a stroke close enough for the flag to be removed is in motion, but it would be a genuine "call me when it happens" event.

 

And this is a theme RBs have very much front of mind - do you attempt to write rules that cover every possible eventuality on the course - the 5000 page rule book - or do you approach the task more pragmatically. I don't think there is much wrong with the balance struck in 2019, and the higher priority useful tweaks that have emerged with putting the new book into practice will be revealed next year for commencement in 2023.

 

PS Answering the 'leaving us hanging' issue: if this ever occurs to you (after taking the obligatory 'with overhanging twig' selfie to show the grandkids), player can play as lies or remove the loose impediment, causing the ball to move, and then replace with no penalty on the lip of the hole (no penalty for accidental movement of ball on putting green).

 

The tomahawk pic was of my opponent coming after me when I told him the ruling.

 

Thanks antip but the "leaving us hanging" wasn't specifically for this event as I, not knowing the ruling, would've a) simply let the player and others "decide" OR, if it was a "serious" comp, especially with strangers, b) would've gone the "play 2 balls", tell us which one you want to have count ( ) route and let the committee decide after the round.

 

 

 

As for "protecting the field" I can't find that anywhere in the Rules although I expect it's hidden(?) somewhere.

 

Match play ? I'd have done/said nothing. HE thinks it's in, I think it's in, everybody else thinks it's in. It's IN.

 

As for leaving us hanging Part 2, I get that, just as my teachers did when I was in 4th grade, some of youse guys want us to research and find the answers for ourselves rather than just spoon feed us the answer.

 

That's a great method for having people, youngsters especially, learn. I expect it's much more effective than just telling someone the answer. But here, hardened golfers (mostly) just want the answers. As well as watching intently when the rulies discuss the minutia/history (which is also interesting at times).

 

As for the Rules not covering every single little thing,,,,,, The single most important "place" in golf is the hole. That IS, after all, the ultimate goal 18 times a round.

 

How could ANY event regarding holing of the ball, regardless of how rare, NOT be covered ?

 

 

7 hours ago, Newby said:

I had a ruling from the R&A some years ago relating to a genuine incident at my club.

 

A large leaf was covering the hole and preventing the ball from falling in. The answer was to lift the ball, remove the LI and replace the ball under the position of the leaf. As the ball would then fall in it was deemed to have been holed with the original stroke.

 

3 hours ago, antip said:

And then along came the 2019 Rules.....and that leaf became your enemy.

 

So the Rules have devolved a bit here and there, eh ?

 

Newby's ruling/result is incredibly obvious to anybody with a modicum of common sense.

 

But prior to '19, the old Rules, considered the ball holed. Now ? Sorry. Better luck next time.

[rogolf]

50 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

The tomahawk pic was of my opponent coming after me when I told him the ruling.

 

Thanks antip but the "leaving us hanging" wasn't specifically for this event as I, not knowing the ruling, would've a) simply let the player and others "decide" OR, if it was a "serious" comp, especially with strangers, b) would've gone the "play 2 balls", tell us which one you want to have count ( ) route and let the committee decide after the round.

 

 

 

As for "protecting the field" I can't find that anywhere in the Rules although I expect it's hidden(?) somewhere.

 

Match play ? I'd have done/said nothing. HE thinks it's in, I think it's in, everybody else thinks it's in. It's IN.

 

As for leaving us hanging Part 2, I get that, just as my teachers did when I was in 4th grade, some of youse guys want us to research and find the answers for ourselves rather than just spoon feed us the answer.

 

That's a great method for having people, youngsters especially, learn. I expect it's much more effective than just telling someone the answer. But here, hardened golfers (mostly) just want the answers. As well as watching intently when the rulies discuss the minutia/history (which is also interesting at times).

 

As for the Rules not covering every single little thing,,,,,, The single most important "place" in golf is the hole. That IS, after all, the ultimate goal 18 times a round.

 

How could ANY event regarding holing of the ball, regardless of how rare, NOT be covered ?

 

 

 

 

So the Rules have devolved a bit here and there, eh ?

 

Newby's ruling/result is incredibly obvious to anybody with a modicum of common sense.

 

But prior to '19, the old Rules, considered the ball holed. Now ? Sorry. Better luck next time.

Imo, the definition of "holed" and its Interpretations covers it sufficiently.

Holed

When a ball is at rest in the hole after a stroke and the entire ball is below the surface of the putting green.

When the Rules refer to “holing out ” or “hole out,” it means when the player’s ball is holed.

For the special case of a ball resting against the flagstick in the hole, see Rule 13.2c (ball is treated as holed if any part of the ball is below the surface of the putting green).

Holed/1 – All of the Ball Must Be Below the Surface to Be Holed When Embedded in Side of Hole

When a ball is embedded in the side of the hole, and all of the ball is not below the surface of the putting green, the ball is not holed. This is the case even if the ball touches the flagstick.

Holed/2 – Ball Is Considered Holed Even Though It Is Not “At Rest”

The words “at rest” in the definition of holed are used to make it clear that if a ball falls into the hole and bounces out, it is not holed.

However, if a player removes a ball from the hole that is still moving (such as circling or bouncing in the bottom of the hole), it is considered holed despite the ball not having come to rest in the hole.

[nsxguy]

5 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Imo, the definition of "holed" and its Interpretations covers it sufficiently.

Holed

 

When a ball is at rest in the hole after a stroke and the entire ball is below the surface of the putting green.

 

When the Rules refer to “holing out ” or “hole out,” it means when the player’s ball is holed.

 

For the special case of a ball resting against the flagstick in the hole, see Rule 13.2c (ball is treated as holed if any part of the ball is below the surface of the putting green).

 

Holed/1 – All of the Ball Must Be Below the Surface to Be Holed When Embedded in Side of Hole

 

When a ball is embedded in the side of the hole, and all of the ball is not below the surface of the putting green, the ball is not holed. This is the case even if the ball touches the flagstick.

 

Holed/2 – Ball Is Considered Holed Even Though It Is Not “At Rest”

 

The words “at rest” in the definition of holed are used to make it clear that if a ball falls into the hole and bounces out, it is not holed.

 

However, if a player removes a ball from the hole that is still moving (such as circling or bouncing in the bottom of the hole), it is considered holed despite the ball not having come to rest in the hole.

 

 

I've read all that before. While it does "cover" everything, it doesn't do so fairly (IMO).

 

So we'll agree to (sort of) disagree. That embedded ball, pictured earlier, to ME, should be considered holed. From the visible evidence it is obvious, to me anyway, that ONLY the hole liner kept it from going in. Had there been NO liner it would've been in.

 

IMO, CLEARLY the most likely outcome would have been the edge of the hole slowing the ball and it's in.

 

Now, how about newby's example ?

 

Previously considered holed, not now. I GET that the Rules "cover" it and in that respect the Rules make it "fair" since it's the same for everyone - but that doesn't make the outcome "fair" for the player.

 

Ask 100 random people who know NOTHING about the ROG and see how many agree with the outcome (of either instance).

 

Heck, ask 100 players and see what THEY say - both about whether it's holed and about whether they consider it a just outcome.

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

Newby's ruling/result is incredibly obvious to anybody with a modicum of common sense.

 

But prior to '19, the old Rules, considered the ball holed. Now ? Sorry. Better luck next time.

 

A splendid rant, but I do take issue with being considered lacking in even a modicum of common sense because  it's incredibly obvious to me that  a ball sitting on top of a leaf or a twig or anything covering the hole isn't holed when the definition of holed is simple and clear:  all of the ball below the surface of the green  or part of the ball below the surface if the ball is touching the flagstick.  That just needs a modicum of reading comprehension and a pair of working eyes. 🙂

[Newby]

2 minutes ago, Colin L said:

 

A splendid rant, but I do take issue with being considered lacking in even a modicum of common sense because  it's incredibly obvious to me that  a ball sitting on top of a leaf or a twig or anything covering the hole isn't holed when the definition of holed is simple and clear:  all of the ball below the surface of the green  or part of the ball below the surface if the ball is touching the flagstick.  That just needs a modicum of reading comprehension and a pair of working eyes. 🙂

If your ball is on the green and sitting on a leaf, what may you do?

[rogolf]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

I've read all that before. While it does "cover" everything, it doesn't do so fairly (IMO).

 

So we'll agree to (sort of) disagree. That embedded ball, pictured earlier, to ME, should be considered holed. From the visible evidence it is obvious, to me anyway, that ONLY the hole liner kept it from going in. Had there been NO liner it would've been in.

 

IMO, CLEARLY the most likely outcome would have been the edge of the hole slowing the ball and it's in.

 

Now, how about newby's example ?

 

Previously considered holed, not now. I GET that the Rules "cover" it and in that respect the Rules make it "fair" since it's the same for everyone - but that doesn't make the outcome "fair" for the player.

 

Ask 100 random people who know NOTHING about the ROG and see how many agree with the outcome (of either instance).

 

Heck, ask 100 players and see what THEY say - both about whether it's holed and about whether they consider it a just outcome.

Whether you (or any 100 random people or 100 players) agree, the Rules of golf determine what is "fair" in the game of golf.  🙂

(Just like the rules of other sports do.)

Edited October 13, 2021 by rogolf

[Colin L]

3 hours ago, Newby said:

If your ball is on the green and sitting on a leaf, what may you do?

I may, of course, lift my ball. remove the leaf and replace my ball.  

 

Let me  save you asking the obvious follow up question.   If my ball is sitting on a leaf above the hole, I can do the same: I may lift my ball, remove the leaf and replace my ball.  Now comes the snag.  When I seek to replace my ball it won't stay at rest on the spot on which it is to be replaced because it insists on dropping below it.    After two attempts to get it to stay at rest in mid-air,   I have to invoke Rule 14.2e and find the nearest spot in which it will stay put - which is the edge of the hole.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Colin L

[sui generis]

5 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

As for "protecting the field" I can't find that anywhere in the Rules

 

"Hidden" in R20.1c (for stroke play only):

 

Players Should Protect Other Players in the Competition.

 

To protect the interests of all other players:

If a player knows or believes that another player has breached or might have breached the Rules and that the other player does not recognize or is ignoring this, the player should tell the other player, the player’s marker, a referee or the Committee.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=20&subrulenum=1

[Newby]

25 minutes ago, Colin L said:

I may, of course, lift my ball. remove the leaf and replace my ball.  

 

Let me  save you asking the obvious follow up question.   If my ball is sitting on a leaf above the hole, I can do the same: I may lift my ball, remove the leaf and replace my ball.  Now comes the snag.  When I seek to replace my ball it won't stay at rest on the spot on which it is to be replaced because it insists on dropping below it.    After two attempts to get it to stay at rest in mid-air,   I have to invoke Rule 14.2e and find the nearest spot in which it will stay put - which is the edge of the hole.

Given that in RoG equity is considered, I wonder why they changed it.

[jholz]

I think folks are confusing the terms "fair" and "just" (as in "justice") here. 

 

The rules of golf are what they are. If they are applied consistently and evenly in every instance, that is "fair." There is no room to argue on this point. 

 

But, if you think that a rule is wrong, or should be changed, then you are talking about the "justness" of that rule - i.e. whether it will result in "fairness" or not.

 

As far as this debate is concerned, I simply wish they had left the old rule alone. I much prefer putting at a hole without a flag in it. YMMV. 

 

[nsxguy]

9 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Now, how about newby's example ?

 

Previously considered holed, not now. I GET that the Rules "cover" it and in that respect the Rules make it "fair" since it's the same for everyone - but that doesn't make the outcome "fair" for the player.

 

Ask 100 random people who know NOTHING about the ROG and see how many agree with the outcome (of either instance).

 

Heck, ask 100 players and see what THEY say - both about whether it's holed and about whether they consider it a just outcome.

 

9 hours ago, Colin L said:

 

A splendid rant, but I do take issue with being considered lacking in even a modicum of common sense because  it's incredibly obvious to me that  a ball sitting on top of a leaf or a twig or anything covering the hole isn't holed when the definition of holed is simple and clear:  all of the ball below the surface of the green  or part of the ball below the surface if the ball is touching the flagstick.  That just needs a modicum of reading comprehension and a pair of working eyes. 🙂

 

Thanks (I guess).

 

But you're cherry picking and taking my words out of context.

 

And "fair" has multiple meanings/applications - as I've already explained.

 

But talk about "reading comprehension" and "eyes that work". 

 

What part of "I GET that the Rules "cover" it and in that respect the Rules make it "fair" since it's the same for everyone - but that doesn't make the outcome "fair" for the player" is unclear to you ? How could I have explained/phrased it better ?

 

And yes, a modicum of common sense would tell one that a ball resting on a leaf directly over a hole would have been IN the hole had the leaf not been there - but you already know that.

 

Good grief.

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by nsxguy

[davep043]

20 hours ago, jholz said:

As far as this debate is concerned, I simply wish they had left the old rule alone. I much prefer putting at a hole without a flag in it. YMMV. 

You can do as you prefer under the new rule, as I'm sure you know, the new rule didn't remove that option.  And I agree, for makeable putts I prefer to have the flag out.

[jholz]

8 minutes ago, davep043 said:

You can do as you prefer under the new rule, as I'm sure you know, the new rule didn't remove that option.  And I agree, for makeable putts I prefer to have the flag out.

 

Yeah, for sure. The new rule just makes it a bit of a pain. I would say most casual golfers default to and prefer leaving the flag in. They think it helps. 

 

So, it's never really a problem to pull the flag when I'm playing with other serious golfers. But, on those rounds where I play with randoms as a single, I rarely want to be the Richard that makes everyone pull the pin for me.

 

I have just had to work at getting comfortable with both options. 

[ChrissyM]

This is a slight variation on this theme. Does a ball have to be touching the flag stick to be resting on it? If part of the ball is beneath the surface of the green and the ball is being supported by the stick but with a thin leaf in between, is the ball holed then?

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, ChrissyM said:

This is a slight variation on this theme. Does a ball have to be touching the flag stick to be resting on it? If part of the ball is beneath the surface of the green and the ball is being supported by the stick but with a thin leaf in between, is the ball holed then?

 

Yes, it is. Equally a ball is holed if is lies on a frog in the hole and not touching the hole or the hole liner (former Decision exists).

[ChrissyM]

Thanks, I have a ref here saying that because it's not physically touching the pin that it doesn't fall under 13.2c and isn't holed. I suppose it depends how you would define the word "resting"

[Newby]

6 hours ago, ChrissyM said:

This is a slight variation on this theme. Does a ball have to be touching the flag stick to be resting on it? If part of the ball is beneath the surface of the green and the ball is being supported by the stick but with a thin leaf in between, is the ball holed then?

If the ball is marked and lifted, the leaf removed and the ball replaced, it is now holed 😉

[antip]

9 hours ago, ChrissyM said:

This is a slight variation on this theme. Does a ball have to be touching the flag stick to be resting on it? If part of the ball is beneath the surface of the green and the ball is being supported by the stick but with a thin leaf in between, is the ball holed then?

That's an interesting question and I am not aware of any official answer. But let me add, this is not what you might consider a very likely event -ball somehow gets against the flag and partly below the surface of the green but a leaf prevents the ball actually touching the flag.

Well that leaf is not part of the lie of the ball (see the definition of "lie") so the lie of the ball is against the flagstick, but then the ball is not actually touching the flagstick.

One for the Ruling Bodies to resolve, IMO - two different parts of the Official Guide point you to different answers.