When is the ball actually holed?

[Mr. Bean]

33 minutes ago, antip said:

That's an interesting question and I am not aware of any official answer. But let me add, this is not what you might consider a very likely event -ball somehow gets against the flag and partly below the surface of the green but a leaf prevents the ball actually touching the flag.

 

 

I remember a case in which the flag had fallen from the pin down onto the hole and a ball ended up lying on the flag above the hole. I cannot remember the outcome but I believe it was possibly Newby who described this case some years back. In the same thread there was a case in which a large (maple ?) leaf covered the hole. Cannot remember the outcome then either but I think it was the same as Newby wrote in his latest post, i.e. once the leaf is removed the ball is holed.

 

IMO this particular case at hand is very clear. As Newby wrote, you may remove the leaf and after that the ball is touching the pin and is holed by Definition.

[Pastit]

28 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I remember a case in which the flag had fallen from the pin down onto the hole and a ball ended up lying on the flag above the hole. I cannot remember the outcome but I believe it was possibly Newby who described this case some years back. In the same thread there was a case in which a large (maple ?) leaf covered the hole. Cannot remember the outcome then either but I think it was the same as Newby wrote in his latest post, i.e. once the leaf is removed the ball is holed.

 

IMO this particular case at hand is very clear. As Newby wrote, you may remove the leaf and after that the ball is touching the pin and is holed by Definition.

Adding ANO factor: are we allowed to tap the flagstick with a club should the ball be trapped between the flagstick and the hole-edge but part of ball remain above the hole ? 
 

I ask since it was banned previously but no penalty was applied to Richard Sternie in the Sun City on his acting so.

[Newby]

18 minutes ago, Pastit said:

Adding ANO factor: are we allowed to tap the flagstick with a club should the ball be trapped between the flagstick and the hole-edge but part of ball remain above the hole ? 
 

I ask since it was banned previously but no penalty was applied to Richard Sternie in the Sun City on his acting so.

Wasn't that just a Covid thing? It no longer applies in the UK.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Newby

[Pastit]

2 minutes ago, Newby said:

Wasn't that just a Covid restriction? It no longer applies in the UK.

The Sternie case was well pre-Covid and, as I stated, the rule was a penalty would apply. I suppose it’s a stroke at the ball via something interposed. It’s taken the blue-blazer guys c 100 years to move into the last century. 

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, Pastit said:

Adding ANO factor: are we allowed to tap the flagstick with a club should the ball be trapped between the flagstick and the hole-edge but part of ball remain above the hole ? 
 

I ask since it was banned previously but no penalty was applied to Richard Sternie in the Sun City on his acting so.

 

[Colin L]

There is nothing to stop you  from tapping the flagstick with a club if you prefer to pick your ball off the bottom of the hole, but there is no need  since the ball is already holed.  I wouldn't as it's further to bend.

 

I

Edited December 20, 2021 by Colin L

[Pastit]

7 minutes ago, Colin L said:

There is nothing to stop you  from tapping the flagstick with a club if you prefer to pick your ball off the bottom of the hole, but there is no need  since the ball is already holed.  I wouldn't as it's further to bend.

 

I

I think you miss my point. If the ball is NOT HOLED can the stick be moved or tapped with the club under current rules. Previous rules applied a penalty. 
 

The flagstick was tilted by hand previously. 

[Colin L]

6 minutes ago, Pastit said:

I think you miss my point. If the ball is NOT HOLED can the stick be moved or tapped with the club under current rules. Previous rules applied a penalty. 
 

The flagstick was tilted by hand previously. 

You described a ball trapped between the flagstick and the hole edge with part of it above the hole.  The other part of it must be below surface of the green.  The ball is, by definition, holed.

 

I think you are missing Rule 13.2c.

https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-13#13-2c

 

[Pastit]

3 minutes ago, Colin L said:

You described a ball trapped between the flagstick and the hole edge with part of it above the hole.  The other part of it must be below surface of the green.  The ball is, by definition, holed.

 

I think you are missing Rule 13.2c.

https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-13#13-2c

 

My apologies, I even read the rule-changes summary last week after missing 5-years of golf. Thanks for pointing that out. Old age - a terrible thing. Must be worse than the menopause !

[davep043]

1 hour ago, Pastit said:

 It’s taken the blue-blazer guys c 100 years to move into the last century. 

 

28 minutes ago, Pastit said:

My apologies, I even read the rule-changes summary last week after missing 5-years of golf. Thanks for pointing that out. Old age - a terrible thing. Must be worse than the menopause !

Apparently you didn't notice that the "blue blazer guys" have completely passed you by.  But more seriously, welcome back to golf!

[Pastit]

19 minutes ago, davep043 said:

 

Apparently you didn't notice that the "blue blazer guys" have completely passed you by.  But more seriously, welcome back to golf!

Thank you, very kind. For me, it’s nice to see, albeit after many years, that common sense has been adopted in many areas. 
 

However, there remain one or two issues which might still be adopted, either by the 2 bodies or local rules. Don’t know if you’ve thought about these and apologies if slightly off-thread:

 

Replay shots hitting cart-paths as is normally done with overhead cables with local rules.

 

Cover sprinkler-heads with astro turf.

 

Use plastic flagsticks. 
 

Make blue blazers compulsory on courses. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Pastit
Punctuation

[Mr. Bean]

17 minutes ago, Pastit said:

1) Replay shots hitting cart-paths as is normally done with overhead cables with local rules.

 

2) Cover sprinkler-heads with astro turf.

 

3) Use plastic flagsticks. 
 

4) Make blue blazers compulsory on courses. 

 

1) Why? There is a good reason for replaying strokes hitting overhead cables but cannot see any for what you propose.

 

2) Again why? How often your ball bounces off from one? Or are they visually non-appealling to you?

 

3) Plastic / carbon fiber flagsticks are commonly used around here.

 

4) Maybe with a temperature limit? Would be tough with 25°C and more...

 

[Pastit]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

1) Why? There is a good reason for replaying strokes hitting overhead cables but cannot see any for what you propose.

 

2) Again why? How often your ball bounces off from one? Or are they visually non-appealling to you?

 

3) Plastic / carbon fiber flagsticks are commonly used around here.

 

4) Maybe with a temperature limit? Would be tough with 25°C and more...

 

Well for the same reason as power cables. Applies to points 1 and 2, non- natural surfaces leading to random results. I’ve seen some silly results from cartpath-hits including a drive of mine at Penina. 
 

I was thinking particularly of random results in top tournaments. Point 3 -  would have saved Rory ripping his shirt in Dubai. 
 

Do you believe it’s equitable for one stray shot from any of these above should decide the Race to Dubai ? Seems grossly inequitable to me with so much at stake yet easily corrected in pro-events.  Nice of you to take the trouble to comment and well done on the flagsticks. 

[Mr. Bean]

1 minute ago, Pastit said:

a) Well for the same reason as power cables. Applies to points 1 and 2, non- natural surfaces leading to random results. I’ve seen some silly results from cartpath-hits including a drive of mine at Penina. 
 

b) I was thinking particularly of random results in top tournaments. Point 3 -  would have saved Rory ripping his shirt in Dubai. 
 

c) Do you believe it’s equitable for one stray shot from any of these above should decide the Race to Dubai ? Seems grossly inequitable to me with so much at stake yet easily corrected in pro-events.  Nice of you to take the trouble to comment and well done on the flagsticks. 

 

a) Not even close. Cables may cross the fairway while cart paths are most often out of the way (certainly there are exceptions). Thus hitting a cable may be a result of a perfect drive in the middle of the fairway while a ball hitting a cart path is seldom a result of a good stroke.

 

b) I am not familiar with that event so cannot comment. Had a problem hitting the flagstick? Learn to be more accurate 😉

 

c) Race to Dubai is not a single round of golf but tens of them. On any round you may and often will have some undesirable luck resulting to an additional score. Role of luck cannot and IMHO should not be eliminated.

 

[Pastit]

28 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

a) Not even close. Cables may cross the fairway while cart paths are most often out of the way (certainly there are exceptions). Thus hitting a cable may be a result of a perfect drive in the middle of the fairway while a ball hitting a cart path is seldom a result of a good stroke.

 

b) I am not familiar with that event so cannot comment. Had a problem hitting the flagstick? Learn to be more accurate 😉

 

c) Race to Dubai is not a single round of golf but tens of them. On any round you may and often will have some undesirable luck resulting to an additional score. Role of luck cannot and IMHO should not be eliminated.

 

I’d be wasting my time to comment further having played on a course for 35years with laterally-situated power lines. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Pastit
Omission

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, Pastit said:

My apologies, I even read the rule-changes summary last week after missing 5-years of golf. Thanks for pointing that out. Old age - a terrible thing. Must be worse than the menopause !

Not having experienced the latter, I wouldn't know. 🙂   But regarding the vicissitudes of ageing, I'm well familiar with those, taking comfort, however, from the oft-repeated truism that growing old is far preferable to the alternative.  Or, as an old acquaintance I hadn't seen in years more pithily said when I encountered him on a return visit to ancestral territory in Kintyre, "Aye, I'm fine.  I'm still above the ground".

Edited December 20, 2021 by Colin L

[nsxguy]

33 minutes ago, Pastit said:

Well for the same reason as power cables. Applies to points 1 and 2, non- natural surfaces leading to random results. I’ve seen some silly results from cartpath-hits including a drive of mine at Penina. 
 

I was thinking particularly of random results in top tournaments. Point 3 -  would have saved Rory ripping his shirt in Dubai. 
 

Do you believe it’s equitable for one stray shot from any of these above should decide the Race to Dubai ? Seems grossly inequitable to me with so much at stake yet easily corrected in pro-events.  Nice of you to take the trouble to comment and well done on the flagsticks. 

 

So then a ball hitting ANY obstruction should be a "do over" ?

I've seen some silly results too. How about when you hit the cart path and it jumps back towards the green and ends up just short of it instead of bouncing into the water ? Do over ?

 

You hit a ball way right, it slows down and just barely rolls over a cart path and into a penalty area ? You should get a "do over" ?

 

Most common complaint about golf is it takes too long.

 

Tiger hit the flagstick at Augusta not once but twice. He should've gotten a "do over" on both of them ?

 

Don't worry about Rory. He's got plenty of shirts.

 

 

 

[antip]

23 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I remember a case in which the flag had fallen from the pin down onto the hole and a ball ended up lying on the flag above the hole. I cannot remember the outcome but I believe it was possibly Newby who described this case some years back. In the same thread there was a case in which a large (maple ?) leaf covered the hole. Cannot remember the outcome then either but I think it was the same as Newby wrote in his latest post, i.e. once the leaf is removed the ball is holed.

 

IMO this particular case at hand is very clear. As Newby wrote, you may remove the leaf and after that the ball is touching the pin and is holed by Definition.

I don't support this view. Currently (post 2019) if your ball is over the hole, partly below the lip, and a leaf is preventing your ball from dropping and your ball is not in contact with the flagstick, the ball is not holed. If you move the leaf and the ball moves, it must be replaced on the lip of the hole. This scenario was explicitly discussed in the Grant Moir "Rules from the Garden" video last year, noting the answer has changed compared with pre-2019. I don't see any significant difference with this current scenario. By definition the ball is not holed, and if the ball moves as a result of moving the leaf, if must be placed at the nearest place where it will come to rest, which is the lip of the hole.

So while it is a "call me if it happens" scenario, it is one for RBs to answer IMO. 

[Purple Toupee]

If it isn’t holed, then it must be on the green.  Can’t I mark the ball, lift it, and remove the leaf?  Then when I replace it against the stick, is it now holed?

[davep043]

54 minutes ago, Purple Toupee said:

If it isn’t holed, then it must be on the green.  Can’t I mark the ball, lift it, and remove the leaf?  Then when I replace it against the stick, is it now holed?

This is pretty clear in the Rules, refer to the definition of Holed, and to Rule 13.2c for a ball resting against the flagstick.  If it is leaning against the flagstick, and ANY of the ball is below the level of the green, it is holed.  If none of the ball is below the level of the green, it is not holed.  If it is not leaning against the flagstick, and is not completely below the level of the green, it is not holed.  If you mark a ball on the Putting Green and remove a Loose Impediment, you must replace the ball on its original position (meaning both horizontal and vertical location (14.2c)).  If the ball will not stay in that position, you must place it at the nearest place where it will remain at rest (14.2e).  

[sui generis]

Why not go all out reductio on this one? The ball seemingly resting against the flagstick is likely resting against a thin layer of dust and grime coating the flagstick. Ergo, not holed. 😉

[Mr. Bean]

Following Sui's thinking there might be a small clod of dirt on the ball and that dirt prevents the ball actually touching the flagstick.

 

Sounds pretty stupid to me to add one more stroke to a player just because there is a small leaf between the ball and the flagstick. Besides, R13.2c does not say the ball has to TOUCH the flagstick but must be leaning against it, there is a big difference.

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[Purple Toupee]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

This is pretty clear in the Rules, refer to the definition of Holed, and to Rule 13.2c for a ball resting against the flagstick.  If it is leaning against the flagstick, and ANY of the ball is below the level of the green, it is holed.  If none of the ball is below the level of the green, it is not holed.  If it is not leaning against the flagstick, and is not completely below the level of the green, it is not holed.  If you mark a ball on the Putting Green and remove a Loose Impediment, you must replace the ball on its original position (meaning both horizontal and vertical location (14.2c)).  If the ball will not stay in that position, you must place it at the nearest place where it will remain at rest (14.2e).  

I’m asking Antip if he doesn’t believe the ball is holed because there is a leaf between the ball and the pin, is it holed after I mark and remove the leaf as long as I can replace it against the pin?

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

Why not go all out reductio on this one? The ball seemingly resting against the flagstick is likely resting against a thin layer of dust and grime coating the flagstick. Ergo, not holed. 😉

 

 

With all due respect, especially to YOU, IF this situation (ball/leaf/flagstick) actually DOES result in an "extra" stroke, it certainly adds fuel to the fire of the "Rules am stupid" crowd.

 

[Pastit]

7 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

With all due respect, especially to YOU, IF this situation (ball/leaf/flagstick) actually DOES result in an "extra" stroke, it certainly adds fuel to the fire of the "Rules am stupid" crowd.

 

Our leaders have an unenviable task in drafting rules in brief for the problem situations met with in the large numbers of countries with active golf programmes now and the various climates and geomorphology met with. This is where the additional book “ Decisions on the Rules “ assists. 

[Mr. Bean]

For some mysterious reason I cannot post anything with a quote in it so I have to use an alternative method.

 

Davep043 wrote:

This is pretty clear in the Rules, refer to the definition of Holed, and to Rule 13.2c for a ball resting against the flagstick.  If it is leaning against the flagstick, and ANY of the ball is below the level of the green, it is holed.  If none of the ball is below the level of the green, it is not holed.  If it is not leaning against the flagstick, and is not completely below the level of the green, it is not holed.  If you mark a ball on the Putting Green and remove a Loose Impediment, you must replace the ball on its original position (meaning both horizontal and vertical location (14.2c)).  If the ball will not stay in that position, you must place it at the nearest place where it will remain at rest (14.2e).  

 

This (bolded) I see as the crux of this issue and in the scenario described both requirements are fulfilled. If I am leaning against a wall with a glove in my hand would someone really claim that I am not leaning against that wall because I am not touching it with my bare hand..?

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[Mr. Bean]

@Pastit: that book 'Decisions on the Rules of Golf'  exists no longer.

[Pastit]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

@Pastit: that book 'Decisions on the Rules of Golf'  exists no longer.

Maybe because there are few precedents so far for disputes arising under the latest rules given the widespread changes. I’m confident it will arise from the ashes, 

[nsxguy]

8 minutes ago, Pastit said:

Our leaders have an unenviable task in drafting rules in brief for the problem situations met with in the large numbers of countries with active golf programmes now and the various climates and geomorphology met with. This is where the additional book “ Decisions on the Rules “ assists. 

 

 They're now called "Interpretations" and there doesn't seem to be one for 13.2(c), "Ball Resting Against Flagstick in Hole".

[antip]

18 hours ago, Purple Toupee said:

I’m asking Antip if he doesn’t believe the ball is holed because there is a leaf between the ball and the pin, is it holed after I mark and remove the leaf as long as I can replace it against the pin?

I believe the ball is not holed because it doesn't meet the requirements of 13.2c : "If a player's ball COMES TO REST AGAINST the flagstick left in the hole...". Marking, lifting and replacing is not, IMO, an acceptable substitute that qualifies as a ball coming to rest against the flagstick.