Is this a fair money game?

[2bGood]

15 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

Of course you can do whatever you like but everyone getting all their strokes is an advantage to the LOWER caps.

 Yes this a common low cap scam - "lets play off the card today..."😀

 

High Handicappers that are not educated on the system think it is great as the get all their strokes, but someone educated on the system realises all this does is move the strokes to where they are less likely to be relevant. 

[nsxguy]

15 minutes ago, GHIN n Juice said:

Jesus, all I’m saying is there are different ways to play it.  I’ve played match play events several ways and they all work out fine.  The 2 most popular ways, besides scratch, that I’ve played are those noted above. 

 

No need to get excited. Of course you can play any way you want.

 

If your cap is 3 strokes lower than your buddy and you can get him to give YOU 3 strokes, by all means go for it.

 

Heck, I had a guy in my club with an ego twice the size of him who wanted to play me even up while my cap was 3 strokes better than his.

 

Given we didn't get along very well I'd take the bet every time. HE thought (at one time when we discussed it) we were "about even" over the years.

 

I smiled at him and said "Yeah, that's about right". I can guarantee I beat him at least 70% of the time. Who am I to give away "free money" ?!?!?! LOL

 

The discussion has been about match play and stroke allocation.

 

You can follow USGA guidelines if you like,,,,,,,,,,, or not.

 

As they say so often in Thailand "Up to you". 🙃

 

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by nsxguy

[GHIN n Juice]

1 minute ago, nsxguy said:

 

No need to get excited. Of course you can play any way you want.

 

If your cap is 3 stroke lower than your buddy and you can get him to give YOU 3 strokes, by all means go for it.

 

The discussion has been about match play and stroke allocation.

 

You can follow USGA guidelines if you like,,,,,,,,,,, or not.

 

As they say so often in Thailand "Up to you". 🙃

 

 

Whew, I was worried I didn’t have your permission to play 😆

[b.helts]

1 minute ago, 2bGood said:

 Yes this a common low cap scam - "lets play off the card today..."😀

 

High Handicappers that are not educated on the system think it is great as the get all their strokes, but someone educated on the system realises all this does is move the strokes to where they are less likely to be relevant. 

Does this hold true for plus handicaps?

 

Its pretty hard, in my experience, to make par on the 16th handicap hole, a 175 yard par 3 and take a net bogey and not lose the hole to a 1 handicap most of the time. 

[Petethreeput]

15 hours ago, GHIN n Juice said:

Either everyone gets all their pops, or you play net off the lowest cap.  So, the 3 would be scratch, the 4 would get1, the 5 would get 2 and the 6 would get 3.

I disagree, this is an extension of the idea where everyone gets their pops.

 

We do it by team.  So in the scenario given, the teams are 7 HDCP v 11 HDCP so the highest handicap would get 4 strokes on the 4 holes handicapped 1-4.  As another poster suggested it is more than likely 2 a side.  If the team of two with the higher cap is the same, then before we tee off the team declares which person gets the strokes on the front v back.

 

This is how we do it, and consistently, the bets that go out one week come back in the next, so over our 7 year experiment I would guess I am +/- $10. 

[PixlPutterman]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

The "beauty" of match play is that one can have a blow up hole and only lose the one hole and still have a chance.

 

In stroke play, between 2 players very close in ability, a blow up hole basically ends the match right there,,,,,,,,,, unless the other player also has a blow up hole,,,,,,,,,, which, as has been pointed out, happens rather seldom.

Just seemed like it put more pressure on me to keep a clean round. I shot better than our stroke differential and they won due to pops.

 

Maybe I just dont like the beauty of match play when its not straight up.

 

I have played plenty of stroke play with pops and it evens out.

[PixlPutterman]

1 hour ago, b.helts said:

I don’t think I have ever gotten shots. I mean that literally in 30+ years of playing. 
 

But I’ve given hundreds, thousands of shots in all kinds of games with all kinds of people. 
 

The golf handicap system, while not perfect, is absolutely amazing.

 

Play better 😃

I did play better lol 

 

I played better than my cap, they played worse than their cap, I lost lol

[PixlPutterman]

So it seems the consensus is that it IS fair, but that I just dont like the format.

 

I can live with that lol

[nsxguy]

4 minutes ago, PixlPutterman said:

So it seems the consensus is that it IS fair, but that I just dont like the format.

 

I can live with that lol

 

Yeah, I don't like it when I lose either.

 

I mean in your 1st post you said "I shot 1 under on the front and they shot 39 each and you're ("only") 1 up on the front"

 

Didn't you watch the Ryder Cup ? Your match wasn't all that far from totally even. You could've been 3 down. I could only imagine the title of the thread THEN.

 

We all have preferred formats. You don't like match play - especially with strokes. No worries.

 

But despite ol'  @2bGood always wanting to get strokes, it's been my experience the lower cap has the advantage, even when giving strokes. I think there's probably data out there to support this but I'm too lazy to go find it.

 

After all, strokes aren't meant to make things totally even.

 

They're to make a "fair" game between disparate skill levels.

 

Imagine trying to do that with tennis.

[TwistedSister]

15 hours ago, jvincent said:

Our ex-club champ made a triple on the 18th hole of the final round of this year's club championship which forced a playoff that he lost.

 

Tee shot OB, and chopped it around on his second ball. He's a +3 and probably hasn't made triple on that hole in many years. Golf happens.

My point exactly .  One in many years!

[2bGood]

1 minute ago, b.helts said:

Does this hold true for plus handicaps?

 

Its pretty hard, in my experience, to make par on the 16th handicap hole, a 175 yard par 3 and take a net bogey and not lose the hole to a 1 handicap most of the time. 

Yes it should, but you offer up an extreme example. 

 

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

Yeah, I don't like it when I lose either.

 

I mean in your 1st post you said "I shot 1 under on the front and they shot 39 each and you're ("only") 1 up on the front"

 

Didn't you watch the Ryder Cup ? Your match wasn't all that far from totally even. You could've been 3 down. I could only imagine the title of the thread THEN.

 

We all have preferred formats. You don't like match play - especially with strokes. No worries.

 

But despite ol'  @2bGood always wanting to get strokes, it's been my experience the lower cap has the advantage, even when giving strokes. I think there's probably data out there to support this but I'm too lazy to go find it.

 

After all, strokes aren't meant to make things totally even.

 

They're to make a "fair" game between disparate skill levels.

 

Imagine trying to do that with tennis.

Yes the data generally supports that in one on one matches the lower handicap wins more often. Things shift when you get to larger field and other formats.

[2bGood]

2 hours ago, b.helts said:

Does this hold true for plus handicaps?

 

Its pretty hard, in my experience, to make par on the 16th handicap hole, a 175 yard par 3 and take a net bogey and not lose the hole to a 1 handicap most of the time. 

 

Yes + handicaps really mess things up - that's why the recommended system is to play off the low handicap not the card.

 

In the real world I find it exceedingly rare for near scratch golfers to play with strokes.

[b.helts]

2 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

 

Yes + handicaps really mess things up - that's why the recommended system is to play off the low handicap not the card.

 

In the real world I find it exceedingly rare for near scratch golfers to play with strokes.

 

In my experience, you can bet your bottom dollar that I'm giving the 1 handicap two a side in a match. LOL

 

But in a pot skins game, yeah, we all play gross.

 

But yes, I agree that if I play as zero and the 1 plays as a 4, that is more equitable.

 

[Abh159]

6 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

In the real world I find it exceedingly rare for near scratch golfers to play with strokes.

 

Our regular group of weekend players (15 - 25 people) all fall between a +3 and a 3 handicap. 

 

We've never used handicaps and/or given strokes in our weekend games. The only time those are ever considered is club events like the member/member, member/guest, and so on.

[PixlPutterman]

On the card I would have won if we did the same format in stroke play, with the pops.

 

Back nine my 2some won so at the end of the day it was a wash for money. I got lucky and holed a 40 footer with 8 feet of break for bird on 17 that swung things one hole our direction.

 

Ended up shooting 75 to their 80 and 81, my partner shooting 78. So I definitely beat the cap differential.

Edited October 20, 2021 by PixlPutterman

[nsxguy]

2 minutes ago, PixlPutterman said:

On the card I would have won if we did the same format in stroke play, with the pops.

 

Back nine my 2some won so at the end of the day it was a wash for money. I got lucky and holed a 40 footer with 8 feet of break for bird on 17 that swung things one hole our direction.

 

Ended up shooting 75 to their 80 and 81, my partner shooting 78. So I definitely beat the cap differential.

 

So the match ended up DEAD EVEN.

 

Guess the system works.

 

It turned out to be a "fair game" after all.

[2bGood]

4 hours ago, PixlPutterman said:

On the card I would have won if we did the same format in stroke play, with the pops.

 

Back nine my 2some won so at the end of the day it was a wash for money. I got lucky and holed a 40 footer with 8 feet of break for bird on 17 that swung things one hole our direction.

 

Ended up shooting 75 to their 80 and 81, my partner shooting 78. So I definitely beat the cap differential.

I think you miss some of the fun of foursomes. You are supposed to 'ham and egg' it around the course. If your partner is in good shape for par - you play way more aggressive to try to make birdie. I play holes differently in foursomes than I ever would in stroke play so looking at my overall score is irrelevant.

 

A good example is a tight front pin over water. Stroke play event - I hit to the centre of the green almost always. In foursomes if my partner is on the green in regulation I am playing to the pin for birdie but bringing bogie or worse into play if I don't hit it perfect.  Both my partner and I making pars does us no good, so the high risk/reward play makes sense. 

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by 2bGood

[PixlPutterman]

15 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

So the match ended up DEAD EVEN.

 

Guess the system works.

 

It turned out to be a "fair game" after all.

 

 

I guess Im not used to not winning when I win in gross and net stroke 🙂

[Shilgy]

18 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

A stroke.

 

@PixlPutterman

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/Appendix C Handicap Allowances.htm

 

You're playing a four-ball

 

IF those caps are your COURSE handicaps, as I read it, you'd first take 90% of your CH.

 

So it'd be 3, 4, 5, and 5

 

1st player gets 0, 2nd gets 1 shot on the #1 hdcp hole, 3rd and 4th get 2 shots, 1 each on the 1st and 2nd hdcp hole.

Ah yes grasshopper….but you are using the old method of calculating 90%.  With the current method you calculate the 90% off the index and then round. So depending on where the cut off is any or all could lose one stroke on their playing handicap.  A low 3 could become a 2 and a high 6 might just stay a 6.

[nsxguy]

20 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Ah yes grasshopper….but you are using the old method of calculating 90%.  With the current method you calculate the 90% off the index and then round. So depending on where the cut off is any or all could lose one stroke on their playing handicap.  A low 3 could become a 2 and a high 6 might just stay a 6.

 

Did I get the wrong page ? Or am I reading/applying it incorrectly ?

 

"Handicap allowances are applied to the Course Handicap as the final step in calculating a player’s Playing Handicap (see Rule 6.1 Course Handicap Calculation and Rule 6.2 Playing Handicap Calculation)."

 

 

[Mudguard]

1 hour ago, Abh159 said:

 

Our regular group of weekend players (15 - 25 people) all fall between a +3 and a 3 handicap. 

 

We've never used handicaps and/or given strokes in our weekend games. The only time those are ever considered is club events like the member/member, member/guest, and so on.

 

How often does three handicap have a better gross than the plus three? 

 

Sounds like our club champs where the senior was + to 7.8 index. Problem is the winner of the last two years in on +5. So it meant he had a course handicap of +4 competing against 12 handicaps in a gross event. 

[Abh159]

53 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

 

How often does three handicap have a better gross than the plus three? 

 

It's not as rare as you may think. It's a pretty tough course where your whole round can depend on 2-3 approach shots on the hardest holes so on any given day that +3 or any of the + caps might shoot 80. 

 

FWIW we always keep up with our individual scores for skins and handicap purposes, but we'll usually do some variation of a team stroke play event for the overall money pool. Therefore the highest handicaps usually get teamed up with the lowest so things even out. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Abh159

[david.c.w]

13 minutes ago, Abh159 said:

 

It's not as rare as you may think. It's a pretty tough course where your whole round can depend on 2-3 approach shots on the hardest holes so on any given day that +3 or any of the + caps might shoot 80. 

 

FWIW we always keep up with our individual scores for skins and handicap purposes, but we'll usually do some variation of a team stroke play event for the overall money pool. Therefore the highest handicaps usually get teamed up with the lowest so things even out. 

 

So you don't use USGA handicaps, but you handicap the groups yourself.   A bit different than the previous statement of "We've never used handicaps and/or given strokes in our weekend games."

 

Would be interesting for you to blind draw the teams and use USGA handicaps and see where you land.

 

[b.helts]

5 minutes ago, david.c.w said:

 

So you don't use USGA handicaps, but you handicap the groups yourself.   A bit different than the previous statement of "We've never used handicaps and/or given strokes in our weekend games."

 

Would be interesting for you to blind draw the teams and use USGA handicaps and see where you land.

 

EXACTLY!! Nailed it!

[mark m]

Random thoughts:

 

Try the game for 30 years, and report back! It will likely be a mixed bag. But if the handicaps are legit, the $$ +/- will be reasonable or the game won’t last. An occasional meeting helps to clear the air and maintain a good group game.

 

If presses are involved, where strokes fall is important and can determine if you press (or not) when down. If the spread is more than a few strokes, finishing holes are often stroke holes. Just the way it is. 
 

As a long time plus/scratch, if the higher guys play well, you’re probably beat. I recall pressing and I birdied the last 3 holes. And we lost them all as they birdied with strokes! Stuff happens. So they bought us a couple of pints with our money after play! It’s all good.  Winners typically buy. It’s competitive but lots of laughs as well. 

 

 

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Did I get the wrong page ? Or am I reading/applying it incorrectly ?

 

"Handicap allowances are applied to the Course Handicap as the final step in calculating a player’s Playing Handicap (see Rule 6.1 Course Handicap Calculation and Rule 6.2 Playing Handicap Calculation)."

 

 

Pretty sure I’m correct.  If I plug in names and let GHIN calculate and do a 80% calculation this is what happens. 
 

one 4 CH stays a 4 PH.  Another 4 goes to a 3.  One 7  CH goes to a 6 while two other 7’s go to a 5 PH.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Shilgy

[jdl]

22 hours ago, PixlPutterman said:

Money aside, is this game fair to all parties?

 

4some

 

2v2

 

3 handicap and a 4 handicap against a 5 and a 6

 

Match play best ball with pops

 

Seems to me the addition of pops favors the higher caps. 

 

I've never played match play with pops.

 

I shot 1 under on the front and they shot 39 each...and we're 1 up on the front from getting two pops and to my no pops.

 

I feel like it should be stroke play or remove the pops?

 

 

3,4,5, & 6? That's not bad, try playing someone when you're giving up 8 or 9 "pops" and they shoot an 82. 🤬

 

I'd think the 5 and 6 might be willing to play straight up, but a couple of strokes isn't a big deal.

[mark m]

Here

 

 

[2bGood]

3 hours ago, Mudguard said:

 

How often does three handicap have a better gross than the plus three? 

I find people always talk about these things as if they are static. You may notice in my profile my handicap is a range not a number. Most of the guys I play with are playing 3-6 times a week and their handicaps move up and down in a 3 or 4 strokes range pretty regularly. It is not that unusual for one guy to be 2 strokes lower than me one day and few weeks later for me to be 2 strokes lower than them. Then when you make it match play (or even more so foursomes) the odds of me (and my partner) beating a lower handicap (who recently had the same handicap) are pretty decent.

 

So if you play with the guys regularly and you know what their typical range is, it pretty easy to ignore handicap and play straight up. 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by 2bGood

[Augster]

This thread is very odd. Never played net fourball? It’s the most played game in the world. 
 

Personally, for everyday play, foursomes is awful. There is too much trying to ram putts in and trying hero shots. Play high/low instead. Instead of 1-up, 1-down etc. there are 2 points per hole (hi/low). Subtract out the low guy and go play. No need for 80%, or 90%. Because the high is playing also, 100% PH then subtract out the low guy. 
 

Fourball is great for bigger, club vs. club matches etc. But for day to day play, High/Low is much better. Nobody is in their pocket very often.