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OEM manufacturing tolerances for irons


TonyDAnnunzio
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What are acceptable manufacturing tolerances for OEMs for irons?  For example, are loft and lie angles of +/- 2 degrees within acceptable range?

 

How about head weights?

 

I was messing around with my Dad's old loft/lie machine this afternoon and put my i210's on there just to measure...  I have not used this machine in over 20 years, it is the "Golf Club and Economy Loft and Lie Machine" GAM final (golfworks.com), and I am sure there may be some "user error" but I checked them three times with a small digital level and was getting the same results within a tenth of a degree each time.  Needless to say, I did get some odd results...

Edited by TonyDAnnunzio
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There are different levels of error that happen.  Every head is made with an error level (usually +/- 1-2º).   Every shaft is going to have slight variations in tip diameter and straightness.  Usually very little, but not perfect.  Then you have the biggest error factor in the human that assembles it.  Sometimes the sum of the errors cancel themselves out, but sometimes you get all the bad in one club and the result is far from spec.  They are all supposedly checked in QC, but even that is not error proof. 

 

Many areas for an error to occur and I think it is amazing that clubs come even close to spec from an OEM.  And we're not even talking SW, length and grip.  If you want good specs, always check them when you get them and correct it yourself.  This is WRX isn't it?

 

It would save me much time and effort if an OEM would just send me the unassembled parts and I'd put them together perfectly the 1st time.

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Based on my experience alone, Wilson (and I hate to say this) has been one of the companies that QC checking is not their strong suit.  My irons were off by as much a 3*.  The swingweight of the PW was off exponentially.  It sucks, because of love their irons.  But unfortunately I won't be going back for my next set.

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My recent T200 5-GW set were all exact on loft and a couple were out by a half degree lie angle.

 

OP was your Ping set brand new, or already played lots of times ?

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9 hours ago, ARL67 said:

My recent T200 5-GW set were all exact on loft and a couple were out by a half degree lie angle.

 

OP was your Ping set brand new, or already played lots of times ?

 

They were not new but had very little play when I purchased them.  I have since put maybe 30-40 rounds on them...

 

The lie angles are off by an average of 1.35 degrees with the greatest difference being 2.25 degrees and the least difference being .35 degrees...  The loft angles are off an average of .84 degrees with the greatest difference being 1.7 degrees and the least difference being .35 degrees.

 

I have since reshafted them but measured the lengths before with the original shafts as they were built delivered.  The lengths were as follows:

4 - 39 3/16"

5 - 38 11/16

6 - 38 3/16

7 - 38 3/16

8 - 37 1/8

9 - 36 11/16

PW - 36 3/16

The measurements were to the top, or "dome", of the grip cap...  The swingweights were consistent at D2 for the 4 - 7 and D3 for the 8 - PW...  I did have to add a 10 gram tip weight to the 7 iron head to get the swingweight consistent when I reshafted.

 

Maybe it was one of those early "Monday morning builds" or they were built by a trainee...  

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Just some random thoughts.

 

8 hours ago, TonyDAnnunzio said:

The lie angles are off by an average of 1.35 degrees with the greatest difference being 2.25

 

Lie angles can be tricky for amateurs to measure accurately, especially with the less expensive gauges.   Not saying there isn't some tolerances out of the factory - but don't assume your measurements are perfect so may not really be a true representation of what the errors are.

 

8 hours ago, TonyDAnnunzio said:

lengths were as follows:

...

The measurements were to the top, or "dome", of the grip cap...

 

1) That's not how most OEM's measure length.   And they always cut based on lengths w/o the grips regardless of what the spec'd lengths are based on.  

2) All it takes is a little impatience with a grip install/replacement and that can throw off the lengths.

 

 

Edited by Stuart_G
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12 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

Just some random thoughts.

 

 

Lie angles can be tricky for amateurs to measure accurately, especially with the less expensive gauges.   Not saying there isn't some tolerances out of the factory - but don't assume your measurements are perfect so may not really be a true representation of what the errors are.

 

 

1) That's not how most OEM's measure length.   And they always cut based on lengths w/o the grips regardless of what the spec'd lengths are based on.  

2) All it takes is a little impatience with a grip install/replacement and that can throw off the lengths.

 

 

 

I am with you on the loft/lie measurements...  I had not used my Dad's machine in 20+ years.  I very seriously doubt my angle measurements were "dead nuts".  I talked with a shop today and am taking the clubs next Monday to get them bent.  Prior to bending them I am going to have the fella measure the loft/lie just to make sure.

 

I watched a video last night of a fella in the PING "tour van" adjusting the loft/lie angles...  I was shocked at how lightly struck the heads with the mallet to change the lie angles.  I can see where hitting balls off of matts could get them out of spec.

 

The measurement I did for the length was just a "rough" measurement to get an idea of where the clubs were...  When I put clubs together I have always measured the length before I put the grips on...  out of curiosity I went out and measured the length of the C-Taper Lites that were originally in my i210's...  below are the measurements:

 

4- 37 3/8

5- 36 13/16

6- 36 5/16

7- 36 5/16

8- 35 1/4

9- 34 11/16

PW - 34 1/16

 

 

 

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I’m much less worried about loft and lie, those are easily adjusted, my bigger concern is headweights and gaps throughout the set. I bought my Srixons ZForged heads only and they are all 7 grams gaps except 5 gram gap between wedge and 9 iron. I bought a set recently from a DTC company gaining a lot of traction here and I had a 15 gram gap between 6 and 5 iron and an 11 gram gap between 6 and 7 iron and 10 gram gap between 8 and 9 iron. I never hit them, just sold them on eBay. 

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It hasn't been answered quite yet.  Standard for most OEMS is typically within 1* of loft and lie and 1 swing weight point and typically about 1/8th of an inch in length.  You get the odd one that is out 2* or so but those tend to be more on the boxed sets that are shipped standard.  It wouldn't surprise me on those if they were running low on a head and just grabbed an upright or flat one to round it out.  

As Stuart_G mentioned, this could be user error or even just differences in the machines.  It wasn't uncommon at the higher end fitting studio I worked at for us to build a set of clubs and a habitual tinkerer come back after a week saying they are not to spec that they were fit for because they took it to their friend/another shop/used their own machine to check our work.  We would then take them to our machine, level it all out and show them it was bang on to what they were fit for and go through the spiel about how each machine is different, etc.

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On 10/20/2021 at 4:43 AM, Stuart_G said:

Just some random thoughts.

 

 

Lie angles can be tricky for amateurs to measure accurately, especially with the less expensive gauges.   Not saying there isn't some tolerances out of the factory - but don't assume your measurements are perfect so may not really be a true representation of what the errors are.

 

 

1) That's not how most OEM's measure length.   And they always cut based on lengths w/o the grips regardless of what the spec'd lengths are based on.  

2) All it takes is a little impatience with a grip install/replacement and that can throw off the lengths.

 

 

 

I think the same thing when I see people saying their OEM equipment is +/-2 degrees. I also think the same thing with all the "tour issue" heads on ebay where the specs are marked well outside any reasonable range of tolerance. 

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29 minutes ago, WristySwing said:

It hasn't been answered quite yet.  Standard for most OEMS is typically within 1* of loft and lie and 1 swing weight point and typically about 1/8th of an inch in length.  You get the odd one that is out 2* or so but those tend to be more on the boxed sets that are shipped standard.  It wouldn't surprise me on those if they were running low on a head and just grabbed an upright or flat one to round it out.  

As Stuart_G mentioned, this could be user error or even just differences in the machines.  It wasn't uncommon at the higher end fitting studio I worked at for us to build a set of clubs and a habitual tinkerer come back after a week saying they are not to spec that they were fit for because they took it to their friend/another shop/used their own machine to check our work.  We would then take them to our machine, level it all out and show them it was bang on to what they were fit for and go through the spiel about how each machine is different, etc.

 

Wristy, those are all things I considered when I did the measurements of the loft/lie the other day in addition that I am sure my technique of using the machine is questionable.  

 

Have you seen the video on youtube showing how PING bends the lie angles and how it is measured?  there are a few different videos out there but this one is titled "tour van build"... or something along those lines.  If you have not seen the video it is worth searching for if this type of thing interests you.  They use a fixture with cameras to measure the loft and lie angles.  IRRC, the fella gets the loft and lie angles dead on...  I know folks talk about how PING adjusts the lie angle with a hammer and the video displays just how little it takes to move the angle.

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All of the posts above are why I say that a loft and lie bending machine is a must for anyone who takes their game seriously and wants to make sure there is no chance that their gear is causing a problem.

 

I have NEVER had my Mitchell Machine calibrated.  Why do you ask?  Because I do not care what the actual reading is, the machine may have altered over time to where it reads 60 and is actually 62, but that doesn't matter.  Once I adopted @Howard_Jones Dry erase way of checking it didn't matter, because I would just adjust on the fly.

 

Yes, I take my Mitchell machine to the range.  Yes I have adjusted lie angles for folks on the range after showing them the method.  What the reading is doesn't matter since I have the machine, what matters is adjusting to get your line perpendicular.

 

Not to mention, how often are the OEM's checking their machines, are they using the machine to "verify" the lie after bending, you know removing it and putting it back in the machine to measure?  Probably not.  Are they using a sperate gauge to measure?  Probably not.   They get an order, slap it together, put it on the machine and bend.  Once it's close enough the grab the next iron, probably never using a gauge to actually measure and only using the machine, not removing and replacing, and a machine that probably hasn't been checked for specs in some time.  All in all this with the fact that there aren't many manufacturers that measure length the same way, therefore SW(which is horrible way to match clubs BTW) can be all over the place.  

 

Are the folks assembling tour van anal in checking everything?  Absolutely, and their knowledge and salaries are probably quite a bit different than the guys in their assembly factory.

 

I order basic from the manufacturer, knowing all of this, so I swap out for my shafts(unless my preferred shafts come cheap) and put it together and finalize it on my own.

 

Edited by driveandputtmachine
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1 hour ago, driveandputtmachine said:

Not to mention, how often are the OEM's checking their machines, are they using the machine to "verify" the lie after bending, you know removing it and putting it back in the machine to measure?  Probably not.  Are they using a sperate gauge to measure?  Probably not.  Are the folks assembling tour van anal in checking everything?  Absolutely not.   They get an order, slap it together, put it on the machine and bend.  Once it's close enough the grab the next iron, probably never using a gauge to actually measure and only using the machine, not removing and replacing, and a machine that probably hasn't been checked for specs in some time.  All in all this with the fact that there aren't many manufacturers that measure length the same way, therefore SW(which is horrible way to match clubs BTW) can be all over the place.  

 

I order basic from the manufacturer, knowing all of this, so I swap out for my shafts(unless my preferred shafts come cheap) and put it together and finalize it on my own.

 

I think you are over generalizing things.  I'm sure the OEM devices are checked for accuracy all the time. 

 

Tour van stuff - all the heads that are in the trucks have all been spec'ed out before they hit the drawers.  The machines in the Tour Vans are all top notch stuff and in perfect shape.  Not like the worn out stuff most people own.  And I'm sure they are verified for accuracy a lot.  Just because you don't see it happen, doesn't mean it doesn't get done.  Some of the stuff I've seen in the TM van is far beyond what the average guy can order for bending and measuring.  I would have no problem believing the stuff they churn out is spot on, spec wise.  And if you look closely at some of the Tour Van videos, the crazy expensive spec measuring devices are there on a bench just in case they want to use it.

 

 

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Just now, Socrates said:

I think you are over generalizing things.  I'm sure the OEM devices are checked for accuracy all the time. 

 

Tour van stuff - all the heads that are in the trucks have all been spec'ed out before they hit the drawers.  The machines in the Tour Vans are all top notch stuff and in perfect shape.  Not like the worn out stuff most people own.  And I'm sure they are verified for accuracy a lot.  Just because you don't see it happen, doesn't mean it doesn't get done.  Some of the stuff I've seen in the TM van is far beyond what the average guy can order for bending and measuring.  I would have no problem believing the stuff they churn out is spot on, spec wise.  And if you look closely at some of the Tour Van videos, the crazy expensive spec measuring devices are there on a bench just in case they want to use it.

 

 

The tour van and what you get are two different things.  I just re-read my message and I misstated what I meant.  The tour van guys are OVER ANAL and make sure everything is on spec and is EACTLY what their tour pros are asking for.

 

The stuff you order that comes out of the OEM's assembly location are not two the same level of precision, the are TWO COMPLETELY different things.

 

I will edit my first message to correct.

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2 hours ago, driveandputtmachine said:

The tour van and what you get are two different things.  I just re-read my message and I misstated what I meant.  The tour van guys are OVER ANAL and make sure everything is on spec and is EACTLY what their tour pros are asking for.

 

The stuff you order that comes out of the OEM's assembly location are not two the same level of precision, the are TWO COMPLETELY different things.

 

I will edit my first message to correct.

Out of all the OEM's, Ping should have the best QC given that so many things during assembly are digitally controlled (length, SW, loft/lie).  Still comes down to the quality of the workers.  This year has been a nightmare in that regard when you have front office staff working on the production floor.  The crush to produce clubs this year has meant that quality control has gone out the window for all of them.  I wouldn't trust any of them right now to get it correct.

Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"

Jazz 3 wd Powercoil Stiff
Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
Rogue 3iron Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
X2 Hot 4-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
Vokey SM2 52º cc, Ping ES 56º and ES 60º
Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.75"
MCC Align Midsize

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7 minutes ago, Socrates said:

Out of all the OEM's, Ping should have the best QC given that so many things during assembly are digitally controlled (length, SW, loft/lie).  Still comes down to the quality of the workers.  This year has been a nightmare in that regard when you have front office staff working on the production floor.  The crush to produce clubs this year has meant that quality control has gone out the window for all of them.  I wouldn't trust any of them right now to get it correct.

I only know about one particular OEM and their assembly folks, and it is not Ping.  In the best of times the folks there were not highly skilled or highly paid, obviously as time goes on people get better, but in general even during the best of times, to expect any non tour van to get your specs bang on is a fool's errand.  TBH unless you already know this particular clubhead and shaft(ie you were fitted somewhere and know what shaft droop lean and how your clubs should be bent with those exact shafts) having them bent just doesn't seem like you are going to get exactly what you want.

 

Even buying two Manufacturer X shafts of the same model and flex there are tolerances and you might not need 2* across the whole set.  Just because you do on the 6 iron you tested, doesn't mean you need it on all irons as well.  L Not to mention if you are going from one set of irons and shafts to another the characteristics could be completely different and having them bent could put you in a worse position.

 

This is why I say that a bending machine is the number one thing folks that really get into this type of thing and want their equipment bang on should invest in.  I got lucky and snagged a Mitchell for 400 shipped on ebay from a golf shop that went out of business, and I know these machines are expensive, but to remove all worry from your mind if you are the type of golfer that worries about these things it just makes sense.

 

Exactly what you said about new people having to work in places they haven't before.  During the best of times you had people at least mostly trained doing these things.  Now you are getting sales reps, marketing folks, accountants and others down helping to make clubs.  The fact that people aren't going back to work for jobs like these lets you know how little they were being paid.

 

 

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  • Driver - Callaway Epic Max LS on Ventus Purple
  • 3 Wood - Taylormade SIM2 Titanium - testing shafts
  • 7 Wood - Company that shall not be named, turned down 1* and open on a UST Mamaiya Black
  • Hybrid - Cobra King Tec 17* 
  • Util - Srixon ZXU 18* on Recoil 110
  • Irons - Srixon ZX5 4&5 iron on Recoil 110
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  • Wedges - Clevelland 46* Zipcore, Cleveland 50* mid Zipcore, Cleveland 54* mid Zipcore, Cleveland Zipcore 60* Mid all on Recoil 110
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      • 6 replies
    • 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open WITB Photos- Discussion & Links
      Please put any questions or comments here...
       
      Links:
       
      Harry Higgs - WITB - 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open
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      • 15 replies

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