Why Tiger has had so many surgeries

[chillybilly]

May I offer a partially tongue-in-cheek theory?

 

The theory is that top athletes have surgery often simply because they can and they want to.  Top athletes don't just have any old surgeons available but often those surgeons are the leaders and/or pioneers in their field.  The athletes' competitive nature is a given and obviously they have a massive amount of confirmation bias when it comes to the 'sales pitch' from the surgeon and the athlete convinces himself (or is convinced by others) that he will be as good as new or, with some surgeries like Tommy John, even better.  Obviously, repair of catastrophic and/or chronic injury is non-negotiable.

 

I've always been somewhat amazed at the frequency of surgery in sports in general.  There are contact sports like football & hockey where surgical intervention is inevitable, of course, but baseball, soccer, Olympic sports etc all seem to regularly feature stories of operations.

 

I suppose I'm comparing this to personal experience and those of various friends and acquaintances where the most commonly-told tale is a doctor saying 'Well, we could operate but PT/rehab are probably best for you.'  In terms of outcomes, sometimes yes, sometimes no.  Now...is this REALLY the doctor's view or is he taking into account (literally and figuratively) the view of the insurance provider who discourages surgical intervention? 

 

Granted, this is all anecdotal, even speculative, but one example might be something we're almost all familiar with:  golf elbow aka tennis elbow aka epicondylitis.  Some doctors will order a cortisone shot, sometimes more than one, despite the side effects and despite the fact that it's mostly masking the problem.  PT/rehab types will prescribe all manner of stretches, therapy ball exercises, heat/ice/massage etc. But I've met numerous patients who doggedly pursued surgery/surgeons, had their elbow tendon repaired and and have the little keyhole scar to prove it.  And they rave about the effect and improvement as well as the much shorter and predictable time frame to return to normal.

 

Of course, post-op rehab and strengthening is part and parcel of surgery but the point is that athletes pursue surgery as a more rapid and sure-fire fix and because they have a rather obsessive desire to return to competition and/or because being sidelined is costing them money and/or because their doctors, freed in part or in whole from meddling from bean counters, are more candid about and encouraging of surgery.

 

In Tiger's case, he probably became convinced everything was fixable given the changes in his golf swing as noted above.  Why should surgery be any different.  Obviously, as also noted upthread, knees and backs are high-stakes but needs must.

[Ghostwedge]

10 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Well, lots of golfers over the decades way overweight with no major back or knee issues. 
 

TW added about 20 pounds, prolly a good 15 of that muscle. And that was over years. Generally, fitness and adding muscle will protect your core, back, and joints. 

I think the latter part of your statement is on target. Violent swing, hundreds of thousands of times, with technique that, combined with underlying injuries that he added to with the running (and dopey seal thing, perhaps) and it set him on this path to injury.

 

Look at BK. I think he did something to his knee just by accident stepping weird, not even from swinging, and it seems to be an ongoing problem now. 

20 lbs ? Better redo the math, high school pics tell me he was 6'0 145-50 if that.

Few years later 6'1 155-60 max. Now 190 lbs. ? TW with to much WT. imo

 

[bscinstnct]

43 minutes ago, Ghostwedge said:

20 lbs ? Better redo the math, high school pics tell me he was 6'0 145-50 if that.

Few years later 6'1 155-60 max. Now 190 lbs. ? TW with to much WT. imo

 

 

TW hit tour 160 in 1996

 

By 2005, 9 years later at his “biggest” in 2005, he’s was 180-185 (tops). And now? I saw TW at the PGA at bethpage in 2019. He’s like 175. 
 

Here is with Rory. You seen Rory in person? He’s tiny, not even 160.

 

Rory, “I remember weighing myself at Torrey on the Sunday morning before going out to the final round, and I was like 155.”

 

TW taller but same basic build. 

Look TW waist. Very small, makes him look bigger than he is. 

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by bscinstnct

[Titleist84]

He's my favorite golfer and I hope he makes one last comeback to get to 18+ majors, but I don't see how he walks 72 holes at hilly courses like Augusta and competes with guys healthy and half his age.

 

Hoping he proves me wrong.

[Pepperturbo]

15 hours ago, golfandfishing said:

Is he gonna drive off a bridge?

Maybe, if he's following you... 🙂

 

[MK7Golf21]

9 hours ago, Valtiel said:

If high impact running weakened both knees then it's not hard to imagine that the lead one, the one put under more strain, could end up actually damaged/injured. Both knees could have been in similar shape, but the more strained one would obviously be the one to give out. 

well in that case it’s not really the running that caused the injury, It would be the golf swing which carries more force to the knee and caused it to fail. 
 

It’s like saying doing those lunges caused my acl to tear when I was deadlifting 600 pounds 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Redjeep83

[Pepperturbo]

5 hours ago, chillybilly said:

In Tiger's case, he probably became convinced everything was fixable given the changes in his golf swing as noted above.  Why should surgery be any different. 

Over recent years, don't think it takes much to convince professional jocks or even amateurs of that.  Orthopedic segment has become intertwined with athletes in all sports, some more than others. 

 

Three of my buddies are MDs.  One is a notable sport Orthopedic Surgeon.  He's said there's a common belief, depending on a person's body and reaction to rehab, certain surgeries can make parts of the body stronger than the original equipment. 

[bscinstnct]

18 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

Over recent years, don't think it takes much to convince professional jocks or even amateurs of that.  Orthopedic segment has become intertwined with athletes in all sports, some more than others. 

 

Three of my buddies are MDs.  One is a notable sport Orthopedic Surgeon.  He's said there's a common belief, depending on a person's body and reaction to rehab, certain surgeries can make parts of the body stronger than the original equipment. 

 

Interesting. Stronger? Perhaps.

 

Like a knee replacement is stronger than  a joint comprised of separate bones and sinew.

 

But better than Gods work? No way.

 

Besides superior functionality, the original joint is designed to blow out when subjected to too much force. Or you’d crack your femur through your skin and be dead instead of hobbled. 
 

 

. 

Edited October 16, 2021 by bscinstnct

[Soloman1]

If you earn your livelihood using your body, why would you not want to repair/enhance it?

 

Oh, wait... that's the motto of InstaGram.

[dcfas]

Whatever the specifics he made a bargain to achieve greatness. One part of the deal was his body.

[Pepperturbo]

1 minute ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Interesting. Stronger? Perhaps.

 

Like a knee replacement is stronger than  a joint comprised of separate bones and sinew.

 

But better than Gods work? No way.

 

Besides superior functionality, the original joint is designed to blow out when subjected to too much force. Or you’d crack your femur through your skin and be dead instead of hobbled. 
 

 

. 

I trust my Orthos opinion.  Sure there are excessive weight limits which can lead to stress fractures of the femur, but that's relative to one's skeletal structure; can't assume the same results for everyone. 

 

A persons skeletal structure depends on genetic endowment.  Look up 5'11 Pat Tillman, football player turned special forces operator.  Since HS, my body was similar, small for a linebacker, but he was fast and strong; 300lb guys didn't phase him.  I am only 5'10 and weigh 210lb today, but my max weight back in my 20s-30s was 230lbs.  I put a lot of stress on my body then.

 

Tiger's legs have always been spindles to his feet, minimal muscle structure... that's Gods work.  Under long-term pressure, stress fractures develop, and lead to various body failures.  Little leg bones can only carry so much muscle-mass.  You have a good wkend. 🙂

 

 

     

[ChipStrokes]

42 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

But better than Gods work? No way.

tell that to everyone opting to get tommy john in college and coming out the other side throwing 98. 

[dan360]

He came back too soon from the spine surgeries, a couple probably were more maintenance surgeries than full-on repairs.  It happens.  The spine is finicky. 

[Valtiel]

2 hours ago, Redjeep83 said:

well in that case it’s not really the running that caused the injury, It would be the golf swing which carries more force to the knee and caused it to fail. 
 

It’s like saying doing those lunges caused my acl to tear when I was deadlifting 600 pounds 

I mean sure, but that gets into semantics territory. Like saying it is technically not the bullet that kills you, but the loss of blood etc etc. There is a very real possibility that all the knee stuff in 2008 doesn't happen without Tiger's obsessive 4+ mile daily combat boot runs. And because it is all very much interconnected, maybe the back stuff doesn't happen either, or at least happens much later.

I do think much of this stuff was an inevitability, but one that was fast tracked by his obsessions with fairly high impact exercise.  

[bscinstnct]

2 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

I trust my Orthos opinion.  Sure there are excessive weight limits which can lead to stress fractures of the femur, but that's relative to one's skeletal structure; can't assume the same results for everyone. 

 

A persons skeletal structure depends on genetic endowment.  Look up 5'11 Pat Tillman, football player turned special forces operator.  Since HS, my body was similar, small for a linebacker, but he was fast and strong; 300lb guys didn't phase him.  I am only 5'10 and weigh 210lb today, but my max weight back in my 20s-30s was 230lbs.  I put a lot of stress on my body then.

 

Tiger's legs have always been spindles to his feet, minimal muscle structure... that's Gods work.  Under long-term pressure, stress fractures develop, and lead to various body failures.  Little leg bones can only carry so much muscle-mass.  You have a good wkend. 🙂

 

 

     

 

Cheers, you too ; )

 

210 at 5’10 is an enormous amount of muscle even with a big frame at under 20% body fat. 

Here is Hershel. Loaded with muscle. He was 220 in college but was 6’2. 

 

Not saying you but Most people think they “fill out” after HS and added muscle but it’s mostly fat. 
 

Like my buddy from Uncle Rico football. Back in the day, he was legit 6’1 and 185.  Huge frame, ankles size of a roll of toilet paper lol. 15% body fat, plenty of muscle. Nowhere near jacked but he could kick serious @ss. After college he got up to 230. He looked big and strong cause his frame. But it was all fat from eating Taco Bell 🤣

 

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by bscinstnct

[MtlJeff]

8 hours ago, chillybilly said:

May I offer a partially tongue-in-cheek theory?

 

The theory is that top athletes have surgery often simply because they can and they want to.  Top athletes don't just have any old surgeons available but often those surgeons are the leaders and/or pioneers in their field.  The athletes' competitive nature is a given and obviously they have a massive amount of confirmation bias when it comes to the 'sales pitch' from the surgeon and the athlete convinces himself (or is convinced by others) that he will be as good as new or, with some surgeries like Tommy John, even better.  Obviously, repair of catastrophic and/or chronic injury is non-negotiable.

 

I've always been somewhat amazed at the frequency of surgery in sports in general.  There are contact sports like football & hockey where surgical intervention is inevitable, of course, but baseball, soccer, Olympic sports etc all seem to regularly feature stories of operations.

 

I suppose I'm comparing this to personal experience and those of various friends and acquaintances where the most commonly-told tale is a doctor saying 'Well, we could operate but PT/rehab are probably best for you.'  In terms of outcomes, sometimes yes, sometimes no.  Now...is this REALLY the doctor's view or is he taking into account (literally and figuratively) the view of the insurance provider who discourages surgical intervention? 

 

Granted, this is all anecdotal, even speculative, but one example might be something we're almost all familiar with:  golf elbow aka tennis elbow aka epicondylitis.  Some doctors will order a cortisone shot, sometimes more than one, despite the side effects and despite the fact that it's mostly masking the problem.  PT/rehab types will prescribe all manner of stretches, therapy ball exercises, heat/ice/massage etc. But I've met numerous patients who doggedly pursued surgery/surgeons, had their elbow tendon repaired and and have the little keyhole scar to prove it.  And they rave about the effect and improvement as well as the much shorter and predictable time frame to return to normal.

 

Of course, post-op rehab and strengthening is part and parcel of surgery but the point is that athletes pursue surgery as a more rapid and sure-fire fix and because they have a rather obsessive desire to return to competition and/or because being sidelined is costing them money and/or because their doctors, freed in part or in whole from meddling from bean counters, are more candid about and encouraging of surgery.

 

In Tiger's case, he probably became convinced everything was fixable given the changes in his golf swing as noted above.  Why should surgery be any different.  Obviously, as also noted upthread, knees and backs are high-stakes but needs must.

 

It's an interesting theory and probably some truths in it. If it's ever 50/50 i mean they're gonna get it, whereas someone who lives in a place like say, Canada, where it's 2 years for a surgery because they are not a pro athlete--will not

 

But i think the main reason pro athletes get so many surgeries is because they exercise their bodies an insane amount more than any non pro athletes do, and that's just the odds.

 

Someone in the top 1% of physical shape at your local office, say some dude named Gary who does crossfit and plays flag football....he's still spending far less time doing physical stuff than a pro athlete. The odds are just over time they will tear something

[doc52]

13 hours ago, chillybilly said:

May I offer a partially tongue-in-cheek theory?

 

The theory is that top athletes have surgery often simply because they can and they want to.  Top athletes don't just have any old surgeons available but often those surgeons are the leaders and/or pioneers in their field.  The athletes' competitive nature is a given and obviously they have a massive amount of confirmation bias when it comes to the 'sales pitch' from the surgeon and the athlete convinces himself (or is convinced by others) that he will be as good as new or, with some surgeries like Tommy John, even better.  Obviously, repair of catastrophic and/or chronic injury is non-negotiable.

 

I've always been somewhat amazed at the frequency of surgery in sports in general.  There are contact sports like football & hockey where surgical intervention is inevitable, of course, but baseball, soccer, Olympic sports etc all seem to regularly feature stories of operations.

 

I suppose I'm comparing this to personal experience and those of various friends and acquaintances where the most commonly-told tale is a doctor saying 'Well, we could operate but PT/rehab are probably best for you.'  In terms of outcomes, sometimes yes, sometimes no.  Now...is this REALLY the doctor's view or is he taking into account (literally and figuratively) the view of the insurance provider who discourages surgical intervention? 

 

Granted, this is all anecdotal, even speculative, but one example might be something we're almost all familiar with:  golf elbow aka tennis elbow aka epicondylitis.  Some doctors will order a cortisone shot, sometimes more than one, despite the side effects and despite the fact that it's mostly masking the problem.  PT/rehab types will prescribe all manner of stretches, therapy ball exercises, heat/ice/massage etc. But I've met numerous patients who doggedly pursued surgery/surgeons, had their elbow tendon repaired and and have the little keyhole scar to prove it.  And they rave about the effect and improvement as well as the much shorter and predictable time frame to return to normal.

 

Of course, post-op rehab and strengthening is part and parcel of surgery but the point is that athletes pursue surgery as a more rapid and sure-fire fix and because they have a rather obsessive desire to return to competition and/or because being sidelined is costing them money and/or because their doctors, freed in part or in whole from meddling from bean counters, are more candid about and encouraging of surgery.

 

In Tiger's case, he probably became convinced everything was fixable given the changes in his golf swing as noted above.  Why should surgery be any different.  Obviously, as also noted upthread, knees and backs are high-stakes but needs must.

In a sense you’re right. No one gets Tommy John and gets better due to the surgery. If there is better performance post surgery, it is 100 percent due to the rehab and modified throwing mechanics needed to maintain and strengthen the arm. I had Tommy John and came back throwing harder. I was also in PT for 3+ hours a day for 12 months and changed my complete throwing motion.  
 

Obviously every case is different, but in my athletic career I’ve seen some of the top surgeons who have been mentioned above. Not once did I ever receive a sales pitch on the surgery. Through my multiple surgeries it was pretty black and white. Top surgeons usually tell you how it is and let you decide. 
 

In Tiger’s case he was the best player in the world when he was contemplating surgery. Resting and rehabilitating without surgery carriers more risk in most cases.
 

By not having surgery and sitting out of events, he still runs the risk to not heal and then be in a situation where he would still need the surgery. This wasted time would have led to even more downtime in his career. 
 

With Tiger choosing to have surgeries he took the safer approach to getting back to winning tournaments and sponsorship money. 

Edited October 17, 2021 by doc52

[Pepperturbo]

20 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

Not saying you but Most people think they “fill out” after HS and added muscle but it’s mostly fat. 

That's true.  I really believe whether fat or muscle, it depends on genetics.   Weird to say, but lots of people are amazed when they find out I am 70yrs old.  I carry my weight rather well, thanks to genetics.  Everyone, even the women in my family have Eastern European farmer body's.  I was throwing bails of hay and straw onto the wagon and around the barn starting around 12.

[ShowMe]

On 10/16/2021 at 1:31 PM, Pepperturbo said:

Over recent years, don't think it takes much to convince professional jocks or even amateurs of that.  Orthopedic segment has become intertwined with athletes in all sports, some more than others. 

 

Three of my buddies are MDs.  One is a notable sport Orthopedic Surgeon.  He's said there's a common belief, depending on a person's body and reaction to rehab, certain surgeries can make parts of the body stronger than the original equipment. 

 

Is his name Col. Steve Austin?

[ShowMe]

On 10/16/2021 at 1:10 PM, Redjeep83 said:

well in that case it’s not really the running that caused the injury, It would be the golf swing which carries more force to the knee and caused it to fail. 
 

It’s like saying doing those lunges caused my acl to tear when I was deadlifting 600 pounds 

 

How much force does a golf swing carry to the knee vs. running?  Has anybody ever measured it?

[ShowMe]

On 10/16/2021 at 4:21 PM, bscinstnct said:

 

Cheers, you too ; )

 

210 at 5’10 is an enormous amount of muscle even with a big frame at under 20% body fat. 

Here is Hershel. Loaded with muscle. He was 220 in college but was 6’2. 

 

Not saying you but Most people think they “fill out” after HS and added muscle but it’s mostly fat. 
 

Like my buddy from Uncle Rico football. Back in the day, he was legit 6’1 and 185.  Huge frame, ankles size of a roll of toilet paper lol. 15% body fat, plenty of muscle. Nowhere near jacked but he could kick serious @ss. After college he got up to 230. He looked big and strong cause his frame. But it was all fat from eating Taco Bell 🤣

 

 

 

Herschel needed all that muscle to (allegedly) assault the women he dated.

Wait.  Too soon?

Edited October 18, 2021 by ShowMe
my lawyer advised me to use the word "allegedly"

[Naptime]

On 10/14/2021 at 4:09 PM, PowerPlayer said:

Running 30 miles /week probably had the most impact on busting his knees. Tiger claims running wrecked his body and I'd think he's consulted highly trained specialists to isolate the root cause so that he can have a plan going forward. 

 

One of many reasons I don't run. 🤣

 

I had a student who ran in the Olympic trials, and my kids went to school with an Olympic 1500m gold winner.  They don't run like ordinary humans, even like other athletes.

[miamistomp]

[miamistomp]

5 minutes ago, Naptime said:

 

One of many reasons I don't run. 🤣

 

I had a student who ran in the Olympic trials, and my kids went to school with an Olympic 1500m gold winner.  They don't run like ordinary humans, even like other athletes.

  I guess Tiger never bothered to learn to run correctly-30 miles per week is nothing unless it was all hills or flat out sprints

  I know lots of injury free lifetime runners

  I am almost 70 , competed in running events from age 13 until past 40

  Still can run easily without injury 50 miles per week running and  walking golf course ( 6'1' 178 lbs) 

  My current streak is 8 months straight of minimum 6 miles per day

[bscinstnct]

27 minutes ago, miamistomp said:

  I guess Tiger never bothered to learn to run correctly-30 miles per week is nothing unless it was all hills or flat out sprints

  I know lots of injury free lifetime runners

  I am almost 70 , competed in running events from age 13 until past 40

  Still can run easily without injury 50 miles per week running and  walking golf course ( 6'1' 178 lbs) 

  My current streak is 8 months straight of minimum 6 miles per day

 

I hate to run

 

🤣

 

Dont get me wrong. I fast yo! I be booking. Haulin @ss. Used to run til the cows come home in sports.

 

And I could see how if is a race like competition, track, people run,

 

But I just can’t be running miles for no reason. Plus running on pavement, my brains rattling around in my head. Joints getting pounded. I obviously have no form for distance. But seems very few do.
 

Some people are naturals. But most people I see run like all in pain, hunched to one side, like like they being tortured!

 

I like cycling. Also HIIT workouts with lots of lateral, vertical, cross plane movement and acceleration/deceleration. 

 

With Tiger, I find it hard to believe that he trashed his knee in his 20s…by running. Even with crap form. I imagine he had knee issues and, while the running didn’t help, his golf swing technique and reckless manner of play is what really wrecked his knee over time. Think about it. Why only one knee messed up?
 

 

[miamistomp]

48 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

I hate to run

 

🤣

 

Dont get me wrong. I fast yo! I be booking. Haulin @ss. Used to run til the cows come home in sports.

 

And I could see how if is a race like competition, track, people run,

 

But I just can’t be running miles for no reason. Plus running on pavement, my brains rattling around in my head. Joints getting pounded. I obviously have no form for distance. But seems very few do.
 

Some people are naturals. But most people I see run like all in pain, hunched to one side, like like they being tortured!

 

I like cycling. Also HIIT workouts with lots of lateral, vertical, cross plane movement and acceleration/deceleration. 

 

With Tiger, I find it hard to believe that he trashed his knee in his 20s…by running. Even with crap form. I imagine he had knee issues and, while the running didn’t help, his golf swing technique and reckless manner of play is what really wrecked his knee over time. Think about it. Why only one knee messed up?
 

 

 She has a stupid hat but the info and accent are great

 You need good posture, knees a bit bent on landing leg to absorb shock and good shoes

  I also try to run on soft surfaces ( beach, boardwalk , grass or a real track )- then your brains won't rattle around

 

 

[TiScape]

On 10/16/2021 at 10:31 AM, Pepperturbo said:

Three of my buddies are MDs.  One is a notable sport Orthopedic Surgeon.  He's said there's a common belief, depending on a person's body and reaction to rehab, certain surgeries can make parts of the body stronger than the original equipment.

Absolutely! Just ask Steve. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by TiScape

[bscinstnct]

49 minutes ago, miamistomp said:

 She has a stupid hat but the info and accent are great

 You need good posture, knees a bit bent on landing leg to absorb shock and good shoes

  I also try to run on soft surfaces ( beach, boardwalk , grass or a real track )- then your brains won't rattle around

 

 

 

Thats good!  
 

I think my running “style” crafted from football where you run all over to go kill somebody or run away. Or baseball where you just run in bursts. But I used to like 200 yard sprints for training. 

My hats off to runners. Specially those who go running break of day! You da man. I get up early but I like just suck down coffee and get prime for work. I do 20 minutes yoga on strength days in morning. But I can’t go workout early. I like end of day de-stress hiit!

 

I just did this workout now. Don’t laugh 🤣lots of good stuff in there, this lady kicks butt!

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

3 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

I just did this workout now. Don’t laugh 🤣lots of good stuff in there, this lady kicks butt!

Her routines remind me of those miserable days doing calisthenics before football practice.  Jog and punch is killer, only we did that for longer periods. Quad killer... we did those hops/skates for Nordic/Alpine training. lol

[bscinstnct]

4 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

Her routines remind me of those miserable days doing calisthenics before football practice.  Jog and punch is killer, only we did that for longer periods. Quad killer... we did those hops/skates for Nordic/Alpine training. lol

 

Ha! Yeah, also those workouts half way through practice where you do burpeees in the dirt! And leg lifts on your back with the sweat pooling and burning in your eyes as you punch your stomach!