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Had this happen to a friend this weekend during he end of season competition.

 

Pitch shot stopped about 15 feet above the hole.  We all though it would roll back but it did not.

 

As he was taking a practice swing, the ball rolled about 6 feet down the hill generally toward the hole.  He had not previously marked and replaced the ball nor had he fully addressed it.  We did not see any outside agency move the ball.  It was windy that day but did not notice a significant gust or anything out of the ordinary.  He was already out of the money so we did not spend too much time determining the correct course of action, but we thought he should play it from the new position.  He made bogey and likely would have made bogey from the original position.

 

Did we get it right?

What if he had marked it?

What if he had fully addressed it?

 

At the end our assistant pro agreed, but he did not sound that confident. 

 

 

 

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Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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2 hours ago, sui generis said:

Would it not be easier to just answer the OP's question?

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1 hour ago, dhacker56 said:

Would it not be easier to just answer the OP's question?

 

The OP asked a good question and then added several more good questions. You'll find that often the initial narrative is incomplete and as the thread evolves more information is added. The answers often change.

 

Secondly, often folks come here to learn how the Rules work. A "yes" or "no" doesn't accomplish that. In this case, if the OP wants to know what happens when a ball at rest moves, they'll have to look at the same source that any referee would use.

 

 

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Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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4 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

The OP asked a good question and then added several more good questions. You'll find that often the initial narrative is incomplete and as the thread evolves more information is added. The answers often change.

 

Secondly, often folks come here to learn how the Rules work. A "yes" or "no" doesn't accomplish that. In this case, if the OP wants to know what happens when a ball at rest moves, they'll have to look at the same source that any referee would use.

 

 

Yada Yada Yada warden!

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5 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

So...

 

9.3 says we played it correctly. 

9.4 says if he had marked and then it moves, he replaces.

 

It seems addressing the ball has little bearing unless he thinks that the act of addressing the ball caused it to move.  If he did not, proceed under 9.3 or 9.4 accordingly.

 

Knowing this, do players who's balls are on the edge of a ridge or slope sometime not mark their ball with the hope that it could move closer due to natural causes?  We have all had the situation on a false front where someone says "Better mark it quick" for the situation where it may roll away from the hole.

 

And the only other nuance is if the ball rolls by natural forces into the cup, that counts as a stroke, rigjt?

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3 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

The OP asked a good question and then added several more good questions. You'll find that often the initial narrative is incomplete and as the thread evolves more information is added. The answers often change.

 

Secondly, often folks come here to learn how the Rules work. A "yes" or "no" doesn't accomplish that. In this case, if the OP wants to know what happens when a ball at rest moves, they'll have to look at the same source that any referee would use.

 

 

Agree.  Sometimes the question that is asked is far more complicated to a referee than what the original poster intended.  Rather than parse the intent of the original poster in many subsequent posts, it's easier to refer him to the appropriate Rule(s).

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5 minutes ago, david.c.w said:

 

So...

 

9.3 says we played it correctly. 

9.4 says if he had marked and then it moves, he replaces.

 

It seems addressing the ball has little bearing unless he thinks that the act of addressing the ball caused it to move.  If he did not, proceed under 9.3 or 9.4 accordingly.

 

Knowing this, do players who's balls are on the edge of a ridge or slope sometime not mark their ball with the hope that it could move closer due to natural causes?  We have all had the situation on a false front where someone says "Better mark it quick" for the situation where it may roll away from the hole.

 

And the only other nuance is if the ball rolls by natural forces into the cup, that counts as a stroke, rigjt?

Here comes the "parsing".  As a careful player (who knows the Rules), if my ball is above the hole on the putting green and might roll closer to hole, I won't mark and lift it, just leaving it in place.  If my ball is below the hole on the putting green and might roll further away from the hole, I will mark it and lift it.

Once I've marked and lifted my ball on the putting green, my ball "owns that spot".

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11 minutes ago, david.c.w said:

And the only other nuance is if the ball rolls by natural forces into the cup, that counts as a stroke, rigjt?

 

Only the player may make a stroke. Natural forces, wind, water, or gravity can't make a stroke.

 

In this case, the ball that stops above the hole and later, as if by magic, rolls into the hole is not treated differently than the ball which runs past the hole and up the hill, then turns around and rolls into the hole.

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Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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4 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Only the player may make a stroke. Natural forces, wind, water, or gravity can't make a stroke.

 

In this case, the ball that stops above the hole and later, as if by magic, rolls into the hole is not treated differently than the ball which runs past the hole and up the hill, then turns around and rolls into the hole.

 

Then why does the ball on the lip of a hole that falls in after 10 sec count as a stroke?  

 

I struggle to see the difference.  

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2 minutes ago, david.c.w said:

 

Then why does the ball on the lip of a hole that falls in after 10 sec count as a stroke?  

 

I struggle to see the difference.  

 

I suspect that the authors of 13.3 felt that there had to be some time limit. Otherwise, the player might go off to lunch and cause ABC to run a half an hour of Viagra ads while we all waited for the ball to move. 

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7 minutes ago, david.c.w said:

 

Then why does the ball on the lip of a hole that falls in after 10 sec count as a stroke?  

 

I struggle to see the difference.  

The Rule came from an incident in the 1950-1960 era when a player (Don January I believe) waited several minutes to see if his ball overhanging the hole would fall in (I don't know if it did or didn't).  Obviously this significantly delayed play.  The Ruling Bodies (USGA and R&A) then decided that the player would be allowed a reasonable time to reach the hole and overhanging ball, and an additional ten seconds to see if the ball fell into the hole.  If the ball fell into the hole after those ten seconds, it was considered holed and a penalty stroke would be incurred to represent the stroke the player would have needed to hole the ball after the 10 seconds (an assumption by the RB that the ball would be holed by the player's next stroke, but recall that Hale Irwin whiffed a one inch putt at the The Open Championship at Royal Birkdale and ended up losing by one stroke).

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8 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

I suspect that the authors of 13.3 felt that there had to be some time limit. Otherwise, the player might go off to lunch and cause ABC to run a half an hour of Viagra ads while we all waited for the ball to move. 

 

That was my assumption.   Thanks for the references and clarifications.

 

Cheers!

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1 minute ago, rogolf said:

The Rule came from an incident in the 1950-1960 era when a player (Don January I believe) waited several minutes to see if his ball overhanging the hole would fall in (I don't know if it did or didn't).  Obviously this significantly delayed play.  The Ruling Bodies (USGA and R&A) then decided that the player would be allowed a reasonable time to reach the hole and overhanging ball, and an additional ten seconds to see if the ball fell into the hole.  If the ball fell into the hole after those ten seconds, it was considered holed and a penalty stroke would be incurred to represent the stroke the player would have needed to hole the ball after the 10 seconds (an assumption by the RB that the ball would be holed by the player's next stroke, but recall that Hale Irwin whiffed a one inch putt at the The Open Championship at Royal Birkdale and ended up losing by one stroke).

 

Is "overhanging" the key word in this scenario?  Overhanging = 10 sec, not overhanging = "no limit"?

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10 minutes ago, david.c.w said:

not overhanging = "no limit"?

 

R5.6, Unreasonable Delay, takes that one.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=5&subrulenum=6

 

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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43 minutes ago, david.c.w said:

 

Then why does the ball on the lip of a hole that falls in after 10 sec count as a stroke?  

 

I struggle to see the difference.  

Doesn’t count as a “stroke”. It counts as a penalty stroke. 
 

The ball is holed with the previous stroke, plus a penalty for waiting too long. 

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1 hour ago, rogolf said:

The Rule came from an incident in the 1950-1960 era when a player (Don January I believe) waited several minutes to see if his ball overhanging the hole would fall in (I don't know if it did or didn't).  Obviously this significantly delayed play.  The Ruling Bodies (USGA and R&A) then decided that the player would be allowed a reasonable time to reach the hole and overhanging ball, and an additional ten seconds to see if the ball fell into the hole.  If the ball fell into the hole after those ten seconds, it was considered holed and a penalty stroke would be incurred to represent the stroke the player would have needed to hole the ball after the 10 seconds (an assumption by the RB that the ball would be holed by the player's next stroke, but recall that Hale Irwin whiffed a one inch putt at the The Open Championship at Royal Birkdale and ended up losing by one stroke).

Pretty sure that ball did eventually fall in...after 4+ min. I do recall hearing about that incident. 

 

So yeah, they had to do something or players might stand there all day claiming the ball "was moving".

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On 10/19/2021 at 3:00 PM, TerpFangolfer said:

Pretty sure that ball did eventually fall in...after 4+ min. I do recall hearing about that incident. 

 

So yeah, they had to do something or players might stand there all day claiming the ball "was moving".

Another misunderstanding that comes up from time to time - I've seen a touring pro demonstrate this misunderstanding - is the player believing if their overhanging ball is still moving very slowly after the time to get there plus 10 seconds then they are not permitted to knock it in because it would be a penalty for breaching rule 10.1d playing a moving ball. This is incorrect - rule 13.3a affirms the ball is treated as being at rest even if it is not and the player is free to tap in.

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