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Is this a fair money game?


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55 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

-A high, middle and low stroke hole every three holes (to account for hot and cold streaks in a match - similar strokes holes should not be bunched together)

-The 1st or 2nd stroke hole should not be in the final holes of the front or back 9. (So that they are meaningful before the match is potentially done)

 

Interesting - Our course's HC is setup where 18 is the 2nd HC hole (throwaway 1 shot) and the 1st HC hole is a medium length par 5 (another throwaway), so if you're giving someone 3 shots, you're basically done after hole #2 which is the 3rd HC hole. Essentially the 3 stroke delta is whittled down to 1ish...

 

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The funny thing with match play, especially playing bestball or scramble format is that strategy can radically change shot to shot. You do things that you wouldn't do in stroke play. Case in point..

Two years ago I had in best ball a straight up the hill birdie putt 6 ft from the hole. My partner was pretty much in jail right of the trees with no chance of going high and a pond to clear. In normal play, he would of chipped sideways and try to make par. Instead, he playes a low skimmer and holes it out for eagle.

 

As a note as it regards to the OP, the game is fair if you agreed to it. People to often confuse "fair" with being "even". Fair is when everyone is playing by the same rules. Even is when skill level is evened out.

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44 minutes ago, eht8266 said:

 

Interesting - Our course's HC is setup where 18 is the 2nd HC hole (throwaway 1 shot) and the 1st HC hole is a medium length par 5 (another throwaway), so if you're giving someone 3 shots, you're basically done after hole #2 which is the 3rd HC hole. Essentially the 3 stroke delta is whittled down to 1ish...

 

 

Not sure I understand.

 

I get about 18 being the #2 hole and sometimes (often ?) being a "throwaway". But if the match is "working out" as designed(?), the match won't yet be decided and not (always) be a throwaway.

 

That said, I also understand about it not being needed as the match could often(?) be decided before the 2nd handicap stroke is needed.

 

Afraid I don't understand your 1st hdcp hole being a throwaway though. It's on the front 9 and the match can't be decided by then. What means that ? :classic_blink:

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5 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Not sure I understand.

 

I get about 18 being the #2 hole and sometimes (often ?) being a "throwaway". But if the match is "working out" as designed(?), the match won't yet be decided and not (always) be a throwaway.

 

That said, I also understand about it not being needed as the match could often(?) be decided before the 2nd handicap stroke is needed.

 

Afraid I don't understand your 1st hdcp hole being a throwaway though. It's on the front 9 and the match can't be decided by then. What means that ? :classic_blink:

 

Just complaining about a longer par 5... shouldn't warrant the 1st HC designation. I guess I'm starting to veer off topic.

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7 minutes ago, Aaronwilson_95 said:

Unfortunately those are the 6 holes that truly stand out in terms of needing strokes in terms of difficulty & differential 

It is rare when you get deep into the numbers that tough holes differ too much. Having been through the process a few times, the committee does need to recognise just because the 18th hole is fractionally the toughest by 1/10 of stroke (or whatever) it is not enough reason to make the lowest stroke hole. Placement of the stroke holes is a bit art and a bit science after all and if you follow the current guidance it makes it mathematically impossible to have the 1 stroke on 9 or 2 stroke hole on 18.

 

 

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Just now, Aaronwilson_95 said:

18 is number 4 

11 is number 2 

9 is number 1

They are properly rated holes if you are playing the same tees IMO 2 and the other par 5 could flip flop on the front their ratings but it gets really dicey off you play different tees 

 

8 is a 480 par 4 from the back tees & 9 is 490 ish from the back box .

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1 minute ago, Aaronwilson_95 said:

18 is number 4 

11 is number 2 

9 is number 1

Yes. Just saying if the club was following the WHS guidance. 9 cannot be the 1 stroke hole no matter how difficult it is. Courses do choose to ignore the guidance. Some becomes they have made rational decision, other out of ignorance. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, 2bGood said:

Yes. Just saying if the club was following the WHS guidance. 9 cannot be the 1 stroke hole no matter how difficult it is. Courses do choose to ignore the guidance. Some becomes they have made rational decision, other out of ignorance. 

 

 

Curiously so I can show the committee , where can I find these guidances 

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1 hour ago, mark m said:

Thanks for this info. When looking at the calculation below, I don't see how the Scratch Value and Bogey Value are determined. Can someone explain? TIA

 

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1 hour ago, Aaronwilson_95 said:

Curiously so I can show the committee , where can I find these guidances 

The post above has it. A course has to have a handicap committee, so I would hope at-least one member is familiar with the handicap manual.😉

 

Like I said earlier the committee may be well aware of the guidance and made a rational and well reasoned decision not to follow it or they just have not gotten around to doing the work needed to follow the system as it does take a some time and attention.

 

 

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4 hours ago, MisterT said:

Thanks for this info. When looking at the calculation below, I don't see how the Scratch Value and Bogey Value are determined. Can someone explain? TIA

 

image.png.f9a70c0d989c09fd10c8faade99a5335.png

 

Your national association has the data and should be able to provide the WHS indices for each hole. 

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12 hours ago, MisterT said:

Thanks for this info. When looking at the calculation below, I don't see how the Scratch Value and Bogey Value are determined. Can someone explain? TIA

 

image.png.f9a70c0d989c09fd10c8faade99a5335.png

A rating team comes to the course with their clipboards. It involves lots of measurements, noting where obstacles are and calculations based of a typical scratch and bogie golfer. It is done for every set of tees and then that data is given to you committee. 

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12 hours ago, MisterT said:

Thanks for this info. When looking at the calculation below, I don't see how the Scratch Value and Bogey Value are determined. Can someone explain? TIA

These are the values that determine the Course Rating and Slope Rating.  As @2bGood says, a rating team goes to each course to determine the ratings for each tee.  The hole-by-hole data is maintained by your regional or state Association, and they can provide you with both the data and with recommendations on how the Stroke Index numbering should best be done to comply with the recommendations.  The Committee isn't required to follow the recommendations.

As has been noted previously, these recommendations changed with the introduction of the WHS in 2020.  I wouldn't be surprised at all of many clubs are using the Stroke Index numbering from before 2020, for any number of reasons.

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Thanks for the replies. Our course has #18 as the #2 handicap (a pre-WHS stroke index) with several holes that pose more obstacles earlier in the back nine. Now that I understand a bit more, I am going to inquire about a reassessment.

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14 minutes ago, MisterT said:

Thanks for the replies. Our course has #18 as the #2 handicap (a pre-WHS stroke index) with several holes that pose more obstacles earlier in the back nine. Now that I understand a bit more, I am going to inquire about a reassessment.

Under the previous USGA recommendations, they tried to identify the holes where there was the largest gap in scoring between better players and lesser players, by analyzing actual scores posted hole-by-hole.  The results can be surprising, a difficult hole may be difficult for everyone, while an "easier" hole might be a LOT easier for good players, and only a little easier for lesser players, resulting in a larger gap.  

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On 10/27/2021 at 12:00 PM, Aaronwilson_95 said:

They are properly rated holes if you are playing the same tees IMO 2 and the other par 5 could flip flop on the front their ratings but it gets really dicey off you play different tees 

 

8 is a 480 par 4 from the back tees & 9 is 490 ish from the back box .

Is it common to play a match from different tees? The only time I've ever experienced this is in mixed events.

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On 10/27/2021 at 7:38 AM, MisterT said:

Thanks for the replies. Our course has #18 as the #2 handicap (a pre-WHS stroke index) with several holes that pose more obstacles earlier in the back nine. Now that I understand a bit more, I am going to inquire about a reassessment.

In the Appendix E linked above, note the "triad" system that is recommended - where the no. 1 handicap index would be on the front nine in the middle three holes (4, 5 or 6).  The no. 2 handicap index would be on the back nine in the middle triad (holes 13, 14 or 15), etc.

This triad system is meant to distribute handicap strokes more equitably across the 18 holes.

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On 10/27/2021 at 10:56 AM, davep043 said:

Under the previous USGA recommendations, they tried to identify the holes where there was the largest gap in scoring between better players and lesser players, by analyzing actual scores posted hole-by-hole.  The results can be surprising, a difficult hole may be difficult for everyone, while an "easier" hole might be a LOT easier for good players, and only a little easier for lesser players, resulting in a larger gap.  

I wish more people would understand this! 
 

I hear it all the time at a course I play frequently. Short par 4, 320 or so from the member tees. A couple cross bunkers off the tee between 180 and 250 off the tee box and a small chute that you have to hit through off the box. It’s a mid single digit hole and all I ever hear is “that is not the 6th hardest hole on the course!”  Correct it’s not lol. But for good players it’s a driver wedge, plenty of players hit it up near the green off the tee. Of course, higher handicaps commonly hit it in a fairway bunker or don’t start it straight enough off the box and the tee ball goes about 50 yards total. 
 

Same course has a short par 5. 480 or so with a pond in front of a shallow green. You must carry the pond, there is no other way to reach the green. Big dogleg left with bunkers protecting the corner about 250 off the tee, and OB left, but tons of bailout room right. Good players hit drive and long iron or something similar over the pond/on the green. Lesser players are laying up in 2 and then hoping they don’t find the water on their third shot. 
 

Players complain about par 5s  RJ g stroke holes. Generally, it’s difficult for a higher handicap to hit 3 good shots. Heck it’s difficult for low caps frequently. They can just recover from a poor shot but the higher cap usually won’t. 

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3 hours ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

I wish more people would understand this! 
 

I hear it all the time at a course I play frequently. Short par 4, 320 or so from the member tees. A couple cross bunkers off the tee between 180 and 250 off the tee box and a small chute that you have to hit through off the box. It’s a mid single digit hole and all I ever hear is “that is not the 6th hardest hole on the course!”  Correct it’s not lol. But for good players it’s a driver wedge, plenty of players hit it up near the green off the tee. Of course, higher handicaps commonly hit it in a fairway bunker or don’t start it straight enough off the box and the tee ball goes about 50 yards total. 
 

Same course has a short par 5. 480 or so with a pond in front of a shallow green. You must carry the pond, there is no other way to reach the green. Big dogleg left with bunkers protecting the corner about 250 off the tee, and OB left, but tons of bailout room right. Good players hit drive and long iron or something similar over the pond/on the green. Lesser players are laying up in 2 and then hoping they don’t find the water on their third shot. 
 

Players complain about par 5s  RJ g stroke holes. Generally, it’s difficult for a higher handicap to hit 3 good shots. Heck it’s difficult for low caps frequently. They can just recover from a poor shot but the higher cap usually won’t. 

Note that davep043 said "under previous USGA recommendations".  They are not the current USGA recommendations, or did I misunderstand what you've said?

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