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Casey Martin has leg amputated


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On 10/19/2021 at 11:14 AM, swgolf12 said:

 

The PGA Tour is a work place, so no one with any disabilities or medical conditions can work in your mind? Seek help, seriously.  Nothing you can say could ever possibly add value to society. 

With all due respect SW, attacking someone like you just did because he disagrees with you seems much like throwing stones from a glass house. Maybe you need to check your attitudes toward other people and get help too.

 

It is awful to hear this news, I hope he recovers quickly. I wish we had a lot more people like Casey Martin in our country and world these days. It would be a much better place.  

 

 

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Very sad news. A few years ago I sat next to Casey on a plane, we had a delay and were waiting on the tarmac. He was super uncomfortable the whole time but incredibly pleasant. You could see it was a struggle for him to get around but there he was, traveling with his team and being an ok guy. Hope he recovers and can enjoy his life.

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On 10/16/2021 at 10:17 PM, huskydawg said:

At the time, I also disagreed with it.  But as time went on, when you see Rory squatting ~315 lbs and tons of other golfers being in freakishly good shape, it's really your fault if you can't beat someone with a circulatory condition where he can barely bear his own body weight.  Perhaps it could have led to a slippery slope, but in his case I think he should have gotten the cart without a lengthy court battle.  Have any other ADA cases arisen since the TOUR lost the case? 

 

Edit: Also, wishing the best for his recovery.

 

Respectfully, I don't think "fault" is the issue here. When you hit the pro level of any sport, your body is fundamentally part of the whole picture. There is a single set of rules that everyone plays by. If his circulatory system is so bad he can't even walk 18 holes, he is simply not a professional athlete - of any kind. Couldn't play professional tennis or football, or basketball or soccer either. Many people (actually, most) could not. 

 

Please note that I am quite in favor of the ADA. I own a company and have people with various disabilities working for me - in fact a couple of my best people. Go out of my way to make reasonable accommodations (which sometimes means buying them extra, specialized technology & etc.). But the key word is reasonable. 

 

If someone is partially blind, they simply shouldn't try to get a job driving a school bus and then ask for an accommodation. A construction worker with vertigo should not work on the 50th story of a new skyscraper. A person who is deaf shouldn't apply to sit at a desk as a telemarketer. Some physical conditions just flat out mean there are some jobs that you are not born to do. 

 

Casey tried to enter the pro level of a sport with rules that almost by definition he knew he couldn't follow. And walking the course is not some trivial, obscure rule, it is fundamental to the game. I used to play multi-day tournaments. Hoofing it is hard. Most weekenders don't get this. A lot of them are tired after even playing 18 with a cart. Walking is way different than riding - it almost isn't the same game. The pro tourneys, walking 18 holes a day for four days straight, takes a real toll - the average course is 6.5 - 7 miles of walking per 18. Probably 2/3s of America couldn't walk 25+ miles over four days, let alone also play golf. That court ruling was deeply unfair to every other golfer on the Tour.

 

I'm actually a real fan of the appropriate use of the ADA. The vast majority of Americans are. But applying it to frivolous, or even slightly bizarre circumstances (as has happened in many more cases than this) actually damages its legitimacy. 

 

All that said, I wish Casey the absolute very best, and hope he'll get joy out of, and make solid contributions to the teaching of the next generation of golfers.

Edited by bobfoster
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On 10/21/2021 at 5:11 AM, hammersia said:

 

I'm a traditionalist, but for able bodied PGA players a 5 mile walk is utterly insignificant, a cart is not going to benefit them in any way, and, as the court agreed, the Tour should always have allowed disability exemptions. 

Fred Couples disagrees ... most other golfers disagree ... no link ... tiger stated early on physical shape on a sunday was one of his driving forces in running so much ... couples stated, essentially, next time you think walking 5-7 miles isn't a big deal, then walk to your grocery store and back ... something along those lines ... "utterly insignificant" ... that's an all-or-nothing position that is the bane of most american conversation ... 

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7 hours ago, bobfoster said:

 

Respectfully, I don't think "fault" is the issue here. When you hit the pro level of any sport, your body is fundamentally part of the whole picture. There is a single set of rules that everyone plays by. If his circulatory system is so bad he can't even walk 18 holes, he is simply not a professional athlete - of any kind. Couldn't play professional tennis or football, or basketball or soccer either. Many people (actually, most) could not. 

 

Please note that I am quite in favor of the ADA. I own a company and have people with various disabilities working for me - in fact a couple of my best people. Go out of my way to make reasonable accommodations (which sometimes means buying them extra, specialized technology & etc.). But the key word is reasonable. 

 

If someone is partially blind, they simply shouldn't try to get a job driving a school bus and then ask for an accommodation. A construction worker with vertigo should not work on the 50th story of a new skyscraper. A person who is deaf shouldn't apply to sit at a desk as a telemarketer. Some physical conditions just flat out mean there are some jobs that you are not born to do. 

 

Casey tried to enter the pro level of a sport with rules that almost by definition he knew he couldn't follow. And walking the course is not some trivial, obscure rule, it is fundamental to the game. I used to play multi-day tournaments. Hoofing it is hard. Most weekenders don't get this. A lot of them are tired after even playing 18 with a cart. Walking is way different than riding - it almost isn't the same game. The pro tourneys, walking 18 holes a day for four days straight, takes a real toll - the average course is 6.5 - 7 miles of walking per 18. Probably 2/3s of America couldn't walk 25+ miles over four days, let alone also play golf. That court ruling was deeply unfair to every other golfer on the Tour.

 

I'm actually a real fan of the appropriate use of the ADA. The vast majority of Americans are. But applying it to frivolous, or even slightly bizarre circumstances (as has happened in many more cases than this) actually damages its legitimacy. 

 

All that said, I wish Casey the absolute very best, and hope he'll get joy out of, and make solid contributions to the teaching of the next generation of golfers.

All those examples you posted involve the ball moving so obviously it's impossible to accommodate.  Walking from shot to shot isn't necessarily integral to golf though.  Are you going to tell someone they're not playing golf if they're using a cart?  The Champions Tour allowed carts, are they not playing professional golf?  You still have to hit the shots.  In the end, he couldn't play well enough keep his card despite the cart so maybe it didn't matter. But I question, why are 40-50 year olds beating 25 year olds?  Because they're more athletic or is it a matter of skill?  

 

I can almost guarantee that the issues he was going through are greater than any sort of fatigue anyone else is going through.  Pain with every step he takes, traveling through airports, hotel transit, working out, practicing, doctor's visits, etc.  If anything he likely had more fatigue than any other player had.  

 

I'm sorry for derailing the thread so early on.  I wanted to share my change of heart on the subject, but it sort of erupted into a debate.  My apologies.

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9 hours ago, grm24 said:

How about WRX members respect what just happened to Casey Martin instead of rehashing/relitigating/arguing again what took place over 20 years ago? If you really feel the need to do that start another thread on it. FFS.

Start another thread to ignore the elephant in the room in this one? Why? Look, there are about 25 million golfers in the US. At least some of them got injured or had heartbreaking surgeries this year. And there have been hundreds (over the years, thousands) of golfers that got to the PGA Tour for a season or two and then disappeared. 

 

Yet, there are no newspaper articles about them, or WRX threads. No one knows them, or remembers their names. The sole reason this guy is even remembered or talked about is because of the lawsuit. Hard to have a thread about him without even mentioning it. 

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On 10/21/2021 at 4:38 AM, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

I wonder if opinions will change if using a cart is the only way for Tiger to return? 


That’s a heck of a point…

 

That said, I have spent some time with Casey. 


My hope is he does feel better and ultimately have a better quality of life than before.  He had to be extremely careful with the bad leg - I mean really careful (looking out for hills, holes, uneven ground, slippery surfaces, getting bumped into - all kinds of stuff) to make sure he didn’t break it.  Which sadly, ultimately happened and this is the result. 
 

Im not going to pretend to imagine what’s really in his mind about this - and he probably wouldn’t share those internal thoughts candidly or openly - but I do hope his recovery goes well and his future is better/less painful/less stressful than before the procedure.  With advancements in prosthetics being as they are I sincerely hope he gets to hitting balls and playing again.  

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59 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

Yes, If Casey getting to ride along the cart paths was such a bad image for an "athlete," how about all of the other "athletes" needing someone else to carry their clubs? Carry your own damn bag, you athletes, you.

 

And let's not even get into 50 year-olds riding carts in Champions Tour events, run by the same organization and being credited with USGA victories. I thought golf was meant to be a walking game? What a bunch of hypocrites.

 

Now I've gone and done it. I've called golf a game instead of a sport with "athletes." Are croquet players athletes? Not too many people are running in the "game" of golf.

 

So, are all the tens of millions of golfers in the world athletes? Hell no. It's a game.

 

I wish Casey the best of success in the future.

 

Added--.

 

 

Look, I have particular empathy for disabled golfers. When I was very young, i was an assistant pro at a military golf course. I volunteered my time to teach amputees from a VA hospital located nearby. Together with them, we found creative ways for them to adapt to swing a golf club. Some had only one leg and no prosthesis, along with others with other amputations.

 

One thing I found was they each wanted to do it with the least amount of what they considered to be artificial compensations. They were extraordinary people wanting to find ways to enjoy the game of golf.

 

I also was one of the coordinators for the first World Disabled Golf Championship in Japan in 2014. Disabled golfers from throughout the world competed and it was a stunning success. We had amputees who would beat 99% of the people here playing scratch, including the famous bobfoster, the only person here who has ever owned a business...

 

I feel very honored and grateful to have been a part of that, been able to watch many of them play and just be around so many of the most truly dedicated golfers in the world.


Excellent post and thank you for your dedication to two worthy causes - in my eyes - vets and golf.  
 

Golf is a truly healing endeavor for many people - myself included. 
 

I wasn’t going to weigh in on the cart thing but your post makes me do it 🙂  

 

I 100% supported Casey Martin riding in a cart.   100%.  Anyone who has spent time around him knows how many issues he dealt with on a daily basis.  The fact he could even play golf to the level he did with that condition is remarkable.   
 

Taking this one step further… I could care less if someone rides.   Personally, I hate riding.  Always play worse it seems when I can’t walk the course. No rhythm.  Maybe I get more “tired” but that “tired” is something you learn to deal with and the trade off for having more connection to the course is well worth it for me.  
 

Lastly, and I say this with virtual certainty, if Casey could have walked the course (or anywhere else for that matter) he 100% would have.  His riding was NEVER an attempt to game the system or gain an advantage on his part and a now amputated leg is proof of that.  

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On 10/19/2021 at 11:14 AM, swgolf12 said:

 

The PGA Tour is a work place, so no one with any disabilities or medical conditions can work in your mind? Seek help, seriously.  Nothing you can say could ever possibly add value to society. 

It is not a workplace.  It is an athletic competition.  I'm a dedicated walker on the golf course and can assure you that the last four holes of any round when walking are significantly more difficult on foot than they are when you play cart golf.  Either all players get carts or no players get carts.  Heck, just sitting in the shade that a cart provides on a 90+ degree day would be a huge advantage.

Get well Casey!

Edited by SurfDuffer
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3 hours ago, SurfDuffer said:

It is not a workplace.  It is an athletic competition.  I'm a dedicated walker on the golf course and can assure you that the last four holes of any round when walking are significantly more difficult on foot than they are when you play cart golf.  Either all players get carts or no players get carts.  Heck, just sitting in the shade that a cart provides on a 90+ degree day would be a huge advantage.

Get well Casey!

 

Okay well the Supreme Court of the United States says it's a workplace. Also Casey Martin suffered more fatigue playing golf while riding in a cart, than an average PGA tour player feels from walking.  That's from the lawsuit, even the PGA tour admits that. Also the cart he rode in never had a roof.

 

How many more ways do you want to be wrong on this one? Let me know and I'll keep em coming. But also great to know you think we should discriminate against people with disabilities. What's the old saying, "better to be silent and thought a fool than speak and remove all doubt."

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On 10/23/2021 at 6:22 AM, grm24 said:

How about WRX members respect what just happened to Casey Martin instead of rehashing/relitigating/arguing again what took place over 20 years ago? If you really feel the need to do that start another thread on it. FFS.

Perfectly possible for most right thinking people to talk about both, respectfully, at the same time.

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On 10/22/2021 at 5:59 PM, tiderider said:

Fred Couples disagrees ... most other golfers disagree ... no link ... tiger stated early on physical shape on a sunday was one of his driving forces in running so much ... couples stated, essentially, next time you think walking 5-7 miles isn't a big deal, then walk to your grocery store and back ... something along those lines ... "utterly insignificant" ... that's an all-or-nothing position that is the bane of most american conversation ... 

 

Fred stated that as an older man, in retrospect. 

 

But, also to clarify - it's not just the walking during the round.  It's the walking to and from the practice areas, the time warming up and time spent after a round tweaking things.  We must also consider it's 25+ miles aggregate per tournament not to mention the mental energy to compete at the highest level.  Add it up and it takes quite a toll.   

 

Let me be clear - I don't have anything against people with disabilities or Casey Martin.  However, at the time, I very much  disagreed with Casey's decision to take this to the courts.  I believe he should stated his beef with the PGA and have walked the course or walked away.  At the time the game was very much steeped in tradition, as were most people that played the game.  I was a traditionalist in my thinking about watching professional golf and felt that everyone should carry the same basic burden which was walking the course with a caddy.   

 

Since then general view of golf has changed (mostly for the better).  If we were to face the same situation today, I truly believe the outcome would be vastly different.  

 

 

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4 hours ago, SurfDuffer said:

It is not a workplace.  It is an athletic competition.  I'm a dedicated walker on the golf course and can assure you that the last four holes of any round when walking are significantly more difficult on foot than they are when you play cart golf.  Either all players get carts or no players get carts.  Heck, just sitting in the shade that a cart provides on a 90+ degree day would be a huge advantage.

Get well Casey!

Then maybe these athletes should carry or push their own bags. 

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On 10/23/2021 at 8:09 AM, bobfoster said:

Start another thread to ignore the elephant in the room in this one? Why? Look, there are about 25 million golfers in the US. At least some of them got injured or had heartbreaking surgeries this year. And there have been hundreds (over the years, thousands) of golfers that got to the PGA Tour for a season or two and then disappeared. 

 

Yet, there are no newspaper articles about them, or WRX threads. No one knows them, or remembers their names. The sole reason this guy is even remembered or talked about is because of the lawsuit. Hard to have a thread about him without even mentioning it. 

 

I know him as Tiger's upperclassman teammate that showed Tiger a thing or two on the chipping and putting greens, and that he and Notah B. won the NCAAs. And now is coaching the Ducks to help realize their own championship level golf.

 

My buddy also an amputee and walks the course with us, and also outdrives a bunch of us to boot. This resonates me with and here's hoping that Casey can also overcome this challenge.

 

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On 10/23/2021 at 8:09 AM, bobfoster said:

Start another thread to ignore the elephant in the room in this one? Why? Look, there are about 25 million golfers in the US. At least some of them got injured or had heartbreaking surgeries this year. And there have been hundreds (over the years, thousands) of golfers that got to the PGA Tour for a season or two and then disappeared. 

 

Yet, there are no newspaper articles about them, or WRX threads. No one knows them, or remembers their names. The sole reason this guy is even remembered or talked about is because of the lawsuit. Hard to have a thread about him without even mentioning it. 


Maybe that’s why YOU, remember him. The lawsuit is why many people know him but just as many know him as the coach of University of Oregon’s men’s golf team; yeah the team that won a National title. Many know him as a good person. 
 

This thread should be about him and we’ll wishes not your opinion on whether he should have been a pro. Around here, in the PNW, he’s kind of legend and incredibly well respected and never once have I heard anyone in the industry bring up the lawsuit. 

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On 10/18/2021 at 9:28 AM, Blonde Line Lizard said:

Walking is part of the game on the pro tour.  I don't see what Casey and the courts do/did not understand:  LIFE IS NOT FAIR.  

 

If a person can't play by the given rules, maybe it's time to move on to something else.  Casey could have been a coach, instructor, etc. instead of trying to play on the Tour and causing all of the controversy.

You are an idiot [email protected]@@@

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On 10/26/2021 at 11:15 AM, swgolf12 said:

 

Okay well the Supreme Court of the United States says it's a workplace. Also Casey Martin suffered more fatigue playing golf while riding in a cart, than an average PGA tour player feels from walking.  That's from the lawsuit, even the PGA tour admits that. Also the cart he rode in never had a roof.

 

How many more ways do you want to be wrong on this one? Let me know and I'll keep em coming. But also great to know you think we should discriminate against people with disabilities. What's the old saying, "better to be silent and thought a fool than speak and remove all doubt."

Yawn.  Forgot this forum existed for a while.  My opinion regarding athletic competition accomodations stands regardless of what you think.

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On 10/19/2021 at 10:14 AM, swgolf12 said:

 

The PGA Tour is a work place, so no one with any disabilities or medical conditions can work in your mind? Seek help, seriously.  Nothing you can say could ever possibly add value to society. 

The decision turned on public accommodation, not on an argument that it was a workplace and the Tour was his employer. 

 

Reasonable people can disagree on the rest of it.  Public discourse is one of the most important ways "value" is added to society.

 

Sorry to see this happen and wish him all the best of luck with recovery. He's been pretty successful and worked hard away from the Tour and hope that continues to be successful.  Seems like he was limping around noticeably at a college event I saw on TV but don't recall when, didn't look like anything most people could even handle.

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