Will the pivot happen on its own? Or consciously

[PracticeSwinger]

We all know of the lovely root causes (the vast majority of them at setup, in the early stages of the backswing and a few at the top / in transition) that causes our bodies to have to stall, flip : compensate in order to somehow catch the ball on its way…

 

And suppose one has never experienced much of an aggressive pivot (trap and compress / exit left) because of some the aforementioned root causes… but somehow can work on cleaning up setup / backswing / sequencing mismatches in transition… with good early recentering and lead pressure…

 

Will the pivot automatically happen or do you guys still have to consciously try and think about it (in transition?) in the short amount of time the downswing happens?

 

I’m asking because I see a lot, and I mean a lot of guys here and at every range trying to work on this - ‘opening up’ / ‘turning the corner’… and I’m wondering if it’s because it’s their missing piece (and have to think about it - because of a more ‘down the line’ release?)… or are they just not working on the right earlier issues and this would take care of itself…

[CasualLie]

Very good questions.  I find the more I fixate on pivot, the worse I hit it.  So I try to work on the peripheral things.  

 

I am generally in the camp of the pivot happens on its own, but I do notice as you age or are just not that flexible, you cannot neglect finishing the swing.  I get this tendency to "quit on it". I know this is actually not happening, but because I focus so much more in practice / drills / mirror work on the back swing and transition, I totally forget that the club needs to keep on moving after impact, don't just slap at it.

 

I marvel though at the LPGA swings, and some of the tour guys at how open they are at impact.  I am trying to my own version of it, but I know it is not even close.  Mainly because I just don't move that way that fast.  It doesn't stop me from hitting good shots, but it sure is impressive how they pivot.  Maybe next year I will work on it...but doubt it.

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

I can get 45* open with a good looking swing and hit it like crap and short.  7 years ago when I was younger and thinner I got more open.

 

Throughout golf history there is a wide range of how much individuals got open. 
 

If you believe different body types will produce different impact conditions…this all points to it being ridiculous to chase X amount.  Even more ridiculous is for a middle aged, over weight, desk sitting 40 hour a week 12 handicap to think he should, “Get as open as the pros.”

 

It has been my experience that there are significantly more golfers stalling and getting less open than they should because they are chasing getting open, than there are golfers who need to consciously get the body open more.  On my lesson tee it’s about 10-1.

 

The number of golfers who got more open when they stopped chasing getting open is as close to 100% as saying, “Not quite everyone,” will allow.

 

What makes all of this more scary is I have seen no metric that says an individual getting more open with faster hips makes you better or hit it farther. 

Edited October 13, 2021 by MonteScheinblum

[PracticeSwinger]

1 minute ago, MonteScheinblum said:

It has been my experience that there are significantly more golfers stalling and getting less open than they should because they are chasing getting open, than there are golfers who need to consciously get the body open more.  On my lesson tee it’s about 10-1.

 

The number of golfers who got more open when they stopped chasing getting open is as close to 100% as saying, “Not quite everyone,” will allow.

I think that’s all we needed to know - we can lock this one up… thanks Monte!

[reefrash1043]

I agree with Monte here 100%. I always tried to get more open because I saw all the tour pros do it every week on TV. When I stopped focusing on getting open and just swung my arms my lower body reacted and I got more open than when trying. Like monte talks about, its all about syncing up the transition. Am I like DJ...no...but more like Louis. 

[MonteScheinblum]

Golf is strange.

 

No one sitting at a desk who plays rec softball wants to know how to or thinks they can hit an Oraldis Chapman 103 mph fastball.

 

No 5’-10” lawyer playing in his New York City fitness club basketball league wants to be able to dunk on a 7 footer like Lebrun James.

 

No anesthesiologist playing in a flag football; hospital league cares or wants to attempt to tackle Derrick Henry.

 

…but everyone wants to get open like the pros, have shaft lean like the pros and spin the ball back with their wedges like the pros….especially mortifying when not all pros get very open, have excessive shaft lean…and most balls that spin back are a mistake.

[b.helts]

3 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Golf is strange.

 

No one sitting at a desk who plays rec softball wants to know how to or thinks they can hit an Oraldis Chapman 103 mph fastball.

 

No 5’-10” lawyer playing in his New York City fitness club basketball league wants to be able to dunk on a 7 footer like Lebrun James.

 

No anesthesiologist playing in a flag football; hospital league cares or wants to attempt to tackle Derrick Henry.

 

…but everyone wants to get open like the pros, have shaft lean like the pros and spin the ball back with their wedges like the pros….especially mortifying when not all pros get very open, have excessive shaft lean…and most balls that spin back are a mistake.

 

But how can I hit it tight to that front pin, over the water, if I don’t land it 8 paces past and rip it back?

[milesgiles]

4 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Golf is strange.

 

No one sitting at a desk who plays rec softball wants to know how to or thinks they can hit an Oraldis Chapman 103 mph fastball.

 

No 5’-10” lawyer playing in his New York City fitness club basketball league wants to be able to dunk on a 7 footer like Lebrun James.

 

No anesthesiologist playing in a flag football; hospital league cares or wants to attempt to tackle Derrick Henry.

 

…but everyone wants to get open like the pros, have shaft lean like the pros and spin the ball back with their wedges like the pros….especially mortifying when not all pros get very open, have excessive shaft lean…and most balls that spin back are a mistake.

 

the difference in golf is that very, very occassionally, all of us will hit a shot just as good as prime Tiger. So of course we think we just have to repeat whatever we think we did to acheive it again..

[MonteScheinblum]

1 minute ago, b.helts said:

 

But how can I hit it tight to that front pin, over the water, if I don’t land it 8 paces past and rip it back?

Damn, I left a few out.

 

Let me not forget ams trying a risky flop shot from a place that Tiger and Phil could not get close because the conditions won’t allow it.

 

The equivalent of taking off from the 3 point line and dunking the ball.

[CasualLie]

Fair points about unrealistic expectations, but aren’t teaching pros a little bit to blame for that?  The first time a teaching pro did a side by side of their victim of the day with Tiger in the video room, it almost all went downhill from there.  Thankfully 3-D, motion sensors, and force plates got it all on the right track!

[CasualLie]

By the way @MonteScheinblum  that last podcast with Hal / Chase was great stuff.  I wish I didn’t have my club championship this weekend, your clinic with Hal/Chase looks like it will be awesome.

[Socrates]

4 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Damn, I left a few out.

 

Let me not forget ams trying a risky flop shot from a place that Tiger and Phil could not get close because the conditions won’t allow it.

 

The equivalent of taking off from the 3 point line and dunking the ball.

I sometimes forget Rule # 1 - Get it on the green!!!  

 

Anywhere that gives me a putt at the hole. 

 

But every once in a while, I think I'm Phil and try that flopodopolus hero shot and get burned. 

[MonteScheinblum]

4 minutes ago, CasualLie said:

Fair points about unrealistic expectations, but aren’t teaching pros a little bit to blame for that?  The first time a teaching pro did a side by side of their victim of the day with Tiger in the video room, it almost all went downhill from there.  Thankfully 3-D, motion sensors, and force plates got it all on the right track!

Side by side with a pro serves only one purpose.  When you’re given a realistic goal of achieving a proper movement or setup, you need to know what it looks like.   It’s a guideline, not a goal and the difference is not a fine line.

 

 “Here’s Tiger’s swing, copy this.” 🤮

[PracticeSwinger]

Haha - I hope those comments on different sports pros and ams comparison weren’t directed at me (as the OP) but just general concepts that are seen on the ranges worldwide - I’m just a newbie trying to figure out how this new hobby (passion?) works and wants to benefit from those that know a lot more than me!

[MonteScheinblum]

6 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

Haha - I hope those comments on different sports pros and ams comparison weren’t directed at me (as the OP) but just general concepts that are seen on the ranges worldwide - I’m just a newbie trying to figure out how this new hobby (passion?) works and wants to benefit from those that know a lot more than me!

To all golfers.

[jomatty]

45 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Golf is strange.

 

No one sitting at a desk who plays rec softball wants to know how to or thinks they can hit an Oraldis Chapman 103 mph fastball.

 

No 5’-10” lawyer playing in his New York City fitness club basketball league wants to be able to dunk on a 7 footer like Lebrun James.

 

No anesthesiologist playing in a flag football; hospital league cares or wants to attempt to tackle Derrick Henry.

 

…but everyone wants to get open like the pros, have shaft lean like the pros and spin the ball back with their wedges like the pros….especially mortifying when not all pros get very open, have excessive shaft lean…and most balls that spin back are a mistake.

But isn’t that kind of the thing about golf.  I can’t ever dunk on Lebron, but every now and again I can hit it stiff it like Tiger. Sometimes I can even do it for awhile.   Golf is maddening the way it gives you just enough to make you think if just a few more pieces came together you could consistently swing like a pro.  Not saying it makes any sense at all but just that it is a very different game than other professional sports/game.  It messes with your head in a way that makes you think “if only I could get my xyz right, I’d be onto something”.

[Zitlow]

Crimp your left quadratus laborem which causes you to step to your right foot while extending your right knee as you free up your left heel, flex your left knee and turn. The momentum takes you to the top. Then reverse by crimping your right QL while stepping on your left foot, extending your left knee, flexing your right knee and freeing up your right heel by picking it up. 

 

Freeing up your right heel and flexing your right knee allows your right side to rotate into the ball like a swinging gate around your left leg post putting a hurt on the golf ball. 

 

The crimping allows the bottom of your spine to swing like a pendulum moving your COM to the right and then to the left which creates power. The C7 (back of the neck) swing circle center won't sway so you have precision as well. 

 

 

QL, you have one on each side. A sheet of muscle that attaches to the bottom of your ribcage, your spine and the top of your hip. Get the feel for working the QL's and your pivot takes care of itself. 

 

 

PS: My apologies for the long post. 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Zitlow

[PracticeSwinger]

20 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

Crimp your left quadratus laborem which causes you to step to your right foot while extending your right knee as you free up your left heel, flex your left knee and turn. The momentum takes you to the top. Then reverse by crimping your right QL while stepping on your left foot, extending your left knee, flexing your right knee and freeing up your right heel by picking it up. 

 

Freeing up your right heel and flexing your right knee allows your right side to rotate into the ball like a swinging gate around your left leg post putting a hurt on the golf ball. 

 

The crimping allows the bottom of your spine to swing like a pendulum moving your COM to the right and then to the left which creates power. The C7 (back of the neck) swing circle center won't sway so you have precision as well. 

 

 

QL, you have one on each side. A sheet of muscle that attaches to the bottom of your ribcage, your spine and the top of your hip. Get the feel for working the QL's and your pivot takes care of itself. 

 

 

PS: My apologies for the long post. 

 

 

Interesting… isn’t the quadratus lumborum the muscle that gets tight because is has to support every other imbalances, weakness that we have in every other muscles surrounding it?… i.e. lower back pain because of the beer belly?… will try and feel this

[Fairway14]

9 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

We all know of the lovely root causes (the vast majority of them at setup, in the early stages of the backswing and a few at the top / in transition) that causes our bodies to have to stall, flip : compensate in order to somehow catch the ball on its way…

 

And suppose one has never experienced much of an aggressive pivot (trap and compress / exit left) because of some the aforementioned root causes… but somehow can work on cleaning up setup / backswing / sequencing mismatches in transition… with good early recentering and lead pressure…

 

Will the pivot automatically happen or do you guys still have to consciously try and think about it (in transition?) in the short amount of time the downswing happens?

 

I’m asking because I see a lot, and I mean a lot of guys here and at every range trying to work on this - ‘opening up’ / ‘turning the corner’… and I’m wondering if it’s because it’s their missing piece (and have to think about it - because of a more ‘down the line’ release?)… or are they just not working on the right earlier issues and this would take care of itself…

 

If address posture technique (grip-posture-alignment) is fundamentally sound then an effective pivot (and all the other good factors of a swing) will naturally happen.

[Hilts1969]

 

I do believe if you haven’t been using your pivot for years it may need work. The AMG guys have a drill from a good P6 position as most have never released properly. If transition was a cure all there would be no need. I think it’s a problem to throw at it when under the gun so to speak. The new feeling of having the club(not arms) trailing is a tough one. I hit pull hooks because mentally i stall because I’m scared the club face will be so closed when it gets there. Ironic really I’m hitting the shot I hate by trying not to hit it.

 

i also think this flexibility lark is massively over done, we are talking about open hips and a bit of right side bend here not a double back somersault with 3 twists.

[golfarb1]

In the Jan 1999 Golf Magazine, Mike Malaska  was featured on the front cover with the title “How good can you get; 5 ( mobility ) TESTS to help you find and reach your potential.”

Although these tests need to be updated to reflect current knowledge, the idea that golfers need to improve their mobility is as applicable  now as it was then . 
No matter high good the instruction, a golfer’s underlying physical capabilities will limit their potential  and their ability to make the changes that their instructor suggests. 
So for the vast majority of golfers, the first place to start  to improve is not at the golf course ,  but with a fitness professional , who has a background in kinesiology and the golf swing. 

[Pepperturbo]

My pivot left is natural, no thought. 

 

Without screwing it up, I can't imagine anyone with a proper setup and action, purposely thinking about their pivot as it happens. 🙂

 

[MikeSierra]

Amateurs' take on it from one who hasn't pivoted well for at least a decade... and just my own experience

 

If I try and consciously pivot [and swing with that swing thought alone] I generally do. But I'll also probably leave my arms way behind... Insert shanks and snap-hooks here. If I do everything before P6 in a competent fashion and then consciously pivot I may or my not [depending if my head gets in the way].

 

If I swing my arms without moving my body/trunk in a fashion that is in to out [think to the right or first base] then add a body motion to compliment that in to out with the arms and bring the club back on plane and down the line, instant pivot with no thought of it.

[Zitlow]

@Pepperturbo is right, thinking about the swing slows down the reflexes. The pivot and hand action have to be trained which doesn't take long until they become a reflex pattern so you can do it without thinking about it. 

 

The reason Austin and Dunaway hit the ball so far was they used their pivot for power and their hands for speed. 

[Hilts1969]

3 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

In the Jan 1999 Golf Magazine, Mike Malaska  was featured on the front cover with the title “How good can you get; 5 ( mobility ) TESTS to help you find and reach your potential.”

Although these tests need to be updated to reflect current knowledge, the idea that golfers need to improve their mobility is as applicable  now as it was then . 
No matter high good the instruction, a golfer’s underlying physical capabilities will limit their potential  and their ability to make the changes that their instructor suggests. 
So for the vast majority of golfers, the first place to start  to improve is not at the golf course ,  but with a fitness professional , who has a background in kinesiology and the golf swing. 

 

John Daly and Colin Montgomerie amongst others say hi:-)

[golfarb1]

20 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

John Daly and Colin Montgomerie amongst others say hi:-)

 

[Hilts1969]

54 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

 

 

Gym and yoga everyday 

[MPStrat]

A few big caveats with rotation IMO.
 

Number one is that 90 some percent of golfers swing across the ball. There is a misconception that rotation=right path and draws. All things being equal, increased rotation brings the path more left or less right. Good for some, absolutely unplayable for others. If your path is neutral or to the left and you don’t currently rotate much and you try to, it’s almost certain death. 

 

Number two and this starts in the backswing, is that people think of rotation as spinning their butt or their shoulders. They hear restricting the hips is bad, so they spin their butt and have a hip turn that doesn’t resemble anything that’s ever been done by a decent golfer. Pro golfers lose flex in the trail leg for good reason but they rarely have a huge turn of the entire pelvis. The same goes for the downswing, some hear “rotate” and spin their butt instead of learning how to use their feet legs and hip JOINTS which is IMO, completely counterintuitive. 
 

Lastly, there is a lot of talk about how doing something with the arms and hands will actually cause a chain reaction that will result in a player rotating like a tour pro. “If you just swing the arms and hands in a certain way you will rotate better.” 99% of the time that’s not true. However, very often unless a player addresses how the arms and hands are working, they can’t begin to address the body. 

 

 

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

Well said

[PracticeSwinger]

17 hours ago, MPStrat said:

A few big caveats with rotation IMO.
 

Number one is that 90 some percent of golfers swing across the ball. There is a misconception that rotation=right path and draws. All things being equal, increased rotation brings the path more left or less right. Good for some, absolutely unplayable for others. If your path is neutral or to the left and you don’t currently rotate much and you try to, it’s almost certain death. 

 

Number two and this starts in the backswing, is that people think of rotation as spinning their butt or their shoulders. They hear restricting the hips is bad, so they spin their butt and have a hip turn that doesn’t resemble anything that’s ever been done by a decent golfer. Pro golfers lose flex in the trail leg for good reason but they rarely have a huge turn of the entire pelvis. The same goes for the downswing, some hear “rotate” and spin their butt instead of learning how to use their feet legs and hip JOINTS which is IMO, completely counterintuitive. 
 

Lastly, there is a lot of talk about how doing something with the arms and hands will actually cause a chain reaction that will result in a player rotating like a tour pro. “If you just swing the arms and hands in a certain way you will rotate better.” 99% of the time that’s not true. However, very often unless a player addresses how the arms and hands are working, they can’t begin to address the body. 

Excellent post - on all accounts...

 

On path; being a relative newbie - I can't help to trust the fact that the desired result is to move the path 'left-ier' at the bottom - and always fight a down the line release... seems that there is a trigger in my head saying: 'man, that can't be right, must be so much OTT'... guess it's a process

 

On pelvis and rotation - tough for newbies to figure out how to move their pelvis / hips... right hip maxing out early, that left hip sinking in towards the ball at the end of the backswing / at the top - no chance but EE, stall, flip to catch the ball on the way down... pretty conterintuitive as you mention to figure out the proper way to 'move away' with the left hip joint staying put and the right hip joint pushing back but just a tad in the backswing (perfect example is Morikawa IMO)... and even tougher (for me anyway) to recenter at the top, apply lead pressure enabling that 'clearing' action without the shoulders spinning out (and finding proper extension to flexion of the trail side)

 

On the last part, do you refer as trying to add hands depth (enabling a more in-out swing that would help rotation) but that causes disconnection / sequence issues?... and needing more of the Justin Rose drill arms-hands movement to sync up with the body, to be able to pivot hard...