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x100 into the wind - low launch, high spin, balloons, always short


RCGA
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If I'm experiencing ballooning on into-the-wind shots but a fine ball flight otherwise, how much fault can be attributed to the shafts and/or shaft flex?  

 

Let's remove iron heads, swing, and ball from the equation.

 

It's a hard thing to try and mimic in a fitting since real turf interaction plays a big role in punch/flighted shots.

 

I like the dollar value of the x100s. No interest in anything from KBS, and Project X shafts are at least double the cost of an x100 in Canada.     

Cobra Speedzone 8.5* // Smoke Yellow x-flex
TaylorMade Original One 12* // EvenFlow Black x-flex

TaylorMade SIM UDI 18* // Diamana Thump 100 x-flex

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Mizuno JPX919 Tour 5-PW // TT X100

Vokey // SM7 50-54-58 // TT X100

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32 minutes ago, RCGA said:

If I'm experiencing ballooning on into-the-wind shots but a fine ball flight otherwise, how much fault can be attributed to the shafts and/or shaft flex?  

 

Very little directly.  Not enough to be the difference between a good shot and ballooning.

 

Now both the shaft weight and the swing weight can effect the swing and your delivery in wide range of ways such that if either (or both) are a bad fit, that can lead to significant changes in delivery.  It's more common that too light might lead to added dynamic loft (and ballooning) but not impossible for too heavy as well.

 

Finally for some, the stiffness feel of the shaft can also effect the swing and delivery.  It's not as common as the weight but it does happen enough to be aware of the possibility.  If the shaft feels too soft or too stiff, that would be the most likely indicator.

 

But your swing is the major factor in what you get for ball flight.  The equipment can alter that to some degree - some shaft (or club) characteristics more than others.  So any question of the fit of a particular shaft or equipment choice can only really be an evaluation of the comparison of the results between different choices.  There are no useful "objective" or player independent characteristics.  

 

 

 

32 minutes ago, RCGA said:

It's a hard thing to try and mimic in a fitting since real turf interaction plays a big role in punch/flighted shots.

 

Not if you're making good contact and hitting the ball first.   One exception is if one has developed certain sensitivity to the feel of the club through the turf after impact - and the anticipation of those feels effect the delivery.   Just because it might only be "in your head" doesn't mean it can't effect the results.

 

Edited by Stuart_G
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Potentially the shaft is too stiff and you aren't loading it properly and delivering the face in a way to trap the ball lower and flight under the wind.  I had this happen to me with DG X7s.  Ball did not balloon by any means, it had no chance too. it just went straight up and came straight down.

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It's really hard to give a solid answer here other than you have to get fit. If you tweak anything in the ball-club-shaft relationship it will impact the results, you just need data to say which direction is the right way to go.

 

Ballooning into the wind likely means you've got too much spin in general, even when you say the flight is ok, and that might be adjusted from a lower spinning ball like Pro V1, Bridgestone BX, Chromesoft LS etc. I've tried a bunch of shafts that all are pretty close on paper, but produced very different spin numbers. I landed on KBS $ Taper which I never would've thought about prior to the fitting (previously couldn't stand the C-Tapers).

 

Short answer: Fittings are worth it and will save dollars, and headaches, in the long run. 

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i've had this issue with X100s for the longest time and that's the reason i won't game them. i can play plenty of other shafts fine...but for some reason...x100's are a no-no due to the OPs performance. 

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X100s spin on me as well, project X helped but I'm just a high spin player. Could look at a lower spinning ball, the ProV1x left dash behaves well into the wind. 

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1 hour ago, RCGA said:

If I'm experiencing ballooning on into-the-wind shots but a fine ball flight otherwise, how much fault can be attributed to the shafts and/or shaft flex?  

 

Let's remove iron heads, swing, and ball from the equation.

 

It's a hard thing to try and mimic in a fitting since real turf interaction plays a big role in punch/flighted shots.

 

I like the dollar value of the x100s. No interest in anything from KBS, and Project X shafts are at least double the cost of an x100 in Canada.     



What shaft do you play in wedges, and how do they work for you?

By the book, the answer would be go stronger, but thats often the wrong direction, we never know before we have tried, so X7 would be natural to try, but they can potentially make things even worse.

Next is the ball you play, it might be to spinny with irons, and there is larger differences between balls for high club speed players than many is aware of.

n the end, its your swing, but this is the tech forum, so "the swing is always innocent" here, but thats really the issue we try to solve by equipment tweaks and changes as far as it is possible.

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I can't play X100's for the same reason, simply become unplayable in the wind. X7 for me has the same feel, and much better trajectory control in wind. I also love the larger diameter butt end of the shaft, makes my MCC+4 feel like a midsize grip. You'll have to do some experimenting with your swing if you refuse to switch from X100

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22 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:



What shaft do you play in wedges, and how do they work for you?
 

 

S200 and S300

 

They're fine. I only hit flighted wedge shots to keep the ball down and distance consistent. Full shots just go straight up unless I deloft a bunch; and either option makes it hard to control distance.  

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Swing issue not shaft issue.

 

You are most likely getting steep and swinging hard in an effort to drive it low through the wind but all that does is create a ton of spin.

 

Better to take less loft and swing slower and it won't spin up on you.

 

For example hit a punch 5 instead of a hard 7. 

Edited by mgoblue83
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Part of the problem is that I'm in Canada and don't have access to a testing facility. Fitting in this province is no existent. There's access to a QC Quad, but you'd have to bring your own clubs. So much of my fitting has to be done sight unseen and DIY.

 

I don't want to buy KBS shafts because of the bent tip problem (real or not). TT X7 are $95/each. Project X LS are $76/each. My options really come down to:

 

x100 ($32/each)

x100 hard stepped ($32/each) 

PX 6.5 ($61/each)

Modus Tour ($56/each)

 

 

Cobra Speedzone 8.5* // Smoke Yellow x-flex
TaylorMade Original One 12* // EvenFlow Black x-flex

TaylorMade SIM UDI 18* // Diamana Thump 100 x-flex

Srixon U85 23* // Modus 120x
Mizuno JPX919 Tour 5-PW // TT X100

Vokey // SM7 50-54-58 // TT X100

Scotty Cameron Pro Platinum Newport  

 

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Would hard stepping a set of x100s help this problem or make no difference? 

 

Driver SS in the 118-122 range 

8i ball speed in the 116-120 range 

 

Cobra Speedzone 8.5* // Smoke Yellow x-flex
TaylorMade Original One 12* // EvenFlow Black x-flex

TaylorMade SIM UDI 18* // Diamana Thump 100 x-flex

Srixon U85 23* // Modus 120x
Mizuno JPX919 Tour 5-PW // TT X100

Vokey // SM7 50-54-58 // TT X100

Scotty Cameron Pro Platinum Newport  

 

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14 minutes ago, RCGA said:

Would hard stepping a set of x100s help this problem or make no difference? 

 

Can't be sure but very unlikely that it would make any difference.  hard/soft stepping is just a minor tweak to the feel of the shaft.  Not anything one would do to manage the ball flight.

 

Since it couldn't hurt anything, try playing with some lead tape on the head to increase the swing weight and see if that might help slow down the release a little.  Add in 2 gm increments on the range.

 

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26 minutes ago, RCGA said:

Part of the problem is that I'm in Canada and don't have access to a testing facility. Fitting in this province is no existent. There's access to a QC Quad, but you'd have to bring your own clubs. So much of my fitting has to be done sight unseen and DIY.

 

I don't want to buy KBS shafts because of the bent tip problem (real or not). TT X7 are $95/each. Project X LS are $76/each. My options really come down to:

 

x100 ($32/each)

x100 hard stepped ($32/each) 

PX 6.5 ($61/each)

Modus Tour ($56/each)

 

 

 

If you don't have access to a fitter you're left with trial and error.  Your best bet tho is to find a local pro to look at your swing.  You more than likely have a swing flaw that is producing excessive spin, which can benefit you almost everywhere but into the wind shots. 

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Keep in mind the spin you're getting on those shots into the wind is the same spin you love getting on a downwind/crosswind/no wind shot, it allows us to control and shape our shots. If we pull your stock iron for a particular yardage and it's into the wind we set ourselves up for failure, it's not on the shaft, like mgoblue83 states below we have to think less loft, smoother swing enabling the shaft to do it's job and deliver a flatter, lower spinning flight that will cut through the wind and (hopefully) go the desired yardage. Of course, it's always good to go get fitted and reassure your numbers just to double check it's not actually the club's fault. We were born with our golf swing and ability, different shafts will deviate that marginally, but high spin players will still be high spin players. Tiger said, "I can always take spin off the ball, but it's very difficult to put spin on the ball", a reason why he plays a softer ball. Keep in mind to the stock golf market is getting to be lower and lower spinning with stronger lofts and harder balls, so be careful not to overhaul your set just to try to tackle one particular shot you struggle with.

9 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

Swing issue not shaft issue.

 

You are most likely getting steep and swinging hard in an effort to drive it low through the wind but all that does is create a ton of spin.

 

Better to take less loft and swing slower and it won't spin up on you.

 

For example hit a punch 5 instead of a hard 7. 

 

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23 minutes ago, RCGA said:

Would hard stepping a set of x100s help this problem or make no difference? 

 

Driver SS in the 118-122 range 

8i ball speed in the 116-120 range 

 


NO , and i did the math for that a few days ago, based on CPM flex and Iron Byron as example to see what we could change by tip trim a taper tip shaft 3/8" who is equal to 3 CPM and hard stepping is about 4 CPM.

Stupid me did NOT save a link, (maybe Stuart did?), but launch angle was in the area of 0.2* and spin reduction in the area of right below 50 rpm (from my memory)

Have you ever tried S400 as iron shaft? some players generate more spin with X100 than S400, and since price is in the lower end, and those are easy to find second hand, i suggest you try one hard-stepped once.

Do you have any launch monitor datas from your irons?
What ball do you play?

 

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I have the same issue with x100 on irons which is why I never would play them. I do, however, prefer them in my wedges for lower launch and increased spin.

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11 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Didn't save it but after a quick search, is it this one?

 


Nope, the one where i did another check using flightscopes optimizer where the target was to get APEX down with 1 yard, since 3 CPM is equal to 3 feets or 1 yard for Iron Byron. Simply a simulation of what those "magic" 3/8" of tip trim on tapers could do for us except for making the shafts feel a tad stronger, and the conclusion was, "almost nothing". (may not have used those words, but 0.2* on launch and 47-49 rpms is really nothing of importance.) It might been about 2 weeks ago only since that question was up.

Edited by Howard_Jones
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Found it by looking for attachment on my profile
We get to the same area when hard stepping once (25% more change then this), so HS1 becomes about 100 rpms, or like < 0.5* of static loft, so going stronger by 1* on loft "doubles" this numbers...
 

 

Edited by Howard_Jones
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To the OP, this might be your lucky day......
I took a peak into Ebay to see if there was a set made in only 333 sets.....
True Temper Tour Prototype Monaco TX flex.....they are close to 135 grams and i dont think you can ballon this shafts, if thats so, ONLY a swing trainer can help.
3-PW is 199 USD and the set is NEW uncut and in the US.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/143682806465?hash=item217429a2c1:g:WBgAAOSwNxZfNik3

Edited by Howard_Jones
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33 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

To the OP, this might be your lucky day......
I took a peak into Ebay to see if there was a set made in only 333 sets.....
True Temper Tour Prototype Monaco TX flex.....they are close to 135 grams and i dont think you can ballon this shafts, if thats so, ONLY a swing trainer can help.
3-PW is 199 USD and the set is NEW uncut and in the US.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/143682806465?hash=item217429a2c1:g:WBgAAOSwNxZfNik3

I have swung these....weren't these a Black Gold spin off? He could possibly be a Black Gold X player no?

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Couple other things...

  • I play in a very windy city, where gusts of 30-40mph are an everyday thing. So I'm used to playing the in the wind. For the longest time, I thought ballooning was "normal"
  • I grew up in the Tiger era learning Tiger Stinger™ so I can "sting" anything from 2-5i. No ballooning. The second I start hitting 7i to PW, it's like I have to club up way more than I should. Recently I was 125y to the flag, 30mph headwind (playing ~170y) and hit a knock down 3/4 7i (usual 165y shot) and came up 25y short! Starts low, then rises, wind catches it and its like it goes backwards. 
  • I don't really have a preferred ball. I usually play a ProV or some derivative
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Cobra Speedzone 8.5* // Smoke Yellow x-flex
TaylorMade Original One 12* // EvenFlow Black x-flex

TaylorMade SIM UDI 18* // Diamana Thump 100 x-flex

Srixon U85 23* // Modus 120x
Mizuno JPX919 Tour 5-PW // TT X100

Vokey // SM7 50-54-58 // TT X100

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15 minutes ago, RCGA said:

Couple other things...

  • I play in a very windy city, where gusts of 30-40mph are an everyday thing. So I'm used to playing the in the wind. For the longest time, I thought ballooning was "normal"
  • I grew up in the Tiger era learning Tiger Stinger™ so I can "sting" anything from 2-5i. No ballooning. The second I start hitting 7i to PW, it's like I have to club up way more than I should. Recently I was 125y to the flag, 30mph headwind (playing ~170y) and hit a knock down 3/4 7i (usual 165y shot) and came up 25y short! Starts low, then rises, wind catches it and its like it goes backwards. 
  • I don't really have a preferred ball. I usually play a ProV or some derivative

 

Have had this exact shot happen to me many times. No shaft will fix it, there's just too much extra spin. Sometimes when I stop my swing short, my rotation stops and it adds dynamic loft and spin. Perhaps this is what's happening. Just speculating of course.

Edited by rsballer10
poor english

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36 minutes ago, RCGA said:
  • I grew up in the Tiger era learning Tiger Stinger™ so I can "sting" anything from 2-5i. No ballooning. The second I start hitting 7i to PW, it's like I have to club up way more than I should.

 

This sounds to me like you might be swinging them differently.  e.g.  trying to "sting" the longer irons but not the shorter irons.   Or are you saying you can't "sting" the shorter irons despite trying to?

 

Edited by Stuart_G
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2 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

This sounds to me like you're swinging them differently.  e.g.  trying to "sting" the longer irons but not the shorter irons.   Or are you saying you can't "sting" the shorter irons despite trying to?

 

 

2 iron will stay low. Short, but within reason. 8i will start low (for an 8i), climb, then almost go backwards. You'll get the hang time you expected...and for a second think you sailed the green, but then end up 10y short. 

 

 

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