Motorcycle Move

[Krt22]

12 minutes ago, Golfbeat said:

 

Not only Monte. Most of the good instructors these days.

Because they can directly measure it now and the data is very clear, extending the lead wrist in transition is a universally bad move. I think people get a bit too caught up in the extreme DJ/Brooks/Morikawa model and neglect to see that just about every single pro is doing it to some extent, just not at the same magnitude dependent on grip and other matchups.

 

18 minutes ago, liquorandpoker said:

 

I agree with what I think you are saying.  One contrived move compensating for another.  

 

To me there is nothing natural about either of these and both can be counter to the way the body wants to work / the most efficient movement of the clubhead.

Yet it's something just about every elite golfer does. If you think tour players games and careers are based on a "contrived move" and that they aren't moving the clubhead in the most efficient way possible, well I'm not sure what to tell you. What isn't efficient is tipping the shaft out early, then tilt/stall/flipping at the bottom

[liquorandpoker]

4 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Yet it's something just about every elite golfer does. If you think tour players games and careers are based on a "contrived move" and that they aren't moving the clubhead in the most efficient way possible, well I'm not sure what to tell you. What isn't efficient is tipping the shaft out early, then tilt/stall/flipping at the bottom

 

Cool.  Whatever works for each of us.  Good luck. 👍

[liquorandpoker]

[Krt22]

13 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

 

It's just another extraneous move to compensate for other extraneous moves. 

 

Shallowing is something people talk about that I think is valid because it adds speed/energy to the club. It gives you a running start to the ball. 

Except it's not at all a compensation, because it's not occurring as a reaction to something else "bad". It's the opposite really, it's not a move that adds speed by itself. It's a move that prevents needing other compensations later on in the swing, compensations that rob power and speed. If you tip out the shaft early and tilt/stall/flip to shallow and square, you essentially lock out rotation and can't effectively use the ground. If you don't tip out the shaft early, you can then do all of those other things that help generate speed. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[Krt22]

4 minutes ago, buggyblues said:

 

Just stop, you're embarrassing yourself. lulz...

lol, sure bud. That carries a whole lot of weight coming from a troll with 19 posts. I guess that's why tour players embarrass themselves using fancy 3D motion capture systems. 

 

How many times have you been banned and crawled back at this point?

Edited October 20, 2021 by Krt22

[Krt22]

1 minute ago, liquorandpoker said:

This is where we are talking across each other I think.... "and tilt/stall/flip to shallow and square, you essentially lock out rotation and can't effectively use the ground."

 

I'm not sure anyone is endorsing a tilt/stall/flip.

 

But I'll try anything once....

 

Why do trolls like buggy and yourself continue to return to these forums? I really don't get it. You clearly know very little about the golf swing, you guys get banned over and over, yet you still return. You always come back with silly user names and your first posts are always in topics like this, where you immediately go against the grain and start stirring the pot. What is in for you? Are you so bad at golf that you hope to make others bad at golf as well? 

[Krt22]

1 minute ago, buggyblues said:

 

Not saying the soup brand on the menu today may lean toward what you're suggesting, BUT just because that's the current measurement trend today does not mean maintaining, or increasing cup ever so slightly, cannot be just as viable given proper match ups, and is far removed from being a 'universally bad' move, and a notion of such is laughable.   I could string a great number of former tour players who lived at the cup address and drank coffee in the morning but you can find those on your own.    Now go away and play your own game.

And you can go to any range and see a ton of cupped wrists on really bad golfers. Just because a select few exceptionally talented professional golfers who practice 8-10 hours a day can make it work, doesn't mean it isn't nearly a death move for us mere mortals. 

 

And it isn't a "measurement trend", it's cold hard data. I am not going anywhere, but I am guessing your time here is once again limited.

[Krt22]

2 minutes ago, buggyblues said:

 

You can always tell when one is getting lost within a discussion when they bring out the troll nonsense. 

There is really no other word to call it when to low post users are high fiving each other condoning almost universally bad advice. Advice that countless top tier professionals and just anyone with a bit of golf swing knowledge would laugh at. 

 

Assuming you put the club in a decent position at the top, not steepening the shaft early is one of the very clear indicators of a golfers overall skill. I can't see why anyone would be against it, unless they are a troll looking to cause  a riff like you two are now. Ignore list getting updated promptly 

[Zitlow]

24 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Except it's not at all a compensation, because it's not occurring as a reaction to something else "bad". It's the opposite really, it's not a move that adds speed by itself. It's a move that prevents needing other compensations later on in the swing, compensations that rob power and speed. If you tip out the shaft early and tilt/stall/flip to shallow and square, you essentially lock out rotation and can't effectively use the ground. If you don't tip out the shaft early, you can then do all of those other things that help generate speed. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

@Krt22You are a great contributor to the site and you post some really valid material but no one has a monopoly on the universal knowledge base of the golf swing. Even the experts can't come to a consensus on the most efficient method to release energy into a golf ball. 

 

It's a compensation to get the club face on the same plane as the ball because they are using rotation to release the club and without it they would shank it. 

 

I can't read Dustin Johnson's mind but I would bet that in his mind his club face is looking at the ball here. 

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Zitlow

[Zitlow]

Thee is a Honda grip where your left thumb is on the back of the shaft so you can hit low punch shots. The ball goes low because it creates a stop that prevents the shaft from kicking the ball up. 

[Krt22]

27 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

 

@Krt22You are a great contributor to the site and you post some really valid material but no one has a monopoly on the universal knowledge base of the golf swing. Even the experts can't come to a consensus on the most efficient method to release energy into a golf ball. 

 

It's a compensation to get the club face on the same plane as the ball because they are using rotation to release the club and without it they would shank it. 

 

I can't read Dustin Johnson's mind but I would bet that in his mind his club face is looking at the ball here. 

 

Again, compensation is a reactionary occurrence. When you do work for an employer, you are given financial compensation after the work is completed. In biology, our bodies learn to compensate after a deficiency occurs somewhere else.  In the golf swing, compensations occur to counteract other movements which create poor shaft pitch/club face/low point issues.

 

With respect to the lead wrist early in transition, most bad golfers extend the wrist, which opens the face (and pitches the club COM out), they are then forced to compensate with a flip at the bottom early. Simply preventing the face from opening (and the COM from pitching out early) in the swing is not at all a compensation. It's also a bit of a folly to look at the move as solely a face closing measure, because in reality the those wrist movements don't occur independently and to achieve those wrist conditions other good body movements need to occur.

 

DJ is an extreme example, no instructor would be teaching his move unless the golfer had the same crazy physical abilities (Monte included). Semantically speaking, DJ has to rotate like crazy to compensate for his club face position at the top. I have already stated that the amount of flex needed is just "some". To the untrained eye on camera you might not even see it, but instead it would show up as simply not extending the lead wrist to start down. It's one of things where the magnitude of the move isn't nearly as important as the direction of the move.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Krt22

[Zitlow]

@Krt22 The flip is another compensatory move to get the face on the same plane as the ball with their rotational release. Maybe someone came up with the motorcycle move to compensate for flipping. 

 

[DShepley]

36 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Again, compensation is a reactionary occurrence. When you do work for an employer, you are given financial compensation after the work is completed. In biology, our bodies learn to compensate after a deficiency occurs somewhere else.  In the golf swing, compensations occur to counteract other movements which create poor shaft pitch/club face/low point issues.

 

With respect to the lead wrist early in transition, most bad golfers extend the wrist, which opens the face (and pitches the club COM out), they are then forced to compensate with a flip at the bottom early. Simply preventing the face from opening (and the COM from pitching out early) in the swing is not at all a compensation. It's also a bit of a folly to look at the move as solely a face closing measure, because in reality the those wrist movements don't occur independently and to achieve those wrist conditions other good body movements need to occur.

 

DJ is an extreme example, no instructor would be teaching his move unless the golfer had the same crazy physical abilities (Monte included). Semantically speaking, DJ has to rotate like crazy to compensate for his club face position at the top. I have already stated that the amount of flex needed is just "some". To the untrained eye on camera you might not even see it, but instead it would show up as simply not extending the lead wrist to start down. It's one of things where the magnitude of the move isn't nearly as important as the direction of the move.

It's a bit 'chicken eggy' isn't it?  I doubt there is a pro golfer or elite golfer who intentionally makes the motorcycle move.  Because we can measure it and see it doesn't mean that they are making an active effort to crank the throttle.  'The Motorcycle Move'.....it's a marketing term!  Are the pro's actively cranking the throttle, or are their swing conditions and intent creating this transition move?  I'm betting the latter.  Most amateurs can't get the club face to the ball quick enough from the top which causes the cup in transition, (a hit impulse to throw the clubface in a direct line at the ball), while the pros aren't in a hurry and the club shallows as they take the proper path back to the ball.  Perhaps if more amateurs understood the path that their hands and club should take back to the ball, you would be more likely to see the 'Motorcycle Move' happen on it's own.  

[liquorandpoker]

2 minutes ago, DShepley said:

It's a bit 'chicken eggy' isn't it?  I doubt there is a pro golfer or elite golfer who intentionally makes the motorcycle move.  Because we can measure it and see it doesn't mean that they are making an active effort to crank the throttle.  'The Motorcycle Move'.....it's a marketing term!  Are the pro's actively cranking the throttle, or are their swing conditions and intent creating this transition move?  I'm betting the latter.  Most amateurs can't get the club face to the ball quick enough from the top which causes the cup in transition, (a hit impulse to throw the clubface in a direct line at the ball), while the pros aren't in a hurry and the club shallows as they take the proper path back to the ball.  Perhaps if more amateurs understood the path that their hands and club should take back to the ball, you would be more likely to see the 'Motorcycle Move' happen on it's own.  

 

Good take

[ShowMe]

My swing thought to make the motorcycle move is playing the beginning of this song in my head:

 

 

[airjammer]

1 hour ago, DShepley said:

It's a bit 'chicken eggy' isn't it?  I doubt there is a pro golfer or elite golfer who intentionally makes the motorcycle move.  Because we can measure it and see it doesn't mean that they are making an active effort to crank the throttle.  'The Motorcycle Move'.....it's a marketing term!  Are the pro's actively cranking the throttle, or are their swing conditions and intent creating this transition move?  I'm betting the latter.  Most amateurs can't get the club face to the ball quick enough from the top which causes the cup in transition, (a hit impulse to throw the clubface in a direct line at the ball), while the pros aren't in a hurry and the club shallows as they take the proper path back to the ball.  Perhaps if more amateurs understood the path that their hands and club should take back to the ball, you would be more likely to see the 'Motorcycle Move' happen on it's own.  

There are absolutely pros that do a active motorcycle move and it’s usually the ones that are laid off as they don’t have the center of mass in a position to allow the weight to the club bow it for them. Most may not be thinking about it now but at some point they had to ingrain it in the past. 

[Krt22]

58 minutes ago, DShepley said:

It's a bit 'chicken eggy' isn't it?  I doubt there is a pro golfer or elite golfer who intentionally makes the motorcycle move.  Because we can measure it and see it doesn't mean that they are making an active effort to crank the throttle.  'The Motorcycle Move'.....it's a marketing term!  Are the pro's actively cranking the throttle, or are their swing conditions and intent creating this transition move?  I'm betting the latter.  Most amateurs can't get the club face to the ball quick enough from the top which causes the cup in transition, (a hit impulse to throw the clubface in a direct line at the ball), while the pros aren't in a hurry and the club shallows as they take the proper path back to the ball.  Perhaps if more amateurs understood the path that their hands and club should take back to the ball, you would be more likely to see the 'Motorcycle Move' happen on it's own.  

Pros may not consciously do it, but they absolutely are subconsciously doing it, otherwise it wouldn't be so easy to measure it. Even if they say they don't think about it now, they very likely did at some point early in their career. The intent isn't as important as the fact that it is one of the very measurable differences that differentiates really good players from the rest.

 

And would not say it's a marketing term at all, it's just a simplified way to describe the motion since not every golfer understands extension and flexion. Thus if someone wants to learn incorporate it into their swing, they need to put in conscious effort to make a movement change. It's one of the very counter-intuitive parts of the golf swing, if it happened automatically there would be far more highly skilled golfers than there are today. 

 

But you are right, most ams pull the handle down towards the ball (for a variety of reasons), which ends up doing exactly what you said (the opposite of what we want).  One way is to think of it as the motorcycle move, but that is definitely not the only way. Monte has the big huge NTC thread/video series on the same exact wrist motions, where he uses a variety of different feels and swing thoughts to accomplish the same goal.  Heck he talks very openly that pulling the handle was/is one of his main issues thus it's something he still actively works on today. Gankas speaks very little explicitly about the wrists, but if you look at his students using his shallower training aid (which largely focuses on getting the elbows closer together/externally rotating the trail shoulder), it's clear they are flexing their lead wrists in transition as a byproduct of that movement. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

4 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Pros may not consciously do it, but they absolutely are subconsciously doing it, otherwise it wouldn't be so easy to measure it. Even if they say they don't think about it now, they very likely did at some point early in their career. The intent isn't as important as the fact that it is one of the very measurable differences that differentiates really good players from the rest.

 

And would not say it's a marketing term at all, it's just a simplified way to describe the motion since not every golfer understands extension and flexion. Thus if someone wants to learn incorporate it into their swing, they need to put in conscious effort to make a movement change. It's one of the very counter-intuitive parts of the golf swing, if it happened automatically there would be far more highly skilled golfers than there are today. 

 

But you are right, most ams pull the handle down towards the ball (for a variety of reasons), which ends up doing exactly what you said (the opposite of what we want).  One way is to think of it as the motorcycle move, but that is definitely not the only way. Monte has the big huge NTC thread/video series on the same exact wrist motions, where he uses a variety of different feels and swing thoughts to accomplish the same goal.  Heck he talks very openly that pulling the handle was/is one of his main issues thus it's something he still actively works on today. Gankas speaks very little explicitly about the wrists, but if you look at his students using his shallower training aid (which largely focuses on getting the elbows closer together/externally rotating the trail shoulder), it's clear they are flexing their lead wrists in transition as a byproduct of that movement. 

The question is whether or not you have the raw speed to do any of the moves elite players have. 

[Krt22]

2 hours ago, Zitlow said:

@Krt22 The flip is another compensatory move to get the face on the same plane as the ball with their rotational release. Maybe someone came up with the motorcycle move to compensate for flipping. 

 

A flip at the bottom is a compensation for an open face early and generally results in a two way miss/poor low point control.  How is actively stopping that from occurring in the first place a compensation? That literally makes zero sense in the context of a kinematic sequence

[tthomasgolfer605]

57 minutes ago, airjammer said:

There are absolutely pros that do a active motorcycle move and it’s usually the ones that are laid off as they don’t have the center of mass in a position to allow the weight to the club bow it for them. Most may not be thinking about it now but at some point they had to ingrain it in the past. 

Or their brains learned it through trial and error.

[Krt22]

3 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

The question is whether or not you have the raw speed to do any of the moves elite players have. 

No raw speed is needed to prevent the shaft from steepening early. Almost every golfer who doesn't do it, would immediately pick up speed if they could do it. There is almost zero athleticism required to do it, the biggest hurdle most golfers will encounter is a mental one. "This feels weird, this is casting, how can I generate speed from there, etc etc etc"

[Zitlow]

Dropping the left arm takes the left arm and shaft off the plane and requires a compensation to contact the ball. The ball is out in front of you not down at your feet. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Zitlow

[tthomasgolfer605]

7 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

No raw speed is needed to prevent the shaft from steepening early. Almost every golfer who doesn't do it, would immediately pick up speed if they could do it. There is almost zero athleticism required to do it, the biggest hurdle most golfers will encounter is a mental one. "This feels weird, this is casting, how can I generate speed from there, etc etc etc"

Are you speaking of over the toppers, too inside to out or both?

[wagolfer7]

23 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Pros may not consciously do it, but they absolutely are subconsciously doing it, otherwise it wouldn't be so easy to measure it. Even if they say they don't think about it now, they very likely did at some point early in their career. The intent isn't as important as the fact that it is one of the very measurable differences that differentiates really good players from the rest.

 

 

 

I think that's the part that is very debatable.  I've always done this, without being taught it directly or thinking about it directly.  As a youngster my game steadily improved after being taught to swing towards 1 o'clock.  Now - I'm not saying that's correct at all, an inside to out path is not ideal.  However - that intent to come from the inside, makes me do a version of the motorcycle move without thinking or trying, it simply happens.  I believe it's possible that PGA players never thought about doing this, as it came natural with some other intent. 

 

I think that's the frustrating part about this forum at times.  None of us know what a PGA player is thinking, intending to do, etc.  We can have our theories and guesses, but ultimately will probably never get the answer.  

 

I applaud Monte and other instructors for trying new ideas and ways to get players out of known bad positions.  Whether it's an active move or not, can be debated till the end of time.  But as @Krt22 pointed out, shallowing will put you in a better position than not.  If an active motorcycle move, helps players get in a better position to do that, then so be it.  

 

[tthomasgolfer605]

1 minute ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

I think that's the part that is very debatable.  I've always done this, without being taught it directly or thinking about it directly.  As a youngster my game steadily improved after being taught to swing towards 1 o'clock.  Now - I'm not saying that's correct at all, an inside to out path is not ideal.  However - that intent to come from the inside, makes me do a version of the motorcycle move without thinking or trying, it simply happens.  I believe it's possible that PGA players never thought about doing this, as it came natural with some other intent. 

 

I think that's the frustrating part about this forum at times.  None of us know what a PGA player is thinking, intending to do, etc.  We can have our theories and guesses, but ultimately will probably never get the answer.  

 

I applaud Monte and other instructors for trying new ideas and ways to get players out of known bad positions.  Whether it's an active move or not, can be debated till the end of time.  But as @Krt22 pointed out, shallowing will put you in a better position than not.  If an active motorcycle move, helps players get in a better position to do that, then so be it.  

 

I was watching a video with Kris Tschetter who practiced with Ben Hogan a lot. She would record his swings and he'd say he's doing so and so. On camera told a different story and he was doing the opposite of what he felt. 

[Krt22]

5 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Are you speaking of over the toppers, too inside to out or both?

Both. Classic over the toppers never learn to shallow properly, the too inside to out folks learn to shallow incorrectly (many times as a reaction to getting too steep early in transition). IN both cases they stand to gain speed with real extra athleticism required. If anything developing speed on top of certain compensations requires more athleticism. (which is why many athletic ams can play serviceable golf form non-ideal positions)

 

5 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

I think that's the part that is very debatable.  I've always done this, without being taught it directly or thinking about it directly.  As a youngster my game steadily improved after being taught to swing towards 1 o'clock.  Now - I'm not saying that's correct at all, an inside to out path is not ideal.  However - that intent to come from the inside, makes me do a version of the motorcycle move without thinking or trying, it simply happens.  I believe it's possible that PGA players never thought about doing this, as it came natural with some other intent. 

 

I think that's the frustrating part about this forum at times.  None of us know what a PGA player is thinking, intending to do, etc.  We can have our theories and guesses, but ultimately will probably never get the answer.  

 

I applaud Monte and other instructors for trying new ideas and ways to get players out of known bad positions.  Whether it's an active move or not, can be debated till the end of time.  But as @Krt22 pointed out, shallowing will put you in a better position than not.  If an active motorcycle move, helps players get in a better position to do that, then so be it.  

 

Then you are one of the very lucky few to have figured it out on your own, for the vast majority of golfers that isn't the case. But to my earlier point, subconscious or not isn't as important as it happening in the first place. But I agree, the intent/though/feel isn't as important as the actual movement, in this case it's a movement that is measurable. 

[glk]

Tyler has said that good swings he has seen 3D have somewhere between 20*-30* more lead wrist flexion at impact than at setup.    Tyler is one of the first to analyze 3D motion graphs and he has seen 1000s.    I think it is safe to say that one characteristic of good swings is this adding of flexion from setup.    And depending on how much extension is in the lead wrist at setup players can have a bowed, flat,or extended wrist at impact - but they will have all added flexion.

 

Is it conscious, maybe.   Fort Worth Pro commented that he had a junior with a good swing and he just did it naturally.   Others need to work on it.

 

If you want even more info on wrist movements of elite swings, Tyler gave a talk at the WGFS 2018 on arm movements of elite swings - have to be a member of his pay site (or take a free 7 day trial) to view.    https://www.golfsmartacademy.com/golf-instruction/wgfs-2018-arm-movements-elite-golfers/

 

Why do it - I'll let Tyler explain.

 

 

[Zitlow]

7 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

I was watching a video with Kris Tschetter who practiced with Ben Hogan a lot. She would record his swings and he'd say he's doing so and so. On camera told a different story and he was doing the opposite of what he felt. 

 

I've mentioned here before that I took lessons from Mike Austin. He taught a lot of his technique but some of the things he said he did he didn't do. If you want to know the truth I don't think he wanted to give away his secrets. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

4 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Both. Classic over the toppers never learn to shallow properly, the too inside to out folks learn to shallow incorrectly (many times as a reaction to getting too steep early in transition). IN both cases they stand to gain speed with real extra athleticism required. If anything developing speed on top of certain compensations requires more athleticism. (which is why many athletic ams can play serviceable golf form non-ideal positions)

 

Then you are one of the very lucky few to have figured it out on your own, for the vast majority of golfers that isn't the case. But to my earlier point, subconscious or not isn't as important as it happening in the first place. But I agree, the intent/though/feel isn't as important as the actual movement, in this case it's a movement that is measurable. 

This makes me wonder how Phil Mickelson got it done. Great hands?

[wagolfer7]

21 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Then you are one of the very lucky few to have figured it out on your own, for the vast majority of golfers that isn't the case. But to my earlier point, subconscious or not isn't as important as it happening in the first place. But I agree, the intent/though/feel isn't as important as the actual movement, in this case it's a movement that is measurable. 

 

No not at all lucky.  I was one of the ones that was too inside out for a long time.  Shallowed incorrectly.  Still was a grind to figure out how to stop a hook as my miss.