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How do you figure out strokes between buddies during a fun / competitive / betting round?


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27 minutes ago, Redjeep83 said:

Not sure why a player in their 60's+ would be playing against a really good player for money all the time.

Maybe they're actually friends, they enjoy each other's company, and they enjoy competition where each of them has a reasonably even chance of winning on a given day.  In my normal group we have handicaps from +2 to 17 or so, ages from 25 to 75.  We're always playing for money, not tons of money, but a manageable stakes for all.

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1 hour ago, Redjeep83 said:

 

Not sure why a player in their 60's+ would be playing against a really good player for money all the time. I would have a hard time handing over $50 to a guy I beat by 5 strokes, which is why I don't do it. 

Your approach to playing golf with your friends is just different than mine.

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3 hours ago, Redjeep83 said:

not when you are giving strokes will they get better.


That’s wrong. How does playing with someone better than you not make you better if you’re getting strokes?

 

Playing with better golfers makes you a better golfer by learning shots and habits and tendencies of the better golfers. I’d argue that playing a handicapped match is actually more beneficial than playing straight up because otherwise the better player doesn’t even have to grind. 
 

Silly claim. Just my view, obviously. 🙄

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3 hours ago, Redjeep83 said:

 

Not sure why a player in their 60's+ would be playing against a really good player for money all the time. I would have a hard time handing over $50 to a guy I beat by 5 strokes, which is why I don't do it. 

I am not sure what you are getting at here, can you maybe expand a bit on this idea.

 

I find myself lucky that I get to play with a few guys in their 80's from time to time. Guys that used to be great sticks in their day and can still shoot their age. It gives me hope for what I might be able to do 30-40 years from now.

 

These guys are still competitive so we play for a few bucks and I have to give them a dozen or so strokes. Sometime they win, sometimes I do. If I play well I feel good about how I did against par. Might not mean I beat the other guy, but I don't begrudge losing to them. 

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On 10/19/2021 at 9:21 PM, tikidavyi said:

Also, in terms of disagreement, is there any etiquette on who gets the final call?  Is it the player who's giving strokes who gets the final say?  

I used to play in a group of 10-25 guys at my last club, and most of the time, I was the low index.  The group either played using our standard course handi caps or everyone played off my index, almost same difference. 

 

Key here these were casual rounds, where some didn't exactly adhere to all the rules.  That went on for many years too.  I don't recall anyone getting their panties in a wad, which necessitated someone having the final say.  I played to the rules yet wasn't bothered knowing others maybe played the game different from the rules.  I suspect that was because first and foremost, we were all friends.

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34 minutes ago, b.helts said:


That’s wrong. How does playing with someone better than you not make you better if you’re getting strokes?

 

Playing with better golfers makes you a better golfer by learning shots and habits and tendencies of the better golfers. I’d argue that playing a handicapped match is actually more beneficial than playing straight up because otherwise the better player doesn’t even have to grind. 
 

Silly claim. Just my view, obviously. 🙄


I’ve played with worse golfers all the time and they don’t get better just by playing with me unless I’m actually trying to help them. If we are playing for money they especially won’t learn from me. ive also played with better players and I don’t learn just by playing with them, too much going on while playing. 
 

 

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8 hours ago, Redjeep83 said:

Just play straight up. How it should be 

"Should be"?   Lower caps frequently say that.....until an even lower cap shows up.

 

Handicaps make it fun for a much larger number of golfers to compete and have fun.  

 

Some other sports like tennis group people by skill level.  You could do that in golf but it would limit the size of your group.

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17 minutes ago, b.helts said:


 

OK. I honestly don’t think we’re in the same book. I’m not talking about the better player teaching. What I’m talking about is learning through observing. If that isn’t happening when you play with better players then perhaps it should?


doesnt really happen. Maybe to complete new players but you don’t get to single digits playing with people better than you or all you 10-15 caps would be better by now 

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10 minutes ago, denkea said:

 How are you figuring the points quota.  Curious.  

It’s 0 points for a double bogey , 1 for bogey and 2 for par and so on up …. I believe 4 points is the max you can raise or lower on one round.   So if my quota is say 35.  And I play badly. The lowest my next quota can be is 31.  Or if I play well and break out of the 4 point range and say make 40 points. It raises the next quota to 39 points.  The initial quota is a guess based on handicap usually. Then adjusts from there only by play in the points game.  Say you’re a 4 handicap that roughly translates to a quota of 30-32 points.  
 

keep in mind I’m explaining best I can. I don’t run this game nor do I score it. I just play and the points are what the points are.  

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16 hours ago, b.helts said:


 

OK. I honestly don’t think we’re in the same book. I’m not talking about the better player teaching. What I’m talking about is learning through observing. If that isn’t happening when you play with better players then perhaps it should?

I somewhat agree with this point. I think it is most dramatically seen with juniors and young players where they push each other to get better.

 

Golf being a very mental game I also think a higher handicap (with the physical ability to get better) playing all the time with lower handicap will typically improve faster than playing with similar caps. The high capper will pick up more about how golf could/should be played and have some different expectations and belief about the shots they can make. You see this is many sports, that feats thought unattainable become common place once one person breaks the barrier and others are forced to believe it is achievable. 

 

To be clear though, I do not think this is consistent phenomenon, but I do believe if a serous study was done you could measure the positive effect of playing with golfers better than you.

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15 hours ago, b.helts said:


Ok. Agree to disagree on that one. 
 

have a good one, redjeep. 

I agree. I begged my way into a coven ( apt term ) of plus handicaps -teaching  pros and mini tour guys …. Paid paid paid. Took a lot of crap.  Kept my mouth mostly shut.  Watched and listened.  7-8 years later I’m a barely plus handicap who hasn’t yet figured it out yet.  But I realize that nobody has. Really.  
 

flip the coin around.  To this day.  I can get grouped with the wrong set of players who aren’t focused shall we say , and I can play down to what I’m seeing.  Not always.  But it’s a tough mental day.  
 

I absolutely believe that talent needs a good visual and it needs to watch a good example. We’re all teachers and students.  Whether we realize it or not.  I’d willingly lose end pay out weekly to a group of  top players just to glean information.  Bring them on.  I’ll figure out how to afford it.  Knowing that I’d eventually level up.  

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12 minutes ago, davep043 said:

This rings home to me.  At my home club, we used to have a group of guys who thought they were the best around, always played scratch, had (in a few cases) vanity handicaps.  Anyone was welcome to play with them, as long as it was all played straight up.  They HATED strokes, thought the only way to play golf was gross.  Then a teenager surpassed their skill level, not by a stroke or two, but by 4 or 5 strokes, all legit.  Then they HATED losing all the time, every time.  They didn't end up adopting handicapped play, they simply didn't let the youngster play with them anymore.  

I have seen this a few times - we play straight up - then a really good + shows up and they abandon that idea pretty fast. 

 

straight up works well with similar handicaps just fine, but when you get guys that 4 or 5 strokes higher or lower it not going to work for long.

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32 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I generally try to avoid generalizing (I know, I meant to write that), but I think you're probably the exception in this, rather than the rule.  Again, its just my guess, but I think most players would prefer to have a reasonable chance of winning.  

 

This rings home to me.  At my home club, we used to have a group of guys who thought they were the best around, always played scratch, had (in a few cases) vanity handicaps.  Anyone was welcome to play with them, as long as it was all played straight up.  They HATED strokes, thought the only way to play golf was gross.  Then a teenager surpassed their skill level, not by a stroke or two, but by 4 or 5 strokes, all legit.  Then they HATED losing all the time, every time.  They didn't end up adopting handicapped play, they simply didn't let the youngster play with them anymore.  

Depends on your goals I guess. Mine was/is never to win the Saturday morning dogfight.   I can do that anytime I’m putting decent.   And  have several times making none.  I knew it then although I couldn’t do it then. But I wanted to play against the guys who were winning everything.  To see how.  
 

I guess I got that way from my basketball days. You can’t handicap that.  You show up and learn how to not get the ball shoved down your throat. Respect is always paid for one way or the other.  
 

now I’m saying that agreeing with you.  It’s not for everyone. It’s assuming natural ability with a high ceiling.  But at the same time. It can be true for all if you take into account context.  An 18 cap can likely play with a group of 15s and learn something.  But that’s me guessing.  I don’t actually know that part to be true as i haven’t experienced it. 

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14 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Depends on your goals I guess. Mine was/is never to win the Saturday morning dogfight.   I can do that anytime I’m putting decent.   And  have several times making none.  I knew it then although I couldn’t do it then. But I wanted to play against the guys who were winning everything.  To see how.  
 

I guess I got that way from my basketball days. You can’t handicap that.  You show up and learn how to not get the ball shoved down your throat. Respect is always paid for one way or the other.  
 

now I’m saying that agreeing with you.  It’s not for everyone. It’s assuming natural ability with a high ceiling.  But at the same time. It can be true for all if you take into account context.  An 18 cap can likely play with a group of 15s and learn something.  But that’s me guessing.  I don’t actually know that part to be true as i haven’t experienced it. 

 

 

Are you saying the guys who are "winning everything" aren't playing in the Saturday morning dogfight?

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23 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Depends on your goals I guess. Mine was/is never to win the Saturday morning dogfight.   I can do that anytime I’m putting decent.   And  have several times making none.  I knew it then although I couldn’t do it then. But I wanted to play against the guys who were winning everything.  To see how.  
 

I guess I got that way from my basketball days. You can’t handicap that.  You show up and learn how to not get the ball shoved down your throat. Respect is always paid for one way or the other.  
 

now I’m saying that agreeing with you.  It’s not for everyone. It’s assuming natural ability with a high ceiling.  But at the same time. It can be true for all if you take into account context.  An 18 cap can likely play with a group of 15s and learn something.  But that’s me guessing.  I don’t actually know that part to be true as i haven’t experienced it. 

If I play any other golfer regardless of his or her handicap, I'm looking for an enjoyable game and the kind of match that gets settled one way or the other late in the round.  Finishing with  the last deciding putt on the 18th is ideal.  If I want to learn I go get a lesson and then head for the practice range.

 

Playing evens with a low handicapper would teach me nothing although it might remind me of  the value of a handicapping system.  Getting mashed by a superior player in any sport just isn't fun and all the more pointless when our sport is so well suited to handicapping.

 

 

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32 minutes ago, b.helts said:

 

 

Are you saying the guys who are "winning everything" aren't playing in the Saturday morning dogfight?

No. They are still.  Most  still are some of the mini tour guys come snd go as seasons change. We get several  back in the winter as they leave the northern tours.   Some of the college guys have left.  But every year a new one or two pops up.  It’s like whackamole with those kids. Lol.  But the core of the guys that I played with are still around. 
 

when I say winning everything I mean qualifying for state snd national level events , contenders in county level events and at my home course expected to win anything that’s gross. 
 

i can play with them locally and win some lose some.  I just am behind in experience still.  I’m learning still how to play up when I travel. So what I meant was this. 
 

I always knew that I could shoot what they were shooting to win locally.  I began the game thinking This.  Call it stupidity or just lucky arrogance ?  I don’t know.  I never thought otherwise.  I would show up at 7 am as an unknown and ask to play with them.  10-20 guys in this click every Saturday.  I actually got left out due to numbers many times.  Being the 5th so to speak. I’d practice a bit and go back home on those days.  Mad but determined.    I kept coming back until I eventually was one of the “ gauranteed “ players. My intention then and always was to compete.  So yes now I do beat some of them , some I actually make mad , and they quit during rounds regularly.  Lol.  And a couple I’m good buds with now.  And we’ve had some very very good matches in the last two years. Best one of my life was this year.   So no I didn’t get there because competition  left. I just worked up to their level. But I’m now trying to catch them on bigger stages.  I’ll get there too.  

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2 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

No. They are still.  Most  still are some of the mini tour guys come snd go as seasons change. We get several  back in the winter as they leave the northern tours.   Some of the college guys have left.  But every year a new one or two pops up.  It’s like whackamole with those kids. Lol.  But the core of the guys that I played with are still around. 
 

when I say winning everything I mean qualifying for state snd national level events , contenders in county level events and at my home course expected to win anything that’s gross. 
 

i can play with them locally and win some lose some.  I just am behind in experience still.  I’m learning still how to play up when I travel. So what I meant was this. 
 

I always knew that I could shoot what they were shooting to win locally.  I began the game thinking This.  Call it stupidity or just lucky arrogance ?  I don’t know.  I never thought otherwise.  I would show up at 7 am as an unknown and ask to play with them.  10-20 guys in this click every Saturday.  I actually got left out due to numbers many times.  Being the 5th so to speak. I’d practice a bit and go back home on those days.  Mad but determined.    I kept coming back until I eventually was one of the “ gauranteed “ players. My intention then and always was to compete.  So yes now I do beat some of them , some I actually make mad , and they quit during rounds regularly.  Lol.  And a couple I’m good buds with now.  And we’ve had some very very good matches in the last two years. Best one of my life was this year.   So no I didn’t get there because competition  left. I just worked up to their level. But I’m now trying to catch them on bigger stages.  I’ll get there too.  

 

OK. I guess I'm just not getting it. You say your goal is not to win the dogfight, are you talking long term goal? I mean, when you play you play to win, yeah?

 

You're saying your ultimate goal, or your long term goal, isn't to get to the point where you win the dogfight, but to win on a bigger stage. Is that accurate?

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37 minutes ago, Colin L said:

If I play any other golfer regardless of his or her handicap, I'm looking for an enjoyable game and the kind of match that gets settled one way or the other late in the round.  Finishing with  the last deciding putt on the 18th is ideal.  If I want to learn I go get a lesson and then head for the practice range.

 

Playing evens with a low handicapper would teach me nothing although it might remind me of  the value of a handicapping system.  Getting mashed by a superior player in any sport just isn't fun and all the more pointless when our sport is so well suited to handicapping.

 

 

I respect that view.  I do.  I just don’t share it. But that’s not to say that either of us are wrong.  For us.  
 

I view competition  as war. It’s just how I tick. I watch history documentaries for fun.  Maybe go swimming or play basketball with my ever harder to beat kid.  But competition is only good if It’s hard.   I don’t enjoy handicapped events at all. Snd I don’t usually play up to my potential in them.  It’s arrogant to say. But i usually have too much compassion for the high handicap.  I find myself routing for them.  I just don’t enjoy beating them.  And my mindset doesn’t get into the whole “ strokes “ thing.  I’m just being honest.  I simply don’t like it.  And rarely participate anymore.  

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2 minutes ago, b.helts said:

 

OK. I guess I'm just not getting it. You say your goal is not to win the dogfight, are you talking long term goal? I mean, when you play you play to win, yeah?

 

You're saying your ultimate goal, or your long term goal, isn't to get to the point where you win the dogfight, but to win on a bigger stage. Is that accurate?

Yep. I don’t see the weekly comps or money games as a goal.  It’s a given if I show up with some game.  I can or will win a lot of the times. 
 

im saying as a beginner I did not say to myself “ boy I wish I could win that dogfight “. Or “ if I work hard I’ll win the net flight championship in the club tournament this year “.  I just didn’t care about it.  It was too low of a bar.  I still feel like if that’s a goal you’re setting an artificial ceiling up.  I want to play against anybody.  Not for a living mind you. I’m not a world traveler.  But I don’t fear anybody.  And yet at the same time I know that I’ll lose more often than not.  But I don’t think you get to the top of your ability setting goals small.  
 

I’m a bit crazy. Sure.  But so far ( fingers crossed ). My handicap and more importantly , scoring average have dropped each season.  I haven’t hit the wall.  Yet.  
 

im rambling I know. I’m just trying to express what I meant.  

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10 minutes ago, b.helts said:

 

OK. I guess I'm just not getting it. You say your goal is not to win the dogfight, are you talking long term goal? I mean, when you play you play to win, yeah?

 

You're saying your ultimate goal, or your long term goal, isn't to get to the point where you win the dogfight, but to win on a bigger stage. Is that accurate?

Forgot one thought.  I do play to win but I think of it as winning against me.  I’m the only one I have to beat.  So I play every round against myself. Trying to control me.  
 

for instance.  I had a breakthrough two seasons ago.  Led my club championship by 5 shots on the 13th hole .  Physically got tired. Leaked a few and had a kid make 3 birdies coming in , and staring on 18 tee i led by 1.  I hit a so so tee ball that got a horrible bounce off a twig into a hazard.  I make bogey he makes birdie and I lose.  By 1.  
 

now hear my point.  I walked to the clubhouse beaming.  A huge group of guys greeted me and tried to console me.  They were sad/mad. I was not.  I ended up consoling them.  True story.  I explained that I had just crossed a hill that I hadn’t been able to.  And went toe to toe with a kid headed to a D1 scholarship.  I started as an adult.  I’m not supposed to be here.  I cannot recall a happier day in my adult life. A goal was met. And it was just me against me.  I lost.  But I won if that makes any sense ?  I raised my ceiling that day.  And I’ve raised it since.  
 

To the point.  I do not believe I could have ever progressed taking lessons on a range or playing net games etc.  and I’m still learning the same way.  Just have to find more competition.  

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8 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Yep. I don’t see the weekly comps or money games as a goal.  It’s a given if I show up with some game.  I can or will win a lot of the times. 
 

im saying as a beginner I did not say to myself “ boy I wish I could win that dogfight “. Or “ if I work hard I’ll win the net flight championship in the club tournament this year “.  I just didn’t care about it.  It was too low of a bar.  I still feel like if that’s a goal you’re setting an artificial ceiling up.  I want to play against anybody.  Not for a living mind you. I’m not a world traveler.  But I don’t fear anybody.  And yet at the same time I know that I’ll lose more often than not.  But I don’t think you get to the top of your ability setting goals small.  
 

I’m a bit crazy. Sure.  But so far ( fingers crossed ). My handicap and more importantly , scoring average have dropped each season.  I haven’t hit the wall.  Yet.  
 

im rambling I know. I’m just trying to express what I meant.  

 

 

OK. The only hitch in the giddy up is you contradict yourself a bit. There's a disconnect.

 

You say you feel sorry for and/or root for the higher handicap. But you say you'll "play against anybody" and "competition as war", etc. The disconnect is that you can absolutely have a handicapped match where you have to play your butt off to stay in the match and win. It doesn't make sense to me that "competition is war" but you find yourself rooting for your competition in certain circumstances.

 

Does not compute.

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Interesting thread. Our group constantly has this discussion, but we play simultaneous money games. Net Score, Closest to pin, skins.

 

Depending on the size of the group, I'm a contributor or collector. In large groups, it's tough for the low handicap to win in the closet to the pin or skins game, as any one of the other higher caps can squeak out a good closet to the pin or a lucky hole. I've had eagles pushed by a high handicapper when he gets a par. With a large group this seems to be the norm. Doesn't happen so much in a smaller groups as odds drop. I've also seen a legit (I play with him all the time) 18 handicap shoot a net 65 or better. Hard to beat when you are giving up 16-17 strokes.

 

When our betting group gets larger, some of the low HC's tend to drop out of the betting pool. But no one really cares. We play together because we like each other, not because we want to take each others money.... 

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23 minutes ago, b.helts said:

 

 

OK. The only hitch in the giddy up is you contradict yourself a bit. There's a disconnect.

 

You say you feel sorry for and/or root for the higher handicap. But you say you'll "play against anybody" and "competition as war", etc. The disconnect is that you can absolutely have a handicapped match where you have to play your butt off to stay in the match and win. It doesn't make sense to me that "competition is war" but you find yourself rooting for your competition in certain circumstances.

 

Does not compute.

I understand why you’d say that. But it computes to me. 
 

I just have an impossible time seeing the handicap match as worthwhile.  I’m not learning anything.  I’m actually trying to Unsee putts , or shots etc. I find it to be an impossible mental grind sometimes to stay interested in a match where in outrunning so many shots while witnessing sooo many bad shots.  That’s what doesn’t compute to me. 
 

competition  is war. I don’t see net games as competition.  No more than I would have seen giving a guy a 50m head start in my track days as competition.  I guess what I’m saying is that my instincts contradict for the two opposite situations.  One is fight  or flight.  The other is the sheepdog instinct.  Protect those who are weaker.  
 

im just being honest mind you.  I get how my view is not popular nor will it be. I just don’t participate anymore.  So there’s no conflict.   
 

 

and I’ll add. I suspect that there is a lesson to be learned in training yourself to beat high handicaps in net comps too. I’m open to that idea. But I’ll be danged  if I’ve seen one on my own.  

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srixon zx 19* elements 9F5T 

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TM p7mc 5-pw Mmt125tx 

Mizuno T22 raw 52-56-60 s400

LAB Mezz Max armlock 

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27 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

and I’ll add. I suspect that there is a lesson to be learned in training yourself to beat high handicaps in net comps too. I’m open to that idea. But I’ll be danged  if I’ve seen one on my own.  

 

 

Explain to me, please, the difference between playing well and beating someone straight up vs. playing well and beating someone in a fair, handicapped match.

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