Jump to content

Driver lie angle


Trap Junior
 Share

Recommended Posts

Have you done detailed impact pattern testing on your driver face?  Figure out exactly where you tend to strike most shots and go from there.

 

Maybe a combination of things, in which a very upright lie for you, could accentuate the pull/hook,....but the first priority would be impact pattern combined with your path/face angle relationship.  If you're very inside out with path, you have to be closed with the face, which can lead to lots of hooks.  Unless you were to get the face more open and play for a push, with your alignment more left

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Cwebb said:

Have you done detailed impact pattern testing on your driver face?  Figure out exactly where you tend to strike most shots and go from there.

 

Maybe a combination of things, in which a very upright lie for you, could accentuate the pull/hook,....but the first priority would be impact pattern combined with your path/face angle relationship.  If you're very inside out with path, you have to be closed with the face, which can lead to lots of hooks.  Unless you were to get the face more open and play for a push, with your alignment more left

Hi.  My path is around 1-3 degrees in to out .  My face is closed to the path  and when it gets a little too big it starts straight or left and turns over.  It doesnt seem to take a terrible swing for this pull draw/hook to emerge.  It happens especially under pressure.  I have been trying all sorts in my swing to get rid of it but it still is there.  I am 6ft 1'' and my 6 iron dynamic lie is 60-62 degrees.

 

I am hitting it terrible at the moment.  My strikes are high on the face. My angle of attack has changed with some swing changes.  It used to be +3 and now its -0.5 to +1

Edited by Trap Junior
Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, Trap Junior said:

Hi.  My path is around 1-3 degrees in to out .  My face is closed to the path  and when it gets a little too big it starts straight or left and turns over.  It doesnt seem to take a terrible swing for this pull draw/hook to emerge.  It happens especially under pressure.  I have been trying all sorts in my swing to get rid of it but it still is there.  I am 6ft 1'' and my 6 iron dynamic lie is 60-62 degrees.

 

I am hitting it terrible at the moment.  My strikes are high on the face. My angle of attack has changed with some swing changes.  It used to be +3 and now its -0.5 to +1

 

If you're hitting it too high on the face, especially towards the toe, that can produce a very low spin diving hook.  I would start by trying to improve that.  Make sure you're not teeing it too high, if your AOA doesn't work with that tee height for a good impact pattern.  Practice a lot with impact spray on the face.

 

I would also try a more open face at address.  Don't let the head just sit "square" or wherever it wants to.  Grip it at the exact angle you want/need and keep it there.  Sure, it's nice to have a driver that sits at the exact angle we need, but don't rely on it.  Lots of top players through history have addressed the ball with an open face.

 

If the open face starts to get the face more square to your path and it produces a push.  Just set your alignment a little left and play it

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Cwebb said:

 

If you're hitting it too high on the face, especially towards the toe, that can produce a very low spin diving hook.  I would start by trying to improve that.  Make sure you're not teeing it too high, if your AOA doesn't work with that tee height for a good impact pattern.  Practice a lot with impact spray on the face.

 

I would also try a more open face at address.  Don't let the head just sit "square" or wherever it wants to.  Grip it at the exact angle you want/need and keep it there.  Sure, it's nice to have a driver that sits at the exact angle we need, but don't rely on it.  Lots of top players through history have addressed the ball with an open face.

 

If the open face starts to get the face more square to your path and it produces a push.  Just set your alignment a little left and play it

Cheers.  Will do the face spray. 

 

What about getting my driver flattened? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Trap Junior said:

Cheers.  Will do the face spray. 

 

What about getting my driver flattened? 

About the lowest lie you can find these days is 56*.  With very few options in that.  You're at 58*, so 2* less in a driver isn't going to be your solution.  It would be nice to have something flatter though

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Trap Junior said:

My face is closed to the path  and when it gets a little too big it starts straight or left and turns over.  It doesnt seem to take a terrible swing for this pull draw/hook to emerge.  It happens especially under pressure.  I have been trying all sorts in my swing to get rid of it but it still is there. 

 

Sorry but that's all swing.  A lie angle source for the problem would be much more consistent.   Not a pro myself but it sounds like you're getting out of sync.   Have you seen a pro about it?   DIY swing help can be difficult if you don't know what to look for.   Knowing what's happening is much easier than figuring out why it's happening or what the best way might be to fix it.

 

Plus, I'd be suspect of that 50* lie angle number, unless maybe you're using a really long playing length and even then I'd want more reliable verification.    Use the vertical whiteboard marker line on the ball and see how that transfers to the driver face.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lie with the driver doesn't matter all that much, as it doesn't affect the face angle all that much. Watch any pro's driver swing. They all have the toe very high. If the lie angle mattered they'd all be hooking every drive.

The easiest cure for a consistent toe hit is to line up with the ball closer to the heel. If I line up with the ball on the center line I nearly always have a toe hit, so I don't do that. I even added a mark to my driver crown a half inch inside the center line to remind me where to line it up.

There's a few reasons for the hook that comes out of nowhere. In my case it comes from trying to hit it too hard. When I do that I bend my left arm and over swing. Swing flaws that lead to bad results almost always come down to fundamentals. Remembering what it is that you're supposed to do is why you see pros take so many practice swings. If I want to hit a bad shot the easiest way to do it is to walk up to the ball and give it a whack without practice swings.

Cleveland Launcher HB Driver 10.5 degree

Cleveland Launcher Halo Hybrids 16, 19, 22 degree

Cleveland Launcher HB Irons 5-SW

Cleveland CBX 2 Wedge 60 degree

All with senior flex graphite shafts

JumboMax Ultra Lite size M on driver, size S on the rest

Taylor Made Daddy Long Legs putter, Winn Dri-Tac Jumbo Lite Pistol Putter Grip

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My understanding of this that the 8 degree difference in measured angle at impact and the static lie angle of the driver will give a face angle difference of 1.4 degrees on a 10 degree driver. (The higher the loft the bigger the difference in face angle).

 

Personally I feel that this is significant enough that it could at least be a part of the problem that is causing the shot to go offline.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Try standing closer to the ball... honestly. I always struggled with a toe hook, really inconsistent. Realised on video I was standing too far away from it, weight on toes, hunched forward etc... I have started standing at least an inch closer, weight more back on heels... felt weird at 1st but driver is now way more consistant, way less toe strikes etc and getting used to the different positions it created. I would go see a pro, unlikely to be equipment related!

Edited by jaffabell88

Titleist TS3 10.5 (B1) - Tensei Pro White 60TX

Cobra F8+ 13.5 - Tensei Pro White 70TX

Titleist T200 3i - Tensei AV Raw White 90x

Titleist 718 TMB 4i - X100 AMT White

Titleist 716 MB 5i-PW - X100 AMT White

Taylormade Milled Grind Black 52,56,60 - S200

Taylormade TP Bandon 1 L-Neck - KBS CT Tour Matte Black - GP Pro Only Cord Red Star

Tour Velvet Align

Bridgestone Tour BXS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, HISPL said:

My understanding of this that the 8 degree difference in measured angle at impact and the static lie angle of the driver will give a face angle difference of 1.4 degrees on a 10 degree driver. (The higher the loft the bigger the difference in face angle).

 

Sorry - just nit-picking here - although the effect on the ball flight is similar, technically the lie angle doesn't change the face angle.  It tilts the d-plane instead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/10/2021 at 4:10 PM, Trap Junior said:

On Trackman my dynamic lie with driver is 50 degrees.  Is this unusual?  I looked up Titleist.  Their stock lie angle is 58 degrees.  My bad shot is a pull draw/hook.

 

Could the lie angle be causing it? 

Lie angle is unimportant with the driver, due to the low lofts involved. Don't listen to the BS stating otherwise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, dokex said:

Lie angle is unimportant with the driver, due to the low lofts involved. Don't listen to the BS stating otherwise.

 

Most of the time it's not.  But if it really were 8* off (which I doubt is the case) it would matter even on a driver.   Unless of course you scatter the ball so much already that you don't consider an additional 20 yards of a miss to be important. 🙂

 

Edited by Stuart_G
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Most of the time it's not.  But if it really were 8* off (which I doubt is the case) it would matter even on a driver.   Unless of course you scatter the ball so much already that you don't consider an additional 20 yards of a miss to be important.

 

I share your sentiments; 8º off sounds excessive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, dokex said:

I share your sentiments; 8º off sounds excessive.


8 degrees is likely more common than you think.

 

it’s not unusual for players to have a swing plane around 45 degrees, even with a decent amount of shaft droop (6-7 degrees) it is reasonable to expect the lie to be our 7-8 degrees depending on the static loft of the driver.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, HISPL said:


8 degrees is likely more common than you think.

 

it’s not unusual for players to have a swing plane around 45 degrees, even with a decent amount of shaft droop (6-7 degrees) it is reasonable to expect the lie to be our 7-8 degrees depending on the static loft of the driver.

 

I haven't seen anything to support those claims - but I certainly haven't seen it all.  

 

By any chance do you have any hard data from a reliable source to back any of that up? 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

I haven't seen anything to support those claims - but I certainly haven't seen it all.  

 

By any chance do you have any hard data from a reliable source to back any of that up? 

 


Trackman has an average for the PGA Tour for driver swing plane listed at 45 degrees. 


Site


Also, below if you care to read on is a some background on my experience with fittings and some of the findings that would found on a regular basis.

 

 Over 6 years I did approximately 4000 fittings as a Master Club Fitter, Level 2 certified Trackman operator, went to the Mitchell Golf “school” to get their certification as a “Master Club Performance Specialist” or whatever they called it, to be honest that was a pretty entry level/basic course. 
Had the opportunity on multiple occasions to meet with and discuss these sorts of topics with the folks at Callaway (Engineers at their HQ and around the corner at the Ely Callaway Performance Centre aka ECPC) which was great, I’ve learnt more from them and conversing with experts like Howard Jones and Tom Wishon than I did at the Mitchell Golf school. Don’t get me wrong, the school wasn’t that bad, but nowhere near as advanced as the course/certification name may suggest.

 

So, in my experience I have found a lot of players, myself included regularly have a swing plane less than 50 degrees. Mine is around 43-45 when swinging well and some of my own experiences are below.

 

Based on this, using my swing plane average of 44 degrees give or take means that with 7 degrees of shaft droop I should be using a driver with a lie angle somewhere in the vicinity of 51 degrees… Very hard to find in modern equipment.

 

I measured a lot of drivers (Mainly Ping and TM at the time, this is 5-8 years back now) using a good morning quality spec gauge to be 59-61 degrees, take a look at a lot of the TM Tour Issue driver heads on online auction sites as an example, their spec stickers often show lie angle of 60 degrees, even when their published “standard” lie angle may have been around 58 degrees in the standard setting for the head.

 

So with my swing plane of 44 degrees, if I had of been using one of the driver heads that had been measured at 61 degrees even with 7 degrees of droop in the golf shaft that would leave me at 10 degrees out on lie angle! So yes, this is very possible.

 

Fortunately I was able to measure the spec on some models of Callaway heads at around 56 degrees lie, using the “tour issue” red dot flat lie angle adaptor allowed me to go another .75 degrees flat which got me closer to where I wanted to be.

 

Another major part of the issue is that with lie angles being out that much it can really influence strike location on the club face which can make it very difficult for players to strike the ball solidly through no lack of effort/trying on their part!

 

 

D8FF483B-10B9-4061-8898-66AF5D9D41F6.png

Edited by HISPL
Added a screen capture and link to Trackman info.
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, dokex said:

Lie angle is unimportant with the driver, due to the low lofts involved. Don't listen to the BS stating otherwise.


Sorry, but I have to strongly disagree.

 

With driver lie angles there is the potential to see 10 degrees out or more, this not only influences “face angle” (Or more accurately how the loft is tilted) but also strike location too.

 

Try getting a player to hit the slightly high, slightly toe “magic spot” on the club face angle when the lie angle is too upright by 8-10 degrees or potentially even more… You would be making what is a difficult task for some players even with well fitted equipment, much more challenging.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

@HISPLThat's interesting but swing plane is really a poor predictor of dynamic lie angle.  I'm asking about actual (reliable) measured dynamic lie angles and amounts of shaft droop.

 


I did some data capture for an sports industry colleague (PHD/Professor at a local university) who had access to VICON but unfortunately didn’t get to use the equipment myself.

 

When I get back into club fitting I’m keen to purchase a Gears 3D motion capture system, with that, GC Quad, TM 4 and good force plates I would feel much more comfortable in capturing the data that I feel would be important for world class fittings.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Stuart_G and @dokex this link may also be of interest, strangely I’ve only just found it searching tonight, but it seems to alight with my own thoughts/experiences and the information I’ve had access to.

 

https://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/64131-effects-of-lie-angle-on-varying-degrees-of-loft/ 

Edited by HISPL
Forgot to add link, sorry slightly sleep deprived!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Did he publish anything with the data?

 

 


He has written a few papers but none on this topic.

 

When I was assisting with collecting data for a project it was looking at clubs modified/designed to assist mobility impaired  golfers.

 

Previous testing in the golf space was conducted before I let him, I recall that it was for his thesis when completing his PHD. 
we had some interesting discussions over a few drinks regarding his testing and how from a fitting perspective I felt testing could be improved upon, it was great to be able to get that opportunity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Stuart_G said:

 

I would expect that two people using the same (unsubstantiated) assumption would lead to similar results 🙂

 


I don’t think that this is coincidence at all, and to counter, what proof do you have that this is not an accurate assessment?

 

If you can be bothered, have a look at the information that is available online about this subject when Gears 3D is used to capture data… 😀

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, HISPL said:


I don’t think that this is coincidence at all, and to counter, what proof do you have that this is not an accurate assessment?

 

I didn't say it was a coincidence.    And I didn't say it was inaccurate, I said it hasn't been validated - or at least no one's been able to provide any proof of that validation.

 

I can see how many might think the swing plane might be an indication of the lie angle.  But the number of people who make the same assumption doesn't change the fact that it's still an assumption until validated with proper study and data collection.

 

 

 

 

Just now, HISPL said:

If you can be bothered, have a look at the information that is available online about this subject when Gears 3D is used to capture data… 😀

 

I've spent lots of time going through lots of data.   I haven't seen anything to support either claim that the dynamic lie angle is equal to the swing plane or any data that shows that the amount of shaft droop at impact is typically no more than a couple degrees (or more than 1-2" of lateral deflection).

 

If you think it's so easy to find, they you shouldn't have a problem providing a link to that published data.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

I didn't say it was a coincidence.    And I didn't say it was inaccurate, I said it hasn't been validated - or at least no one's been able to provide any proof of that validation.

 

I can see how many might think the swing plane might be an indication of the lie angle.  But the number of people who make the same assumption doesn't change the fact that it's still an assumption until validated with proper study and data collection.

 

 

 

 

 

I've spent lots of time going through lots of data.   I haven't seen anything to support either claim that the dynamic lie angle is equal to the swing plane or any data that shows that the amount of shaft droop at impact is typically no more than a couple degrees (or more than 1-2" of lateral deflection).

 

If you think it's so easy to find, they you shouldn't have a problem providing a link to that published data.


Dynamic lie angle isn’t equivalent to swing plane at all, shaft droop obviously plays a role.

 

Lexie and Curtis Thompson have about 40mm of shaft droop that roughly equates to 2 degrees.

 

What influences this is “hand height” and how fast a player is swinging the club, if either one of these (or both) is higher, the resulting shaft droop will also be higher relatively speaking.

 

Simply put, players with higher hands and more speed will have more shaft droop, and due to variations in these components of the golf swing the resulting droop will be different also.

 

Now, with all that said if the actual amount of droop is less than the 7 degrees that I had used in my explanation then this means the static lie angle of the head is even more upright relative to what it should be.

 

If we take the value for shaft droop as 4 degrees, with a 44 degree swing plane and a driver lie angle of day 58 degrees this means that the driver lie is 10 degrees too upright… worse still when it it might have a lie of 60 or more!

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Our picks

    • 2022 Farmers Insurance Open Photos - 26 WITBs & New Gear- Discussion and Links
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
      General Albums - 
       
      2022 Farmers Insurance Open - Monday #1
      2022 Farmers Insurance Open - Monday #2
      2022 Farmers Insurance Open - Monday #3
      2022 Farmers Insurance Open - Monday #4
       
       
      WITB Albums - 
       
      Hideki Matsuyama - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Sung Kang - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Adam Long - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Brandon Wu - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Jimmy Walker - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Sam Burns - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Xander Schauffele - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Trey Mullinax - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Daniel Berger - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      James Hahn - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Phil Mickelson - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Aaron Wise - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Justin Thomas - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Lee Hodges - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Jordan Spieth - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Cameron Champ - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Kyle Stanley - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
       
       
      Pullout Albums - 
       
      New Super Stroke grip - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Tour Aim alignment aids - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Swag Golf: Hideki's caddie bowing at Augusta, signed headcovers – 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Dylan Frittelli's Callaway Apex TCB Sand Wedge (1-of-1 proto) – 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Bryson DeChambeau's Cobra King LTDx 5-degree driver – 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      NeuroPeak Pro NTel Belt - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      JumboMax JMX Zen Lite grips – 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
       
      Cameron Champ WITB has the new Ping i525

       
      Bryson's WITB has the new Cobra LTDx Driver 

       
      Phils new Rogue Driver

       
      Bryson's LAGolf Shaft in the driver

       
      Xander has the triple diamond "S" driver

       
      New SuperStroke grips for 2022

       
        • Thanks
      • 8 replies
    • 2022 The American Express WITB Photos (Spotted: New gear for 2022) - Discussion & Links
      Please put and comments or questions here
       
       
      Scotty Cameron putters - 2022 American Express
      New Taylor-Made putters - 2022 American Express
      New Odyssey putters - 2022 American Express
      New Axis 1 model putter - - 2022 American Express
      Patrick Cantlay - WITB - 2022 American Express
      Mitsubishi MMT putter shaft - 2022 American Express
      Ping putter - 2022 American Express
      Abraham Ancer - WITB - 2022 American Express
      Jason Dufner - WITB - 2022 American Express
      Will Zalatoris - WITB - 2022 American Express
      The Surgeon 6109 wedge - 2022 American Express
      LA Golf "DJ Series" shafts (2022 American Express)
       
       
       
      2022 American Express - Monday #1
       
       
       
       
      • 40 replies
    • Sony Open Pics from January 11, 2022 Part 1
      I was able to get out to the Sony Open today to take a few pics.  I guess due to Covid precautions they kept the spectators pretty far from the players.  Also due to camera restrictions they've put in place, I wasn't able to bring the big lens like I normally do. Hopefully they'll ease up on the ropes and I'll be able to get more pics tomorrow!
        • Thanks
        • Like
      • 22 replies
    • 2022 Callaway Rogue ST drivers (in-hand photos)
      2022 Callaway Rogue ST Max driver
       

       
      2022 Callaway Rogue ST Max D driver
       
      2021 Callaway Rogue ST Max 
       
      2022 Callaway Rogue ST Max LS driver

       
      2022 Callaway Rogue ST Triple Diamond LS

       
      Rogue ST exploded views
        • Like
      • 225 replies
    • Titleist Vokey SM9 Link on Wedge Works Coming Soon- UPDATED Pics Added Pg 4
      Looks like there is a link on Titleist Wedge Works for the new Vokey SM9, but doesn't show any photos yet.
       
      https://www.vokey.com/product/WM137.html#start=4
        • Thanks
        • Like
      • 237 replies

×
×
  • Create New...