Arg's Travel Log

[mci711]

25 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

Last time I played there we had an 18 hdcp in our group. He must have lost a dozen balls. Impressive that you made it around without losing a ball.

 

18 losing only a dozen balls there is actually pretty damn good there

Edited February 13, 2023 by mci711

[DoughBack18]

7 hours ago, Argonne69 said:

Lost Key today. I can certainly see why it's referred to as Lost Balls. There is just no room for error here, both off the tee and approaching the green. 

Never understood courses like this. I think its something like 45% of golfers don’t break 100. And even a scratch golfer is going to hit an errant shot or 2. To have no room to miss seems like it  does nothing but make rounds take longer and make your customers frustrated. Not saying they all need to be wide as a driving range, but some margin for error seems prudent.

[@_the_crook]

really enjoying your travel log , Arg

many thanks for all your postings.

keeping good thoughts for you.

 

 

[Argonne69]

10 hours ago, DoughBack18 said:

Never understood courses like this. I think its something like 45% of golfers don’t break 100. And even a scratch golfer is going to hit an errant shot or 2. To have no room to miss seems like it  does nothing but make rounds take longer and make your customers frustrated. Not saying they all need to be wide as a driving range, but some margin for error seems prudent.

 

I guess the only saving grace is that the jungle is so dense, and the ponds so murky, that there's little chance of finding a ball. Since it's all red staked, drive up, drop a ball, and play on. 

 

[Bonneville85308]

On 2/11/2023 at 10:16 AM, Argonne69 said:

Sunkist Country Club, Biloxi, MS 

 

I played Sunkist on my trip to Biloxi circa December 2017 I think it was. My main memory was that the course was empty and I flew around in 2 hours, went into the shop and asked if I could play another nine. Guy said sure, $10, go for it. Ended up doing that 2 more times (he didn't charge me for the final nine) to play 45 holes since I had already blown my gambling budget for the trip and had time to kill. 🤑 Conditions were pretty much how they looked in your photos.

 

I also played Fallen Oak and Grand Bear. Grand Bear was my favorite of those two by far, which is especially odd since I am generally not a fan of Nicklaus courses. 

 

Too bad that Great Southern is permanently closed now. I played that one and it was a nice cheap round on a historic course.

 

 

[Argonne69]

Sigh. Another beautiful, sunny day spoiled by a mandatory cart policy. I simply don't, and will never, get it. 

 

Gulf Shores GC today. Decent parkland layout with a little bit of everything. A few too many homes lining the course, but it didn't feel pinched. Good bunkering, and water in play on a number of holes. Not much elevation change tee to green, but the green complexes were generally raised. Not much left/right movement on the holes, so it does start to get monotonous. 

 

Generous off the tee. Almost all of the holes had an adjacent hole, so misses in the right direction weren't bad. The other side was OB, but there was a little room to work with. Trees were fairly sparse. Approaches were tougher. Well protected greens with water in front of several of them. Greens were mixed in size with decent contouring. Up and downs could be easy, or tough depending on the pin location. Quite a few tucked pins with opportunities to short side yourself. Putting was tricky. Greens had enough speed and slope that being above the hole could be dicey. 

 

The five par 3s were mixed. The three on the front were solid, with two forced carries and one long one with a steep green. The pair on the back were meh. 5s weren't bad. One was reachable, but no risk/reward. The 7th was long and tough with very good bunkering. The two short 4s were benign. 

 

Conditions were quite good. Fairways were a little thin in spots. Rough was short. Bunkers were sandy, but could probably use another half inch. Greens were a bit grainy, but the speed was good at 10. 

 

Played the Blue tees at 6365 yds on the par 71 layout (70.5/120). I didn't realize it was a par 71 layout until I hit the 2nd long par 4. Lol. 430+ par 4s are more than enough. Bit of a struggle off the tee early, but I got it together after a few holes. Two birdies, four bogies and and a double. Highlight of the day was a birdie on the 433 yd par 4 9th. Solid drive, and a wickedly good 9 wood to within 12' of the back pin. Followed that up two holes later with a 30' birdie putt. My playing partner from Traverse City was great company. Plenty to chat about as we zoomed around the course. 

 

I'll give GS 5 cows. Decent enough, but it doesn't wow. The 5s and short 4s need excitement. $73 for a weekday round is overpriced. Worth a visit, but certainly not a destination course. 

 

[Argonne69]

Gulf Shores Golf Club, Gulf Shores, AL 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Full photo set: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ats29ba80jg9hj2/AADJCL5Leu145dh0E0sY6wE9a?dl=0

 

[Double Mocha Man]

1 hour ago, Argonne69 said:

Sigh. Another beautiful, sunny day spoiled by a mandatory cart policy. I simply don't, and will never, get it. 

 

I think it's all about revenue... and a misplaced belief that carts make the round faster.

[mci711]

9 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

I think it's all about revenue... and a misplaced belief that carts make the round faster.

 

They do make rounds faster. I will die on this hill. As someone who mostly walks, I guarantee I can finish a round quicker riding than walking. All things considered equal, if you hit the exact shot for 18 holes but switch out walking and cart the cart will finish quicker. The problem is people not playing ready golf. Drive to a ball, wait, partner hits, drive to their ball etc. Walking isn't faster than riding, walkers just tend to have better etiquette most likely. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by mci711

[Argonne69]

Just now, mci711 said:

 

They do make rounds faster. I will die on this hill. As someone who mostly walks, I guarantee I can finish a round quicker riding than walking. All things considered equal, if you hit the exact shot for 18 holes but switch out walking and cart the cart will finish quicker. The problem is people not playing ready golf. Drive to a ball, wait, partner hits, drive to their ball etc. Walking isn't faster than riding, walkers just tend to have better etiquette most likely. 

 

If each player had their own cart, then yes, it should be generally quicker. Two players sharing a cart who know to properly use it? It's a coin toss. Two idiots who sit in the cart while the other hits? The walker is going to play faster. Most of the rounds where I'm walking and paired with riders in a single cart have me waiting on most greens.

 

I played with another single today, and we each had out own carts. Nobody in front of us, and we finished in 2:40. We spent some time looking for my playing partner's ball on a few holes. Most of my solo walking rounds recently have been in the 2:40 to 3:00 range. I'm certainly not holding up a course that has a 3:30 to 4:00 pace.

 

I don't see how it's revenue based. Many of the courses I've walked charge a flat rate regardless if you take a cart. They have my money either way.

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Argonne69

[mci711]

14 minutes ago, Argonne69 said:

 

If each player had their own cart, then yes, it should be generally quicker. Two players sharing a cart who know to properly use it? It's a coin toss. Two idiots who sit in the cart while the other hits? The walker is going to play faster. Most of the rounds where I'm walking and paired with riders in a single cart have me waiting on most greens.

 

I played with another single today, and we each had out own carts. Nobody in front of us, and we finished in 2:40. We spent some time looking for my playing partner's ball on a few holes. Most of my solo walking rounds recently have been in the 2:40 to 3:00 range. I'm certainly not holding up a course that has a 3:30 to 4:00 pace.

 

I don't see how it's revenue based. Many of the courses I've walked charge a flat rate regardless if you take a cart. They have my money either way.

 

 

I walk most of my rounds. I am not disagreeing with you. My point is, stupid/selfish/unaware of golf etiquette people slow rounds down, not carts. I'd rather be behind a slow group in carts than that exact slow group walking. Also, not defending cart only courses, that is stupid. I was just countering someone elses comment. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by mci711

[Double Mocha Man]

2 hours ago, mci711 said:

I will die on this hill.

 

I will come to your funeral.

 

In theory power carts should be faster than walkers.  Doesn't work out that way, unless there is only one rider in the cart.  I played last week with our Assistant Pro who was in a cart while I was walking, pushing a pushcart.  Now, for Phil it wasn't CPO... he knows all the dry spots and he was in a rush to make it to his next lesson.  So I had to do a bit of running (which I love to do anyway) to keep up.  But that was the only cart in the last 2 years that I didn't outpace.  

[Double Mocha Man]

2 hours ago, mci711 said:

I'd rather be behind a slow group in carts than that exact slow group walking.

 

Oh the horrors...

[Double Mocha Man]

2 hours ago, Argonne69 said:

I don't see how it's revenue based.

 

I might be missing something here... but if they charge you extra for a cart that is more revenue.

 

Do you ever tell the starter that, walking, you play in 2:40 to 3:00?  And you're almost always the first off so it should be a no-brainer for them to let you walk.  But then I'm ascribing brains to starters...  

[Argonne69]

Just now, Double Mocha Man said:

 

I might be missing something here... but if they charge you extra for a cart that is more revenue.

 

Do you ever tell the starter that, walking, you play in 2:40 to 3:00?  And you're almost always the first off so it should be a no-brainer for them to let you walk.  But then I'm ascribing brains to starters...  

 

Most of the courses that I've walked charged a flat rate regardless if you walked or rode. The courses that charge a separate cart fee are in the minority. The ones that charge a flat fee got my money, and saved wear and tear on their cart.

 

Yes, I tell anyone who'll listen that I can get around in less than 3 hours. Pro shop. Starter. Marshall. Most of the time it falls on deaf ears. Once in a while I find someone with an ounce of common sense and they let me walk.

 

I can't even begin to count the number of times I've made the turn, and gotten a comment from a staff member about how "I'm really moving". Yeah, no kidding. It shouldn't take 2+ hours for a single to walk 9 holes.

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Argonne69

[Argonne69]

Just now, Double Mocha Man said:

 

Oh the horrors...

 

Lol. I've played over 300 rounds on this trip, and don't recall a slow round behind walkers. Waiting on riding groups to acknowledge me and let me play through? Plenty.

 

[tw422]

3 hours ago, mci711 said:

 

They do make rounds faster. I will die on this hill. As someone who mostly walks, I guarantee I can finish a round quicker riding than walking. All things considered equal, if you hit the exact shot for 18 holes but switch out walking and cart the cart will finish quicker. The problem is people not playing ready golf. Drive to a ball, wait, partner hits, drive to their ball etc. Walking isn't faster than riding, walkers just tend to have better etiquette most likely. 

Respectfully disagree - the minute you hit a slow group any advantage you have becomes a disadvantage because you are now moving more quickly into a slower group.  The real problem is there is no way on a public course to "tell" people to hurry up (I paid money to play and who are you to tell me what to do).  The public course ranger job is as worthless as t**** on a nun but is also the hardest most thankless job in the world (of course after teachers, police and fireman).  

Edited February 14, 2023 by tw422

[tw422]

4 hours ago, Argonne69 said:

Gulf Shores Golf Club, Gulf Shores, AL 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Full photo set: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ats29ba80jg9hj2/AADJCL5Leu145dh0E0sY6wE9a?dl=0

 

Course reminds me of the Carolinas - like a True Blue or TPC Myrtle Beach...

[tw422]

5 minutes ago, Argonne69 said:

 

Lol. I've played over 300 rounds on this trip, and don't recall a slow round behind walkers. Waiting on riding groups to acknowledge me and let me play through? Plenty.

 

Arg - you literally and technically have the data to prove it....statistically significant data set too.

[Argonne69]

Booked Golf at Kelly Plantation and Emerald Bay near Destin for next Monday and Tuesday. Amazing how prices jump when one crosses into Florida. Each is over $125 a round, and of course no walking allowed. 

 

I played Eglin GC Falcon last year. I hope to get on the Eagle course on Wednesday. 

 

[Double Mocha Man]

7 minutes ago, tw422 said:

The real problem is there is no way on a public course to "tell" people to hurry up (I paid money to play and who are you to tell me what to do). 

 

I treated an old high school and college golf buddy of mine to a round of golf at Pebble Beach... paid for everything... caddies, too.  Larry is one of the slowest golfers in the universe, otherwise a great guy.  On the 11th hole the assistant pro came out to tell us to pick up the pace.  On the 13th hole another assistant pro came out to speed us up.  We were at least two holes behind.  On the 15th hole the head pro came out to encourage us to play faster... to which Larry exclaimed, "Hey, I paid for this round, I'll play at my own pace."

[mci711]

7 minutes ago, tw422 said:

Arg - you literally and technically have the data to prove it....statistically significant data set too.

 

If Arg played 2 rounds the exact same, one with the cart one without, no cart restrictions obviously. He would player quicker than walking. Most new courses aren't laid out for walking, still walkable. But any walk between holes is removed with a cart. 

 

It is impossible to do, but if all things are equal, other than the cart and walking, cart is going to be quicker. If the course is perfectly set up to walk it may be closer. 

 

Sorry Arg, I'll be done now. Back to your scheduled beer and golf 😂

[mci711]

Just now, Double Mocha Man said:

 

I treated an old high school and college golf buddy of mine to a round of golf at Pebble Beach... paid for everything... caddies, too.  Larry is one of the slowest golfers in the universe, otherwise a great guy.  On the 11th hole the assistant pro came out to tell us to pick up the pace.  On the 13th hole another assistant pro came out to speed us up.  We were at least two holes behind.  On the 15th hole the head pro came out to encourage us to play faster... to which Larry exclaimed, "Hey, I paid for this round, I'll play at my own pace."

 

Would have been awesome if they kicked him off right then. 

[gmayo11]

@Argonne69 Have you played Windswept Dunes in Freeport on your trip?  Fun course near Destin/Santa Rosa Beach/Panama City Beach area.

[Double Mocha Man]

2 minutes ago, mci711 said:

 

Would have been awesome if they kicked him off right then. 

 

A few years later he did that at a local course, when he was up visiting me from LA, with the guys behind us hitting into Larry (I was already well off the green) on a par 3.  The next week I asked the head pro if he would kindly ban Larry from the course...

 

Don't make me tell any more Larry stories... they are legend.

[Argonne69]

4 minutes ago, mci711 said:

 

If Arg played 2 rounds the exact same, one with the cart one without, no cart restrictions obviously. He would player quicker than walking. Most new courses aren't laid out for walking, still walkable. But any walk between holes is removed with a cart. 

 

It is impossible to do, but if all things are equal, other than the cart and walking, cart is going to be quicker. If the course is perfectly set up to walk it may be closer. 

 

Sorry Arg, I'll be done now. Back to your scheduled beer and golf 😂

 

Lol. Unless it's cart path only, I'll never say that walking is faster than a single rider. I can zip around in a cart on an empty course in roughly 2 hours. Walking is 2:30 to 3 hours. 

 

The thing that gets me frosted is that most courses have a 4 to 4:30 pace of play. I could do that walking backwards. The overriding rule should be that players keep pace. Doesn't matter if they're walking or riding. If I'm the first one out on an empty course, four hours is simply not going to happen. If a faster player(s) catches me then I'm going to let them play through. No big deal. It's actually happened a couple of times in the past 15 months. 

 

Again, I don't care if players ride. The fundamental rule should be keeping pace. If I was allowed to walk, and either didn't keep pace (never going to happen), or was caught by a faster group, I'm going to follow the basic pace of play etiquette, let the faster group play through. 

 

[Argonne69]

8 minutes ago, gmayo11 said:

@Argonne69 Have you played Windswept Dunes in Freeport on your trip?  Fun course near Destin/Santa Rosa Beach/Panama City Beach area.

 

Yes, I played it in late 2017 on my first trip to the area. Also played Burnt Pine, Raven, Regatta Bay, and the two courses at Bay Point. 

 

Very nice course, but not quite what I was expecting. I thought it would have a much more "wild" look. 

 

[tw422]

2 minutes ago, Argonne69 said:

 

Lol. Unless it's cart path only, I'll never say that walking is faster than a single rider. I can zip around in a cart on an empty course in roughly 2 hours. Walking is 2:30 to 3 hours. 

 

The thing that gets me frosted is that most courses have a 4 to 4:30 pace of play. I could do that walking backwards. The overriding rule should be that players keep pace. Doesn't matter if they're walking or riding. If I'm the first one out on an empty course, four hours is simply not going to happen. If a faster player(s) catches me then I'm going to let them play through. No big deal. It's actually happened a couple of times in the past 15 months. 

 

Again, I don't care if players ride. The fundamental rule should be keeping pace. If I was allowed to walk, and either didn't keep pace (never going to happen), or was caught by a faster group, I'm going to follow the basic pace of play etiquette, let the faster group play through. 

 

I agree with everyone's points here and Arg you bring up the most salient point - everyone keeping pace should be the focus.  Of course if I go out first in a cart I'll play much faster than walking.  But put me on a course mid morning weekend (public/private) where there are slower groups and any advantage you have with a cart goes away.   I'm a cart guy, I love carts and I don't mind people walking but I think 1) you should have the choice (not be forced to use one) and 2) everyone should agree to a pace of play contract.  If you're not willing to agree to playing in under 4.5 hrs then don't play.

[Double Mocha Man]

4 minutes ago, Argonne69 said:

 

Lol. Unless it's cart path only, I'll never say that walking is faster than a single rider. I can zip around in a cart on an empty course in roughly 2 hours. Walking is 2:30 to 3 hours. 

 

The thing that gets me frosted is that most courses have a 4 to 4:30 pace of play. I could do that walking backwards. The overriding rule should be that players keep pace. Doesn't matter if they're walking or riding. If I'm the first one out on an empty course, four hours is simply not going to happen. If a faster player(s) catches me then I'm going to let them play through. No big deal. It's actually happened a couple of times in the past 15 months. 

 

Again, I don't care if players ride. The fundamental rule should be keeping pace. If I was allowed to walk, and either didn't keep pace (never going to happen), or was caught by a faster group, I'm going to follow the basic pace of play etiquette, let the faster group play through. 

 

 

I'm with you.  I'm one of the faster golfers on this planet.  As mentioned earlier, I often run behind my push cart.  Great exercise.  And running is in my genes.

 

But I have also learned to exercise some level of patience if I'm behind slow golfers.  Though they don't deserve it.  😊

[Alex H]

3 hours ago, mci711 said:

 

They do make rounds faster. I will die on this hill. As someone who mostly walks, I guarantee I can finish a round quicker riding than walking. All things considered equal, if you hit the exact shot for 18 holes but switch out walking and cart the cart will finish quicker. The problem is people not playing ready golf. Drive to a ball, wait, partner hits, drive to their ball etc. Walking isn't faster than riding, walkers just tend to have better etiquette most likely. 

Single rider in the cart on a day with absolutely no cart path only. Maybe.... but i'm also young enough and fit enough i can move when i really want to and on a lot of courses being able to walk straight from green to tee box is faster than from green to cart (usually off to the side) then straight to the tee box. The club i'm a member at my 3 quickest 18's ever are all under 2hr45min. Days i wasn't rushing but was playing good golf and not fussing at all. I walked all three of those days and don't think i've broken 2hr50min in a cart a single time.