To post or not to post???

[vandyfan]

One of the muni courses we play, our groups always do a scorecard length in the fairway because there are some straight dirt patches in the fairway. I am sure this would anger a number of the golfwrx'ers but frankly, after some of the TIO relief, absurd "plugged" rulings, etc. I see week in and week out on the PGA tour...I feel like we are playing about as close to the rules as they are. 

[StudentGolfer4]

4 hours ago, Mustard_Tiger said:

If posting these scores is "acceptable" then the handicap rules are a joke. And they are--which is why I never risk my money based on handicapped competitions.

 

 

 

Care to elaborate? To you, what makes these rules a joke? 
 

If someone gives you a 1 ft putt should your score be ineligible? During covid most places didn’t have rakes out and bunkers were lift clean and place or free drop. Should scores have not been posted during those months because of the pandemic changes? Say it rains hard before a us open or am qualifier and LCP is in place. Do you think that makes scores ineligible to post?  Just trying to see your side of things here. 
 

If people are posting scores this way wouldn’t that mean their handicap is lower than it should be and would benefit you? 

[Halebopp]

15 hours ago, Augster said:

So for the OP, post net par for the first hole. Then choose to use LCP in the fairway or not and rake and place in the bunker or not. Since these are both valid local rules a committee can enact, whether you use them or not, you still have a valid score to post. 

 

Are you suggesting that there's an authorised local rule allowing players to rake a bunker and then place a ball on the raked area? I hope not because there's no such thing.

[Augster]

9 hours ago, Halebopp said:

 

Are you suggesting that there's an authorised local rule allowing players to rake a bunker and then place a ball on the raked area? I hope not because there's no such thing.

It may not be “authorized”, but there are a few courses I have seen this at. And in 2020, because of Covid and no rakes, nearly every course was playing bunkers that way. 
 

Not every course local rule is “legal” as per tournament golf. Like a drop area beyond the forced carry pond. 
 

The same group could just call all bunkers GUR and allow free drops out. With Lift, rake, and place, at least the player still has to pay to get out of the bunker. 

[2bGood]

34 minutes ago, Augster said:

Like a drop area beyond the forced carry pond.  

Strictly speaking this is legal, just not recommended as the Rules of Golf do not specify the manner in which a drop zone must be configured, but lays out guidelines that should be followed. 

 

In the real world a can literally not think of one drop zone I have encountered that actual follows the guidelines which is kind of sad, but makes sense as I either play club golf and none of the clubs I play at need drop zones or I am playing 'destination' type courses that want to make life easy/fast for the golfers playing their courses.

[2bGood]

49 minutes ago, Augster said:

It may not be “authorized”, but there are a few courses I have seen this at. And in 2020, because of Covid and no rakes, nearly every course was playing bunkers that way. 
 

The same group could just call all bunkers GUR and allow free drops out. With Lift, rake, and place, at least the player still has to pay to get out of the bunker. 

 

This is always been a tough on for me that GUR is an option but placing in a raked area is not. I can the logic in allowing raking before hitting, but I think RB's did not go there because of rule like this would be inconsistent with he principle of other rules.

[Imp]

On 11/5/2021 at 12:18 AM, bekgolf said:

It's too late now but did you ever think of playing by the rules and still playing with them?  IE one ball off the first tee and playing the ball down?  It would be akin to holeing out even when someone gives you a generous putt.

The biggest issue with the clown rules down there is the two balls off the tee, right? (Well covered by Auguster)

As we know, the rules allow one to play a provisional at any time because you never know if your ball *might* (key word) be lost or not. When you go out, you see two balls, "whew, not lost" and pick up your provisional every time. That would be enough for me to keep a clear conscience while playing in their tourneys to post your score and keep it accurate. If someone asks why you didn't play the "better ball"? "I didn't like the lie" or somesuch. We've seen pros like Phil and JT hit provisionals when the ball was in play... rarely, but I think it's an allowed loophole and waiting for someone like bryson to challenge it, because you're the only one that can make the determination of if it's "lost" from the tee or not. 

Bunkers? Optional. You don't have to. Just play it as it lies. 

Everyone else playing there? Clowns. I get the whole competition aspect, but if they're posting, that's on them and should be dissuaded.. (is there a USGA tip-line?) 😉  On the other hand, all those things means they should have lower scores/handicaps than if they played by the rules, so, not really "bagging" but lower than they should be, they're losing strokes from their caps and then they play in a real tourney, they're going to be screwed. (or, they should be keeping a separate league handicap away from USGA)

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Imp

[Augster]

I received more guidance from the USGA/WHS. 
 

I wrote, “As a follow up, is there anything in the WHS literature that says a player should take net par for holes played outside the ROG? I can’t find it. I know it was in the old USGA handicapping system, I just can’t find it in the WHS rules. “

 

The USGA response was that a hole not played under the ROG is treated, for handicap purposes, as a “hole not played” in 3.2. 
 

While it’s not explicitly laid out in the WHS, Rules of Handicapping, this would be an acceptable procedure for posting. 
 

It’s only 1 hole. Presumably, the OP and his group, play the other 17 as per the ROG with the noted local rules. 
 

As imp laid out, the more local rules you use, the lower your index will be. If you only play with guys that use the same local rules, your indexes will be comparable. 
 

But you will have a marginally lower index compared to the ROTW. 

[kygolfer1.6]

Thanks guys!  
 

This thread went way deeper than I had initially thought it would and I honestly appreciate everyone’s input even if I don’t necessarily agree with everyone.  But hey, that’s what discussions are for right?

 

Ultimately and I will conclude with this; my point about all of this is:  A) Some of you are right and I can play by the ROG as I know them but then I’m playing in a gambling game where as I will have a slight disadvantage versus the field.  When they aren’t hitting from a “dirt patch” or a “fried egg” lie in a bunker, obviously the chances of them making a better score on a hole is better than me and in a skins game (which is one of the bets) I could’ve tied or won the whole.  B)  I can just play by their rules and say screw it and post the scores knowing that in some instances it may have altered my score by several shots therefore artificially lowering my index.  Now the argument will be it won’t lower it by much however my rebuttal would be if it lowered my score by 5 shots one round and what should have been a 75 turns into a 70, well now the 70 makes a 78 drop out of my top scores used for calculations.  Now the one score wouldn’t have a huge effect but if that happened 5-6 times…now it could make a difference by several shots on a index.  If that was the case, that could be a huge difference in having a 3.9 or a .9 and being in the championship flight in a invitational or 1st flight in the same event. Or C) Not play.

 

Now with me, I ALWAYS declare for championship flight in every medal play event because I want to play against the best but I am gathering this information for others that may be in the same situation and they may not want to play in the better flight.  I mean who wants to be the worst player in a flight???  Only my dumb Word not allowed usually because most want to be at the top of their flight not the bottom (handicaps are used for flighting purposes only not net scores, FYI).  
 

So I’m sure some die hard WRX’ers will disagree and say every score should be posted but I’ll just be honest and say I think every score should be posted where you play by the rules of golf.  When I say they play it up in the fairway, they aren’t playing LCP, they are rolling it around with their club until they find a really good lie, they are playing bunkers rake and place and make sure your lie is perfect not rake from a washed out area and drop or play it as it lies.  They aren’t playing bunker shots from the side slopes but every ball get basically tees up in the center on a nice flat or slight uphill shot.  I mean I’m 100% legit when it comes to playing by the rules…but this seems like cheating and definitely has an impact on the score.  I don’t care that they do it, I mean it makes the game much easier especially for the higher handicaps BUT that posted score is NOT accurate and I’m sorry but if anyone thinks it is, I’ll just have to disagree.

 

Have a Happy Thanksgiving to all of you!

[Augster]

There is no way LCP in the fairway and LCP in a bunker will result in 5 shots unless you’re the worst bunker player of all time. 
 

When you choose LCP in the fairway vs. playing it as it lies, the difference in the end result is so small it can’t be quantified. The higher your index, the LESS it matters. Give a +5 LCP from 100 yards vs. hitting out of a divot and he’ll certainly hit it significantly closer. Do the same with a 10 cap? Almost no difference in proximity to the hole. From neither lie is a higher cap going to hit it consistently closer to save even a half shot. 
 

My friend Dave is a +1. At his course they always play LCP in the fairway and lift rake and place in the bunkers. He’s a +1. This year, he decided to play the ball down everywhere. Horrible fairway lies, atrocious bunker lies. He’s still a +1. 
 

We are our index. In order to lower our indexes we need to hit it closer or make more putts. Both are REALLY hard to improve.
 

There is no significant advantage between a 15-footer for birdie and a 30-footer for birdie. It’s almost always a par. 

[2bGood]

16 hours ago, kygolfer1.6 said:

Thanks guys!  
 

This thread went way deeper than I had initially thought it would and I honestly appreciate everyone’s input even if I don’t necessarily agree with everyone.  But hey, that’s what discussions are for right?

 

Ultimately and I will conclude with this; my point about all of this is:  A) Some of you are right and I can play by the ROG as I know them but then I’m playing in a gambling game where as I will have a slight disadvantage versus the field.  When they aren’t hitting from a “dirt patch” or a “fried egg” lie in a bunker, obviously the chances of them making a better score on a hole is better than me and in a skins game (which is one of the bets) I could’ve tied or won the whole.  B)  I can just play by their rules and say screw it and post the scores knowing that in some instances it may have altered my score by several shots therefore artificially lowering my index.  Now the argument will be it won’t lower it by much however my rebuttal would be if it lowered my score by 5 shots one round and what should have been a 75 turns into a 70, well now the 70 makes a 78 drop out of my top scores used for calculations.  Now the one score wouldn’t have a huge effect but if that happened 5-6 times…now it could make a difference by several shots on a index.  If that was the case, that could be a huge difference in having a 3.9 or a .9 and being in the championship flight in a invitational or 1st flight in the same event. Or C) Not play.

 

Now with me, I ALWAYS declare for championship flight in every medal play event because I want to play against the best but I am gathering this information for others that may be in the same situation and they may not want to play in the better flight.  I mean who wants to be the worst player in a flight???  Only my dumb Word not allowed usually because most want to be at the top of their flight not the bottom (handicaps are used for flighting purposes only not net scores, FYI).  
 

So I’m sure some die hard WRX’ers will disagree and say every score should be posted but I’ll just be honest and say I think every score should be posted where you play by the rules of golf.  When I say they play it up in the fairway, they aren’t playing LCP, they are rolling it around with their club until they find a really good lie, they are playing bunkers rake and place and make sure your lie is perfect not rake from a washed out area and drop or play it as it lies.  They aren’t playing bunker shots from the side slopes but every ball get basically tees up in the center on a nice flat or slight uphill shot.  I mean I’m 100% legit when it comes to playing by the rules…but this seems like cheating and definitely has an impact on the score.  I don’t care that they do it, I mean it makes the game much easier especially for the higher handicaps BUT that posted score is NOT accurate and I’m sorry but if anyone thinks it is, I’ll just have to disagree.

 

Have a Happy Thanksgiving to all of you!

Just a fun observation - you won't follow the ROG because you want to follow the ROG.😀

 

Unfortunately  we don't get to pick and choose the rules we like or think are important and still say we are following the rules.

 

Saying all that I think your intentions are good, but you left option D  out- play the game by the rules other are using and then post the scores following the rules of handicapping.

[Colin L]

On 11/8/2021 at 8:24 PM, Augster said:

... choose to use LCP in the fairway or not and rake and place in the bunker or not. Since these are both valid local rules a committee can enact, whether you use them or not, you still have a valid score to post. ......

 

Really?  I must have missed the Model Local Rule which allows raking and placing in a bunker.  Can you reference it for me please?

[Colin L]

I've just caught up with this thread and skimmed through it.  Another fascinating but horrifying peek into  the world of USA "golf".    I'm hoping though that there is nonetheless a considerable majority of golfers in the golfing millions over there who play golf as it is supposed to be played and maintain their handicap according to the WHS rules.  

 

Am I to be reassured, or am I kidding myself? 🤔

[DaveLeeNC]

This is an interesting problem. If I assume that the 'rules' under which your buddies play actually tends to make a stroke or two difference vs. what would happen to YOU at THIS COURSE, then when you arrive with your 'proper play index', from the perspective of your buddies you are a 'virtual sandbagger' (playing your best by their rules you will beat your index more than is typical). You should clean up on that basis. 

 

I don't know the personal dynamics of the group, but based on what I have heard, I would be playing by the RoG and posting the scores (and doing some extra raking in the bunkers 😀 ). But maybe that will be awkward in this particular case - I don't know. 

 

 For me if folks starting giving me all my 4 and 5 footers my index would probably drop a couple of strokes even if the handicap rules say 'add one additional stroke' in that case. I play regularly with a couple of guys who don't keep an index and are pretty loose with the rules and they have learned not to kick back my 3 foot putt when I play with them. And what is hilarious is that when winter rules (LCP) are in effect, they turn their nose up when I pick up my ball and place it rather than scoot it around with a club  saying 'Dave, do you need a tee for that one'. I just smile. 

 

dave

[DaveLeeNC]

6 hours ago, Colin L said:

I've just caught up with this thread and skimmed through it.  Another fascinating but horrifying peek into  the world of USA "golf".    I'm hoping though that there is nonetheless a considerable majority of golfers in the golfing millions over there who play golf as it is supposed to be played and maintain their handicap according to the WHS rules.  

 

Am I to be reassured, or am I kidding myself? 🤔

 

Colin, much of the crazy golf that you read about is outside the handicap system here in the US. It is mostly the norm with folks who play muni/etc courses. Just for grins I tried to look up about a half dozen guys that I played golf with back in my home of Missouri on the Ghin system when I was in high school (late 60's).  A couple of them I know still live in Missouri and maybe all of them do. But I was zero for six finding an index for them in Ghin. 

 

OTOH, the integrity of indexes inside the system is (across the board) not what happens in systems with tighter controls (like competition scores only).  I would like to be part of such a system, but I would have no scores to post 😞

 

dave

[Augster]

On 11/25/2021 at 1:13 AM, Colin L said:

I've just caught up with this thread and skimmed through it.  Another fascinating but horrifying peek into  the world of USA "golf".    I'm hoping though that there is nonetheless a considerable majority of golfers in the golfing millions over there who play golf as it is supposed to be played and maintain their handicap according to the WHS rules.  

 

Am I to be reassured, or am I kidding myself? 🤔

You’re kidding yourself. 🙂

 

If I had to guess, in my club, 99%+ of posted rounds is “hit and giggle” golf being posted. Conceded putts, picked up putts. NDB scores. E5. Rolling it in the fairway. Rolling it out of any bad lie or divot or tree root. 
 

In other words, almost all caps are deflated a little bit. 
 

So, if you have the chance to take your index vs. a US WHS index, plan to bet a little bigger that day. 🙂

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

So, if you have the chance to take your index vs. a US WHS index, plan to bet a little bigger that day. 🙂

I'm not normally a betting sort of person, but that sounds like a plan. 😎

[mark m]

Every once in awhile, in the bar after play, a club member will ask me a rules question. And I usually start with, “why are you asking me/us? I am not rules expert.”

 

A: “Because you guys actually play by the rules!” (Which is true.)

 

To believe you can have good large field handicapped tournaments under these circumstances is a little nuts. Yes, as Augster says, we have a large cohort of vanity caps, but also a contingent of baggers who know how to manipulate the system.  And then you have guys chime in with “just have tiny prizes” advice. Either way, it’s hard to build participation.

[5 O'Clock Charlie]

On 11/5/2021 at 5:31 PM, rogolf said:

Them cutting you out of the net competition is completely wrong.

 

I've never had much success in Net competitions as a low single digit. This wouldn't bother me, but I get why you might be put off.

[nsxguy]

43 minutes ago, mark m said:

Every once in awhile, in the bar after play, a club member will ask me a rules question. And I usually start with, “why are you asking me/us? I am not rules expert.”

 

A: “Because you guys actually play by the rules!” (Which is true.)

 

To believe you can have good large field handicapped tournaments under these circumstances is a little nuts. Yes, as Augster says, we have a large cohort of vanity caps, but also a contingent of baggers who know how to manipulate the system.  And then you have guys chime in with “just have tiny prizes” advice. Either way, it’s hard to build participation.

 

It seems to me the lower the handicap the more likely the player is playing by the Rules.

 

The large contingent of vanity handicappers should comfort any legitimate low handicapper playing in a net event against a large contingent of high handicappers. It gives the lower guys more of a chance.

 

And while I have no doubt there ARE sandbaggers, the oft repeated "sandbagger" label attached to anyone who shoots a really low net round is simply shouted out by someone who has NO IDEA how handicaps work and how much "easier" it is for a higher cap to shoot a low net than a low single digit capper.

 

http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html

 

Anyone remember when they first started ? And how much easier it was to shave 3 strokes off your 25 handicap ? 

 

Or shave 3 strokes off your 12 handicap ? 

 

How about shaving 3 strokes off your 3 handicap ?

 

Same thing applies to shooting an exceptional net score. MUCH easier for a higher handicapper to have a "hot" round; i.e. it's NOT sandbagging.

 

(See below)

 

Getting from a 26 to a 23.

vs.

Getting from a 3 to scratch.

 

 

[bortass]

On 11/8/2021 at 3:24 PM, Augster said:

I just got a clarification from the USGA about the use of a “breakfast ball” and the WHS. The person I was contacted by says for the first hole, post net par. 
 

[snip]

 

This is kinda funny in a way. Here's my logic, albeit flawed perhaps. In theory, we'd shoot net par overall. So if I get 2 strokes on #1 (par 4), I'll average around a 6 over the course of many rounds ( assume I'm not in the middle of major improvement nor regression of my game).  I use a breakfast ball which means I'll be playing the better of two tee shots. This in turn means I should be under 6 over the long haul for the opening hole but the rules say post a 6 at all times.

 

Does it matter in the long run, probably not, and I can understand why this was the answer. It just made me chuckle that the correct procedure is to post a score that is likely worse than what I would have shot with said breakfast ball, thereby inflating my index by some minimal amount. 

 

 

[Augster]

21 minutes ago, bortass said:

 

This is kinda funny in a way. Here's my logic, albeit flawed perhaps. In theory, we'd shoot net par overall. So if I get 2 strokes on #1 (par 4), I'll average around a 6 over the course of many rounds ( assume I'm not in the middle of major improvement nor regression of my game).  I use a breakfast ball which means I'll be playing the better of two tee shots. This in turn means I should be under 6 over the long haul for the opening hole but the rules say post a 6 at all times.

 

Does it matter in the long run, probably not, and I can understand why this was the answer. It just made me chuckle that the correct procedure is to post a score that is likely worse than what I would have shot with said breakfast ball, thereby inflating my index by some minimal amount. 

 

 

“Post a 6 at all times”? Is it a par 5 where you get a shot?

 

Post net par for the hole you did not play by the rules. 
 

 

[bortass]

2 minutes ago, Augster said:

“Post a 6 at all times”? Is it a par 5 where you get a shot?

 

Post net par for the hole you did not play by the rules. 
 

 

I used a 2 stroke hole in my example based off my CH of 24. A few of us on the board aren't scratch and can't drive the ball 300 yards all the time 😜

[2bGood]

22 minutes ago, bortass said:

I used a 2 stroke hole in my example based off my CH of 24. A few of us on the board aren't scratch and can't drive the ball 300 yards all the time 😜

If you are 24, then you likely average higher than 6 on a two stroke hole according the data on scoring averages, so I don't see how you are inflating you cap vs what it would be playing by the rules.

Edited December 6, 2021 by 2bGood