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How do you figure out strokes between buddies during a fun / competitive / betting round?


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Need some advice on getting and giving strokes within your foursome.  First of all, we all have established handicaps as we belong to the same golf club.  The range of indexes can be from mid single to near 20.  General rule of thumb for us, or, more like the default start of a negotiation: for stroke play (1vs1 or team best ball), we use 100% differential of course handicaps, for match play (1vs1 or team best ball) we use 80% differential of course handicaps.  Even this can be quite controversial depending on if you're getting strokes or giving.  Either way, how do you guys work it out with your buddies (not strangers, we all know each other well, and are good friends)?  Also, in terms of disagreement, is there any etiquette on who gets the final call?  Is it the player who's giving strokes who gets the final say?  

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Is there a reason you just don't use full handicaps as the RB's recommend for 1 v 1 match play and stroke play and 90% for four ball? (I assume you have less than 30 players in your group).

 

Here is the chart that makes the recommendations:

 

Handicap Allowances

 

As for your question about solving disagreements - simple answer don't bet if you can't agree. In our group we typically play full caps, but as a bunch of us typically range around the same cap, guys will suggest to play straight up from time to time. Then they have the option of saying yes or no to the offer or make a counter offer. If they can't agree they don't play a match (thought that rarely happens)

 

 

Edited by 2bGood
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We use 80% for match play because the full handicap differential doesn't account for surplus of strokes beyond the one stroke that's needed to win the whole.  So the 80% is to account for that.  Not scientific, but just a rule of thumb.  Of course, if can't agree, we don't bet.  Just seeing if there's an etiquette or general practice on this.  

DRIVER: CALLAWAY MAVRIK SUBZERO TRIPLE DIAMOND 9.0

3-WOOD: TITLEIST TSI3 15.0

HYBRID: TITLEIST TS2 3H 19.0

IRONS: MIURA CB-1008 4-P

WEDGES: MIURA TOUR SERIES 52; MIURA K-GRIND 56; CALLAWAY JAWS FULL TOE 60

PUTTER: TAYLOR SPIDER X

 

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46 minutes ago, tikidavyi said:

We use 80% for match play because the full handicap differential doesn't account for surplus of strokes beyond the one stroke that's needed to win the whole.  So the 80% is to account for that.  Not scientific, but just a rule of thumb.  Of course, if can't agree, we don't bet.  Just seeing if there's an etiquette or general practice on this.  

That chart I posted would be etiquette and general practice. It does have science behind it. Is it prefect? No. But is based on running numbers on tens of thousands of rounds to come up with the fairest system the could be implemented with the least complexity. 

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1 hour ago, tikidavyi said:

We use 80% for match play because the full handicap differential doesn't account for surplus of strokes beyond the one stroke that's needed to win the whole.  So the 80% is to account for that.  Not scientific, but just a rule of thumb.  Of course, if can't agree, we don't bet.  Just seeing if there's an etiquette or general practice on this.  

What do you mean by accounting for the surplus of strokes beyond the stroke need to win a hole?   

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Yep, thanks for that.  I didn't know there was such an elaborate system already.  

DRIVER: CALLAWAY MAVRIK SUBZERO TRIPLE DIAMOND 9.0

3-WOOD: TITLEIST TSI3 15.0

HYBRID: TITLEIST TS2 3H 19.0

IRONS: MIURA CB-1008 4-P

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In MP, for a hole, if you win by one stroke or five strokes, it counts as just one hole won.  But those four extra strokes count towards stroke play.  Generally, a lot of mid-teen players I play with, can get a lot of pars and bogeys, but accumulate a lot of blow up holes, which drive up their handicap... That's why there's a suggestion to take a discount in MP handicap differential vs. straight up stroke play.  

DRIVER: CALLAWAY MAVRIK SUBZERO TRIPLE DIAMOND 9.0

3-WOOD: TITLEIST TSI3 15.0

HYBRID: TITLEIST TS2 3H 19.0

IRONS: MIURA CB-1008 4-P

WEDGES: MIURA TOUR SERIES 52; MIURA K-GRIND 56; CALLAWAY JAWS FULL TOE 60

PUTTER: TAYLOR SPIDER X

 

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2 hours ago, tikidavyi said:

In MP, for a hole, if you win by one stroke or five strokes, it counts as just one hole won.  But those four extra strokes count towards stroke play.  Generally, a lot of mid-teen players I play with, can get a lot of pars and bogeys, but accumulate a lot of blow up holes, which drive up their handicap... That's why there's a suggestion to take a discount in MP handicap differential vs. straight up stroke play.  


The blow up holes shouldn’t impact their handicaps much if they enter their scores hole by hole and/or follow Net double bogey max for handicaps. 
 

Every club I’ve been at just use the stated handicap, even for four ball. Keeps it simple. Never had to do with the negotiation dance you talk about. If someone is identified as a sandbagger, they just aren’t invited to play in any games. 

Edited by klebs01
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I'm with @klebs01, we just use our current handicaps.  I know that 90%% is recommended for fourball match play, but we use 100% because we're not smart enough to do the calculations.  And yes, I know we could use the app to do it, so we're just too lazy.  

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6 hours ago, tikidavyi said:

In MP, for a hole, if you win by one stroke or five strokes, it counts as just one hole won.  But those four extra strokes count towards stroke play.  Generally, a lot of mid-teen players I play with, can get a lot of pars and bogeys, but accumulate a lot of blow up holes, which drive up their handicap... That's why there's a suggestion to take a discount in MP handicap differential vs. straight up stroke play.  

You’re getting very confused. The number of strokes you get in a  singles or fourball match has nothing to do with the score you put in for handicapping.  In singles you get or give the difference between your full course handicap and your opponent's.  In fourball, the lowest hadicapper gets no strokes and the higher handicappers get the difference between 90% of their course handicaps and 90% of the lowest.   Scores for handicapping are completely separate from the match, being   based on gross scores  adjusted to a maximum score of a net double bogey at any hole.  Net double bogeys are calculated using your full course handicap which is how you would work out when to pick up after the outcome of the hole has been decided. 
 

Just keep your match and your score for handicap completely separate in your thinking and most certainly don't alter the match play handicaps because of submitting scores for handicapping.  There's no connection.

 

 

Edited by Colin L
Heavily edited when I realised the OP was talking about fourball not singles.
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4 hours ago, tikidavyi said:

In MP, for a hole, if you win by one stroke or five strokes, it counts as just one hole won.  But those four extra strokes count towards stroke play.  Generally, a lot of mid-teen players I play with, can get a lot of pars and bogeys, but accumulate a lot of blow up holes, which drive up their handicap... That's why there's a suggestion to take a discount in MP handicap differential vs. straight up stroke play.  

The handicap system already accounts for this as players have a maximum score on any hole and only 8 out 20 scores count, as a result blow up holes either have zero effect on a persons handicap or they are not very good and blow up holes are are not actually 'blow ups' but a normal and constant part of their game and their (high) handicap should reflect it.

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Colin L said:

You’re getting very confused. The number of strokes you get in a  singles or fourball match has nothing to do with the score you put in for handicapping.  In singles you get or give the difference between your full course handicap and your opponent's.  In fourball, the lowest hadicapper gets no strokes and the higher handicappers get the difference between 90% of their course handicaps and 90% of the lowest.   Scores for handicapping are completely separate from the match, being   based on gross scores  adjusted to a maximum score of a net double bogey at any hole.  Net double bogeys are calculated using your full course handicap which is how you would work out when to pick up after the outcome of the hole has been decided. 
 

Just keep your match and your score for handicap completely separate in your thinking and most certainly don't alter the match play handicaps because of submitting scores for handicapping.  There's no connection.

 

 

 

Well, there's certainly a "connection" between what you shoot in prior rounds of golf, gross/net scores per hole, which affects your handicap and how it's applied towards your current and future match, foursome, singles, or stroke.  I get what you're saying in terms of how handicap differential is applied technically in a match, and only net double bogey and below is accounted for.  My point was more on, could there be a difference on how the handicap differential is applied towards stroke play vs. match play, and how other groups apply it during their normal weekend rounds.  

DRIVER: CALLAWAY MAVRIK SUBZERO TRIPLE DIAMOND 9.0

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IRONS: MIURA CB-1008 4-P

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2 hours ago, Augster said:

What on earth is happening in this section today?

 

Here is a guide. It works 100%. Been using it for years. 
 

1v1 match or medal: 100%, subtract out the low guy. 
 

2v2 fourball match: 90% CH, subtract out the low guy. 
 

Stableford: 100% PH

 

2v2 high low: 100% PH subtract out the low guy. 

Keep it simple, I like it 🙂

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HYBRID: TITLEIST TS2 3H 19.0

IRONS: MIURA CB-1008 4-P

WEDGES: MIURA TOUR SERIES 52; MIURA K-GRIND 56; CALLAWAY JAWS FULL TOE 60

PUTTER: TAYLOR SPIDER X

 

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4 hours ago, tikidavyi said:

Keep it simple, I like it 🙂

You like the system of  handicap allowances Augster describes as being simple.  That couldn't be the same system  referred to and explained by 2bgood, which is elaborate, could it?  🤔 😀

 

The effect of percentage handicap allowances, by the way, is to reduce the range of difference between the lower and the high handicapper and thus mitigate the imbalance between them which would favour the higher handicapper(s) if the allowance were 100%.   No such mitigation is needed in singles matchplay because  handicaps are designed to put players on an even basis in that format.  If your course handicap is 18  and you are up against a scratch player in a match, you are evenly matched with the stroke a hole you are going to get.

Edited by Colin L
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There is a way to do this which eliminates all argument and keeps any one player from ever getting very far ahead.  If the low handicapper wins then he or she gives one more stroke in the next match and if the high handicapper wins then he or she gets one  less stroke in the next match.  I have done this with a couple of friends and it works quite well as most matches are close and it is fun to see how many strokes one can end up giving or how few one can end up getting.  This system pretty much eliminates any sandbagging so if you golf with a sandbagger who wins all the time it will stop that very quickly.  

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On 10/26/2021 at 12:44 AM, Nels55 said:

There is a way to do this which eliminates all argument and keeps any one player from ever getting very far ahead.  If the low handicapper wins then he or she gives one more stroke in the next match and if the high handicapper wins then he or she gets one  less stroke in the next match.  I have done this with a couple of friends and it works quite well as most matches are close and it is fun to see how many strokes one can end up giving or how few one can end up getting.  This system pretty much eliminates any sandbagging so if you golf with a sandbagger who wins all the time it will stop that very quickly.  

Just forget handicaps and play a points quota   game and keep a running book on it.  No way somebody can cry fowl with that.  It’s like a mini handicap inside of the greater handicap which includes other rounds. Nearly impostor cheat at IT . You have to donate by losing on purpose badly for 3/4 rounds before your ever gain enough to win easily.  So it’s always an overall loss to try to do that.  As soon as you win your quota is bumped way back up.  

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Just now, toc said:

Yikes. Fun, betting, and competitive are three entirely exclusive terms for me.


I can understand fun being exclusive, but betting and competitive are exclusive to one another? You aren’t competitive when you’re betting?

 

That being said, I love having some bets when I’m playing and definitely consider it fun. 

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5 minutes ago, b.helts said:


I can understand fun being exclusive, but betting and competitive are exclusive to one another? You aren’t competitive when you’re betting?

 

That being said, I love having some bets when I’m playing and definitely consider it fun. 

I don't like betting.  I hate thinking about money when I'm playing golf.

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Often play with two foursomes of varying genders and skill levels. Different tees in play and we use quota points based on course/tee handicaps and blind draw the teams.

It's a $5.00 game so pretty easy on the budget, but keeps everyone involved and adds good entertainment value to the round.

 

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1 hour ago, Redjeep83 said:

Just play straight up. How it should be 

This is easy to say, as long as you're one of the better players in a group.  For the lesser players, on the other hand, most will quickly get tired of paying every week.  To me its the most fun when the money evens out over a long season, I don't need to subsidize my income by taking money from my friends on the golf course.

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33 minutes ago, davep043 said:

This is easy to say, as long as you're one of the better players in a group.  For the lesser players, on the other hand, most will quickly get tired of paying every week.  To me its the most fun when the money evens out over a long season, I don't need to subsidize my income by taking money from my friends on the golf course.

 

Hopefully they will try to become a better player after losing money or pick and choose who they bet for money. Just never liked the whole handicap thing when competing, the person you give strokes to never actually won if they did.

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6 minutes ago, Redjeep83 said:

 

Hopefully they will try to become a better player after losing money or pick and choose who they bet for money. Just never liked the whole handicap thing when competing, the person you give strokes to never actually won if they did.

One of the best ways, maybe THE best way, to get better is to play with players that are better than you. 
 

If that means donating every time, few players would continue to do so. 
 

So, in my mind, being able to have a ‘fair’ bet results in more players getting better. 

Edited by b.helts
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52 minutes ago, b.helts said:

One of the best ways, maybe THE best way, to get better is to play with players that are better than you. 
 

If that means donating every time, few players would continue to do so. 
 

So, in my mind, being able to have a ‘fair’ bet results in more players getting better. 

 

not when you are giving strokes will they get better. Gives them a pass on playing better. If they want to get better by playing with you then don't play for money then. Just my views obviously.

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Might depend on the nature of the people you paly with.

Most of the people I play with are over 50- many are over 60 and  a few including myself are over 70.

This is a group that isn't going out to the range several times a week. Most of them have minimal practice time, but enjoy the game.

All of them are too smart to play in a situation where they lose money every time we play.

Agree with  davep043 that the money should even out over time.

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29 minutes ago, Itsjustagame said:

Might depend on the nature of the people you paly with.

Most of the people I play with are over 50- many are over 60 and  a few including myself are over 70.

This is a group that isn't going out to the range several times a week. Most of them have minimal practice time, but enjoy the game.

All of them are too smart to play in a situation where they lose money every time we play.

Agree with  davep043 that the money should even out over time.

 

Not sure why a player in their 60's+ would be playing against a really good player for money all the time. I would have a hard time handing over $50 to a guy I beat by 5 strokes, which is why I don't do it. 

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