Is this a fair money game?

[nsxguy]

4 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

You’ve got it correct now.   Because Larry left it out I clarified.  Not sure if he needed it.

 

He didn't.

 

He's one of youse guys that got it right the first time.

[Shilgy]

Just now, nsxguy said:

 

He didn't.

 

He's one of youse guys that got it right the first time.

I’m old and forgot that?🤣

[PixlPutterman]

3 hours ago, Augster said:

People that prefer stroke play over match play just like to watch their friends struggle to putt out for a 13 while the entire course waits. 

 

Only if it's for money

[Mudguard]

On 10/21/2021 at 11:27 AM, 2bGood said:

I find people always talk about these things as if they are static. You may notice in my profile my handicap is a range not a number. Most of the guys I play with are playing 3-6 times a week and their handicaps move up and down in a 3 or 4 strokes range pretty regularly. It is not that unusual for one guy to be 2 strokes lower than me one day and few weeks later for me to be 2 strokes lower than them. Then when you make it match play (or even more so foursomes) the odds of me (and my partner) beating a lower handicap (who recently had the same handicap) are pretty decent.

 

So if you play with the guys regularly and you know what their typical range is, it pretty easy to ignore handicap and play straight up. 

 

 

 

I would say in the grand scheme of things it's very unusual to have so much handicap variation. As for handicap range, that doesn't make much sense. You have an index, and that's it. Even someone playing 18 rounds in three weeks is still only getting their eight best of their last twenty so it would require pretty wild variations in form.

 

Maybe you use a different handicap system. Who knows. If you play straight up, why bother with handicaps at all?

 

 

[Mudguard]

On 10/21/2021 at 9:19 AM, Abh159 said:

 

It's not as rare as you may think. It's a pretty tough course where your whole round can depend on 2-3 approach shots on the hardest holes so on any given day that +3 or any of the + caps might shoot 80. 

 

 

I don't know many plus handicappers that have blow out rounds. That's why their handicaps are so low.

I wonder how many 16 handicappers would play a 10 off the stick? I certainly wouldn't! So see no difference with a 3 vs a +3. That's a six shot difference in ability. 

 

[nsxguy]

On 10/20/2021 at 6:27 PM, 2bGood said:

I find people always talk about these things as if they are static. You may notice in my profile my handicap is a range not a number. Most of the guys I play with are playing 3-6 times a week and their handicaps move up and down in a 3 or 4 strokes range pretty regularly. It is not that unusual for one guy to be 2 strokes lower than me one day and few weeks later for me to be 2 strokes lower than them. Then when you make it match play (or even more so foursomes) the odds of me (and my partner) beating a lower handicap (who recently had the same handicap) are pretty decent.

 

So if you play with the guys regularly and you know what their typical range is, it pretty easy to ignore handicap and play straight up. 

 

 

 

I don't know. That sounds very unusual to me.

 

A high round gets thrown out and a "best 8" round generally kicks out another best 8 round and may not even lower the index.

 

And 2 things. Foursomes doesn't count for handicaps

 

and

 

I don't understand AT ALL what you mean by "the odds of me (and my partner) beating a lower handicap (who recently had the same handicap) are pretty decent" when you don't quote any handicaps at all.

 

[2bGood]

54 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I don't know. That sounds very unusual to me.

 

A high round gets thrown out and a "best 8" round generally kicks out another best 8 round and may not even lower the index.

 

And 2 things. Foursomes doesn't count for handicaps

 

and

 

I don't understand AT ALL what you mean by "the odds of me (and my partner) beating a lower handicap (who recently had the same handicap) are pretty decent" when you don't quote any handicaps at all.

 

Here you go based on our round today - we played single strokes play and a few individual matches  (we switch around):

 

I am 4 today - but ranged from 2 to 7 this year.

One of the guys was 3 today and has ranged from 3-6 

The other is 5 and ranged from 4-7 

The last is guy was a 4 and also ranged from 3-6 

 

As we play lots (4 or 5 rounds a week) a good week and we can drop fast, a bad two weeks and we go up even with 8/20. 

 

So today we had a 3 (who was 4 on Wednesday), two 4's (one was a 3 last week) and 5 who was 4 last week). If we looked at indexes - the difference is even more slight.

 

We played even today. The 5 won. He went back to a 4 when he posted as he shot 1 over, and I went up to 5 as I knocked out a low round. Tomorrow we play again and I feel pretty good about my chances even though the 3 is two strokes better than me today - but normally I shoot lower than him. 

Edited October 24, 2021 by 2bGood

[Shilgy]

17 hours ago, 2bGood said:

Here you go based on our round today - we played single strokes play and a few individual matches  (we switch around):

 

I am 4 today - but ranged from 2 to 7 this year.

One of the guys was 3 today and has ranged from 3-6 

The other is 5 and ranged from 4-7 

The last is guy was a 4 and also ranged from 3-6 

 

As we play lots (4 or 5 rounds a week) a good week and we can drop fast, a bad two weeks and we go up even with 8/20. 

 

So today we had a 3 (who was 4 on Wednesday), two 4's (one was a 3 last week) and 5 who was 4 last week). If we looked at indexes - the difference is even more slight.

 

We played even today. The 5 won. He went back to a 4 when he posted as he shot 1 over, and I went up to 5 as I knocked out a low round. Tomorrow we play again and I feel pretty good about my chances even though the 3 is two strokes better than me today - but normally I shoot lower than him. 

You ranged from 2-7? The way you phrase that I am guessing you mean course handicap?  If index you somehow blew right through the soft cap and up against the hard cap.

 If course handicap I am guessing the 5 stroke swing in handicap is barely over 3.  Meaning you went from a very high 2 to a very low 7.  Could have just as easily been a range of 3-6….but just slid in on the high and low end.

[2bGood]

5 hours ago, Shilgy said:

You ranged from 2-7? The way you phrase that I am guessing you mean course handicap?  If index you somehow blew right through the soft cap and up against the hard cap.

 If course handicap I am guessing the 5 stroke swing in handicap is barely over 3.  Meaning you went from a very high 2 to a very low 7.  Could have just as easily been a range of 3-6….but just slid in on the high and low end.

Yes taking about course handicap. Would it make more sense to you if I said I ranged from 7-2?

 

I started the season high as I had arm surgery nearly 2 years ago and did hit the hard cap on the high end when I tried to come back last season to golf and started this season as a 7. Once I got back to 'my game' I got down to around 3-4 most of the season. 

 

Comically and almost as if scripted I shot 2 under par today (playing off of 5) and won everything. When I posted my score I went down to a 4 again (nearly a 3). 

 

At any rate - as the guys I play with all range around the same cap, playing straight up has always made sense to us. 

 

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, 2bGood said:

Yes taking about course handicap. Would it make more sense to you if I said I ranged from 7-2?

 

I started the season high as I had arm surgery nearly 2 years ago and did hit the hard cap on the high end when I tried to come back last season to golf and started this season as a 7. Once I got back to 'my game' I got down to around 3-4 most of the season. 

 

Comically and almost as if scripted I shot 2 under par today (playing off of 5) and won everything. When I posted my score I went down to a 4 again (nearly a 3). 

 

At any rate - as the guys I play with all range around the same cap, playing straight up has always made sense to us. 

 

It wasn’t that it didn’t make sense.   NSX felt the 5 stroke swing in your handicap was large….and it was at it would be hitting the hard cap if it were your index.  Which is why I asked that earlier.  I was pointing out to him really, and you a bit I guess, that going going from 2-7 course handicap could likely be closer to a 3 stroke variance if it were from a high 2 to a low 7.  So barely more than going from 3-6.

[Augster]

2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

It wasn’t that it didn’t make sense.   NSX felt the 5 stroke swing in your handicap was large….and it was at it would be hitting the hard cap if it were your index.  Which is why I asked that earlier.  I was pointing out to him really, and you a bit I guess, that going going from 2-7 course handicap could likely be closer to a 3 stroke variance if it were from a high 2 to a low 7.  So barely more than going from 3-6.

I don’t find his index range all that improbable just based on my own cap fluctuations. 
 

I was a hard capped 7.7 April 4-17. 
 

I was a 3.2 as of 7/6. 
 

I was a 7.1 again on 8/11. 
 

And I’m a 5.9 now. 
 

Without the hard cap I would have been over a 10 index my scores were so bad. 
 

Index fluctuates when you suck at golf. 

[jvincent]

6 hours ago, Augster said:

I don’t find his index range all that improbable just based on my own cap fluctuations. 
 

I was a hard capped 7.7 April 4-17. 
 

I was a 3.2 as of 7/6. 
 

I was a 7.1 again on 8/11. 
 

And I’m a 5.9 now. 
 

Without the hard cap I would have been over a 10 index my scores were so bad. 
 

Index fluctuates when you suck at golf. 

 

I feel this.

 

Game was a little scruffy this summer and out of nowhere I fired an even par 72. Enter the "exceptional score reduction" and I went from a 7.2 to 5.1 in one round.

 

Proceed to chop it around for the next 3-4 weeks and ended up hitting a soft-cap limited 8.2 before I sorted myself out and I'm back to 6.1. I was actually one birdie away from triggering a second ESR on my way back down.

 

gOlf iS HaRd.

[Shilgy]

7 hours ago, Augster said:

I don’t find his index range all that improbable just based on my own cap fluctuations. 
 

I was a hard capped 7.7 April 4-17. 
 

I was a 3.2 as of 7/6. 
 

I was a 7.1 again on 8/11. 
 

And I’m a 5.9 now. 
 

Without the hard cap I would have been over a 10 index my scores were so bad. 
 

Index fluctuates when you suck at golf. 

I get it…..I have seen others bounce around a ton as well.  
 

Again, I was just pointing out that because each course handicap is a range, not an absolute number the course handicap can vary much more than the index. For instance…on my home course a 5 course handicap is a 3.5 to 4.3.   A 10 course handicap is 7.7 to 8.5.  So a player that moves from 5-10 course handicap might have moved from 3.5 to 8.5….and get hard capped or he may have “just” gone from 4.3 to 7.7 and barely have been soft capped.

[2bGood]

19 hours ago, Shilgy said:

It wasn’t that it didn’t make sense.   NSX felt the 5 stroke swing in your handicap was large….and it was at it would be hitting the hard cap if it were your index.  Which is why I asked that earlier.  I was pointing out to him really, and you a bit I guess, that going going from 2-7 course handicap could likely be closer to a 3 stroke variance if it were from a high 2 to a low 7.  So barely more than going from 3-6.

 

Yes it sounds large, but is more about where the decimal points fall. 

That is another funny part about playing with guys close in cap to you. Your indexes might be less than a stroke difference, but it can calculate into a stroke difference for course handicap. That is why we don't really worry about it.

 

Funny enough the guy with typically the highest cap in our group is also the guy that just may have the lowest average score. I am the guy with typically the lowest handicap, but my average score can be pretty high (likely higher than his). I can go low, but also show up and shoot 10 over easy. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by 2bGood

[eht8266]

On 10/19/2021 at 4:04 PM, PixlPutterman said:

Money aside, is this game fair to all parties?

 

4some

 

2v2

 

3 handicap and a 4 handicap against a 5 and a 6

 

Match play best ball with pops

 

Seems to me the addition of pops favors the higher caps. 

 

I've never played match play with pops.

 

I shot 1 under on the front and they shot 39 each...and we're 1 up on the front from getting two pops and to my no pops.

 

I feel like it should be stroke play or remove the pops?

 

 

 

Isn't this the reason why handicaps exist?

[PixlPutterman]

1 minute ago, eht8266 said:

 

Isn't this the reason why handicaps exist?

Didnt feel like reading all 4 pages did ya 😉

[eht8266]

We have a couple of groups that are in the area of scratch (+1 to -2). As a 7, they have no problems giving me these shots. Usually we net off of the low - sometimes we do CH / sometimes its PH - may matter but usually doesn't. There are two games we do - either match or umbrella (similar to vegas).

 

1. A 2v2 match works itself out. As a 7, I usually will not beat anyone gross. I'll shoot a 75/76 on occasion but that'll be the 1 in 10 round. Yes the blowup holes are discarded, but unless both players on the same team puke all over themselves, there's a safety net. It's only worth a point, but that's the same way match play works 1v1 - loss of hole, that's it.

 

2. Umbrella is also 2v2 with pops scores as follows: 2 points low ball, 2 points team, 1 for closest to pin, and 1 for a birdie. Get all 6 and that's the team umbrella which doubles up to 12 points. This again works itself out - but there's a premium for birdies (which favors the low guys).

 

Handicaps work in both formats as an equitable way of friendly competition.

[davep043]

6 minutes ago, eht8266 said:

We have a couple of groups that are in the area of scratch (+1 to -2). As a 7, they have no problems giving me these shots. Usually we net off of the low - sometimes we do CH / sometimes its PH - may matter but usually doesn't. There are two games we do - either match or umbrella (similar to vegas).

 

1. A 2v2 match works itself out. As a 7, I usually will not beat anyone gross. I'll shoot a 75/76 on occasion but that'll be the 1 in 10 round. Yes the blowup holes are discarded, but unless both players on the same team puke all over themselves, there's a safety net. It's only worth a point, but that's the same way match play works 1v1 - loss of hole, that's it.

 

2. Umbrella is also 2v2 with pops scores as follows: 2 points low ball, 2 points team, 1 for closest to pin, and 1 for a birdie. Get all 6 and that's the team umbrella which doubles up to 12 points. This again works itself out - but there's a premium for birdies (which favors the low guys).

 

Handicaps work in both formats as an equitable way of friendly competition.

Handicaps work fine, if the players are honest.  In my group of friends, we all post properly, and we pretty much even out the money through a season.  As it turns out, the OP has decided that what he really doesn't care for is match play.  The idea that winning a hole by 4 strokes counts exactly the same as losing a hole by a single stroke seems unfair,  We're all different, we each enjoy different things.  Personally, I prefer match play to stroke play.  I'll claim that its tradition, golf started as a match play game, as can be seen looking at the original Rules.

 

[PixlPutterman]

2 hours ago, davep043 said:

Handicaps work fine, if the players are honest.  In my group of friends, we all post properly, and we pretty much even out the money through a season.  As it turns out, the OP has decided that what he really doesn't care for is match play.  The idea that winning a hole by 4 strokes counts exactly the same as losing a hole by a single stroke seems unfair,  We're all different, we each enjoy different things.  Personally, I prefer match play to stroke play.  I'll claim that its tradition, golf started as a match play game, as can be seen looking at the original Rules.

 

To be more clear, I dont mind match play, I just didnt care for it paired with 2 man best ball plus pops. Just seemed like too much of a safety net for the higher handicaps to me.

[davep043]

3 minutes ago, PixlPutterman said:

To be more clear, I dont mind match play, I just didnt care for it paired with 2 man best ball plus pops. Just seemed like too much of a safety net for the higher handicaps to me.

And yet, those who study the statistics say that the odds are really close, and may favor the lower handicaps in many situations.

[PixlPutterman]

1 minute ago, davep043 said:

And yet, those who study the statistics say that the odds are really close, and may favor the lower handicaps in many situations.

 

Which is why Im no longer arguing the fairness of it and have settled on not preferring it......

 

I was just clarifying my dislike of it isnt simply just match play....

[PixlPutterman]

Ill ask a slightly different question, and I may have missed it being answered in this thread already.....

 

Being they were so close to me in cap, the max was 3 pops for one guy and 2 for the other........where do they get them? The hardest holes? Easiest? Same difference?

 

Seems like us being so close in cap, the hardest holes, Im not that much more likely to birdie those holes either.....giving them a high probability of winning that hole when we both par, purely from the pop?

 

I guess does it really matter? Do I need to make that pop up somewhere else on the course

Edited October 25, 2021 by PixlPutterman

[jvincent]

5 minutes ago, PixlPutterman said:

Ill ask a slightly different question, and I may have missed it being answered in this thread already.....

 

Being they were so close to me in cap, the max was 3 pops for one guy and 2 for the other........where do they get them? The hardest holes? Easiest? Same difference?

 

 

They get them on the lowest stroke index holes, i.e. 1 to 3. 

[2bGood]

Yes always the lowest handicap holes (with might not actually be the hardest holes given the way stroke allocation is done)

[davep043]

19 minutes ago, PixlPutterman said:

Seems like us being so close in cap, the hardest holes, Im not that much more likely to birdie those holes either.....giving them a high probability of winning that hole when we both par, purely from the pop?

 

I guess does it really matter? Do I need to make that pop up somewhere else on the course

It matters in the short run (a single occasion) but in the long run I believe it works out the same percentage of wins and losses. More to your question, consider that you're 3 strokes better than a guy, that means you have an edge of just under 0.2 strokes on every hole.  On the three holes he gets a stroke, he ends up with about a 0.8 stroke advantage, while you have that 0.2 stroke advantage on the other 15 holes.  That means he have a reasonably good probability of winning those three holes, but you have a better than average chance of winning on each of the other 15 holes.  The math gets more complicated with fourball play, but even then the lower handicap team has an edge on any hole played at even.  Remember, this isn't an "even match", you ARE the better player, you DO have an edge on the holes you play even.

Edited October 25, 2021 by davep043

[PixlPutterman]

33 minutes ago, jvincent said:

 

They get them on the lowest stroke index holes, i.e. 1 to 3. 

Those holes are the ones where its most likely to have to greatest variance in score between high and low handicapper correct?

[PixlPutterman]

22 minutes ago, davep043 said:

It matters in the short run (a single occasion) but in the long run I believe it works out the same percentage of wins and losses. More to your question, consider that you're 3 strokes better than a guy, that means you have an edge of just under 0.2 strokes on every hole.  On the three holes he gets a stroke, he ends up with about a 0.8 stroke advantage, while you have that 0.2 stroke advantage on the other 15 holes.  That means he have a reasonably good probability of winning those three holes, but you have a better than average chance of winning on each of the other 15 holes.  The math gets more complicated with fourball play, but even then the lower handicap team has an edge on any hole played at even.  Remember, this isn't an "even match", you ARE the better player, you DO have an edge on the holes you play even.

 

That makes a bit more sense now

[2bGood]

33 minutes ago, PixlPutterman said:

Those holes are the ones where its most likely to have to greatest variance in score between high and low handicapper correct?

That is the starting point, but in addition the following recommendations are made by the Ruling Bodies in allocating stroke holes:

-odds on the front and evens on the back (incase it is a nine hole match the maximum number of stroked come in to play)

-A high, middle and low stroke hole every three holes (to account for hot and cold streaks in a match - similar strokes holes should not be bunched together)

-The 1st or 2nd stroke hole should not be in the final holes of the front or back 9. (So that they are meaningful before the match is potentially done)

 

All of the above are recommendations only that the committee have to take into account when the allocate the stroke holes. Despite it just being guidance it very rare for instance to see 1st stroke hole in the 9th hole for instance because of this guidance, not matter how much great the variance would be in that hole or to see the 1st and 3 stroke hole back to back. 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by 2bGood

[davep043]

46 minutes ago, PixlPutterman said:

Those holes are the ones where its most likely to have to greatest variance in score between high and low handicapper correct?

Chances are that this is the way most courses have their Stroke Allocations done in the US, as it was the recommendation made under the previous USGA Handicap System.  The new system suggests that the hole be ranked based in their "difficulty", as determined during the Course Rating process, with some other considerations as @2bGood mentioned in the previous post.  I wouldn't bet that too many courses have changed their stroke numbering in the short time since introduction of the WHS.  This is all in Appendix E to the Handicapping Rules, if you care to explore deeper.

[2bGood]

14 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Chances are that this is the way most courses have their Stroke Allocations done in the US, as it was the recommendation made under the previous USGA Handicap System.  The new system suggests that the hole be ranked based in their "difficulty", as determined during the Course Rating process, with some other considerations as @2bGood mentioned in the previous post.  I wouldn't bet that too many courses have changed their stroke numbering in the short time since introduction of the WHS.  This is all in Appendix E to the Handicapping Rules, if you care to explore deeper.

If I recall guidance about odds on the front and not having low stroke hole at the end of nines was in the old guidance too. (but my memory is not that good and it was not often I had to be involved in allocating stroke holes so I could be wrong)

 

The guidance around allocating strokes on holes in groups of three is new for sure though.

Edited October 25, 2021 by 2bGood