Reduce the fields in golf tournaments?

[golfortennis]

3 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

Insert Columbo voice: "Uhhh, let me ask you just one more thing before I go..."

 

Phil has probably made over $800 million from hitting a ball with a stick. I guess he's up to $50 million this year in endorsements.

If he was the top career earner in baseball or football, he would have made about half of what he has made so far in golf.

My question is, sir, where were you on the night Phil lost his perspective?

 

Are you sure about that?  What were the endorsements for the baseball players?  How do we know how much they have made?  

 

Golf carries two advantages: 1)longevity possibilities, and 2)the smaller audience is much more affluent.  So there is that.  But Bryce Harper, Mike Trout and Fernando Tatis, among others, have been committed north of $300 million for the next ten years for doing their job.  That is just their employers.  Then they can get endorsements as well.  

 

Mickelson has been doing this thirty plus years.  So that is good, but he's also had to keep at it.  

 

[nsxguy]

On 11/19/2021 at 2:01 PM, Pepperturbo said:

We have different perceptions based on experience.  I agree 100% with the above.

 

Here's where we disagree.  Aside from building multiple businesses, as I said, I've studied human behavior as a profession for 40yrs.  It's lead me to a conclusion that many don't want to hear, especially in their prime; while others see signs, don't personalize, and are willing to listen.

 

Back in "1969" The Peter Principle (https://tinyurl.com/y9sexo79) was coined by Laurence J Peter.  He wrote a book on the subject.  His findings held a great deal of value to all levels of Human Resources and executive leadership.  Why?  It proved valid.  People reach the height of their own incompetence or complacency, or using your word, coast. 

 

I include myself in the category of complacency, as I have reached a level that is satisfying.  I don't want to start another business, don't desire, at what ever the cost, to build the company larger than N.A., and don't need any more money.  I don't need to reach scratch golfer.  All I want from golf now is to card my age.  One of my buddy's built his Wholesale/Distb company to 800 employees.  A number of us were talking over single malts and cigars about our futures.  He surprised us by saying he's reach his comfort zone.  He had an offer to sell out, and took it.  Another friend owned 4 golf courses and 15 car dealerships.  He decided he doesn't need anymore, he's selling out. 

 

What I am talking about is at different ages, everyone reaches a point of comfort and or incompetence, including professional golfers and other pro athletes.  Most people find comfort and never earn more that $150k a year, doing some job, while others like you and me, some of my friends kept driving on to find various degrees of satisfaction.  It depends on the person.  Let me finish this with a related example.  A relative of mine went from HS to college, quit then went to play on the PGA Tour, this was back in the 50s & 60s.  After a number of years of liveable earnings, saw that he wasn't going to get to Nicklaus or Palmer's level, so eventually he left the tour.  He's the perfect example of what I have been talking about.  He was happy making the tour and played for a number of years, but never in the limelight.  He's now 85yrs old, and still plays golf once to twice a week using his old blades. 

 

Clearly, some people don't like this fact of life, so I will leave the subject here.  You have a good day and good luck with your biz.

 

No, no, no.

 

I love to hear from experts on a subject.

 

Not sure how you worked 40 years and studied all those people/positions and still were able to successfully start multiple businesses but given your exploits just in a hobby like golf you are clearly more accomplished than most.

 

And I'm certainly not surprised at your suggestion of cutting more players - "rich get richer" sounds just like you.

 

But, and excuse me if I missed it, you are referring to people who have jobs. Salaried people, working for somebody else.

 

I am well aware of the Peter Principle and have experienced it many times. It is not always a lack of effort but sometimes the next guy up the ladder not allowing HIS underlings to advance to HIS position. Equals ? Not having that.

 

But in any case I didn't notice where you addressed Tour players, as they are not employees but independent contractors. They don't perform, they don't get paid.

 

If the player is one of these marginal/middle-of-the-pack  players and they don't pay attention to their games, in short order, they won't HAVE an income stream. "Status quo" ? I think not.

 

I'd guess the average intelligence level of PGA Tour players is considerably higher than, say, football. They KNOW the $2M (gross) they've won @ 25 years old, while it sounds awfully good to the lay person, won't last them the rest of their lives.

 

Your relative notwithstanding, it's one thing to have reached a comfortable level in a corporate environment, or having a guaranteed $50M over 7 years contract and "coast", but it's quite another when you're trying to put together a career with no guarantees.

 

So how does your vast experience perceive these types of worker bees ?

 

TIA

[Hankshank]

8 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Which means what?

 

He mistakenly uses his fish fork to eat his salad?

 

🤣

That daytime work is what brings the income. Maybe its different in the USA but hard, daily effort is what you should do here, being from workers suburbs. I was brought up with that. Noone did otherwise. I now, working successfully, live amongst people that see building a company, starting a musical career, following a talent in sports, join the humanities at a university as the more obvious choice. Golf is a more common pastime in my new habitus. I’m not saying Billy Ho is right or wrong, he might just see life somewhat different than sons of golf pros or lawyers.

[bscinstnct]

37 minutes ago, Hankshank said:

That daytime work is what brings the income. Maybe its different in the USA but hard, daily effort is what you should do here, being from workers suburbs. I was brought up with that. Noone did otherwise. I now, working successfully, live amongst people that see building a company, starting a musical career, following a talent in sports, join the humanities at a university as the more obvious choice. Golf is a more common pastime in my new habitus. I’m not saying Billy Ho is right or wrong, he might just see life somewhat different than sons of golf pros or lawyers.

 

Thats very nice.

 

We lived by a slightly different ethos…

 

“To us, those goody-good people who worked crappy jobs for bum paychecks and took the subway to work every day, and worried about their bills, were dead. I mean, they were suckers. They had no b*lls. If we wanted something, we just took it. If anyone complained twice they got hit so bad, believe me, they never complained again.”

 

But, as they say, there’s more than one way to skin a cat 🤣

Edited November 21, 2021 by bscinstnct

[miamistomp]

"the only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes “Awww!”

 

 

[cdnglf]

7 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

Are you sure about that?  What were the endorsements for the baseball players?  How do we know how much they have made?  

 

Golf carries two advantages: 1)longevity possibilities, and 2)the smaller audience is much more affluent.  So there is that.  But Bryce Harper, Mike Trout and Fernando Tatis, among others, have been committed north of $300 million for the next ten years for doing their job.  That is just their employers.  Then they can get endorsements as well.  

 

Mickelson has been doing this thirty plus years.  So that is good, but he's also had to keep at it.  

 

Baseball endorsements are peanuts, comparatively speaking. Read one of those annual Forbes articles - or just watch TV. 
 

 

[smashdn]

On 11/20/2021 at 5:01 PM, dbelles1 said:

The break even for a tour player is about 500k, they pay their own travel, hotels, coaches, trainers, caddies, etc. And on the money list from last year that would be about 175. So if anything the tournaments need to be bigger (156) and the cut line higher (76) with more compensation.

 

Why?

[Titleist99]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

Why?

Because you just can't take care of the fat-cats at the tops and call yourself a league that work for the entire tour, that's why.....they're all dues paying members....IMO

 

Add jobs don't take them away...... The Tour might want to reduce some of those invitationals but that a subject for another day....IMO

[Titleist99]

Billy Ho and all the Golf WRXers who think there are to many tournaments and once some have a little extra cash that they coast or slack off, just listen to Taylor Gooch's post interview where he talks about contemplating doing something else besides professional golf. He actually thought about Best buy to make ends meet.....Plenty of stories like this that the public don't hear about.

 

At the age of thirty, he won a PGATOUR event. He gets all of the 2021-2022 season and the next two years exempt.  Can you blame him if he decide to relax for a minute, make out his new schedule, spend a little quality time with his young family, catch up on a few bills and smell the roses.

 

Yet some will classify this as complacency.....IMO

Edited November 22, 2021 by Titleist99

[smashdn]

2 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Because you just can't take care of the fat-cats at the tops and call yourself a league that work for the entire tour, that's why.....they're all dues paying members....IMO

 

Add jobs don't take them away...... The Tour might want to reduce some of those invitationals but that a subject for another day....IMO

 

What "fat cats" are you referring to?  The non-golfers running the tour behind the scenes or the guys that consistently finish at/near the top of the leaderboard?

 

If it is the latter, I don't see it as the Tour's job to ensure that the guys who aren't winning or coming close to winning have a comfortable existence while middling along.  Those guys aren't the Washington Generals.  If you want/need more money then finish higher.

 

If it is the former, who is out there negotiating the deals that fund the purses?

 

The players have the say in how it is ran to a great extent.

 

Just looking at the PAC > https://www.pgatour.com/news/2021/02/16/rory-mcilroy-elected-pga-tour-player-advisory-council-chairman-for-2021.html < there isn't a lot of chalk there aside from Rory, Rahm and JT.  The guys in the middle/bottom are pretty well represented.

 

You can slice the pieces of pie smaller but that doesn't mean there is more pie to go around, it just means more get less than they used to.

 

The bottom portion of the tour is supposed to churn a bit.  It isn't supposed to be a comfortable existence down there.  

[Pepperturbo]

On 11/20/2021 at 3:01 PM, dbelles1 said:

The break even for a tour player is about 500k, they pay their own travel, hotels, coaches, trainers, caddies, etc. And on the money list from last year that would be about 175. So if anything the tournaments need to be bigger (156) and the cut line higher (76) with more compensation.

The only thing I will say to that is I have run a P&L for 40+yrs, multiple companies, traveled over North and South America, and EU = some trips gone for months, way more than the average tour player travels.  I know the costs for multiple people traveling, employee costs, employees earning 500-700k, benefit costs, cars and hotels, etc.  Your conclusion IMO is way off.  I also know when properly managed, what 800k-2M a year nets, except I have a helluva lot more high paid employees than any tour player covers.  But, arguing gets us nothing.  You have a good day.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[Titleist99]

BREAKING NEWS!!......the PGATOUR has decided to reward all of their members by upping the prize money and added bonuses......FedEx will be $18M .....Holy cow! PIP up to $50M.

 

PGATOUR definitely has zero plans to cut cards and other nonsense of the sort.....Looks like the player will get a larger piece of the pie ...... tournament purses will rise as well........good to see that the tour listens to me.....LOL!

Edited November 22, 2021 by Titleist99

[smashdn]

47 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Looks like the player will get a larger piece of the pie ...... tournament purses will rise as well........good to see that the tour listens to me.....LOL!

 

Equivalent piece of a larger pie.  Different animal than what was discussed by Horschel.

[oikos1]

45 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

BREAKING NEWS!!......the PGATOUR has decided to reward all of their members by upping the prize money and added bonuses......FedEx will be $18M .....Holy cow! PIP up to $50M.

 

PGATOUR definitely has zero plans to cut cards and other nonsense of the sort.....Looks like the player will get a larger piece of the pie ...... tournament purses will rise as well........good to see that the tour listens to me.....LOL!

This time around, instead of thanking Tiger, the players should all thank the Saudis.  Quite evident the PGA Tour sees whatever iteration of a "World Golf League" as a real and present threat.

[grm24]

For some actual context of the purse increases next year on tour here is the article on it.

 

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/11/22/pga-tour-bigger-bonuses-more-prize-money-2022/

[cdnglf]

1 hour ago, oikos1 said:

This time around, instead of thanking Tiger, the players should all thank the Saudis.  Quite evident the PGA Tour sees whatever iteration of a "World Golf League" as a real and present threat.

It is no more complicated than more TV money => bigger purses.

[cdnglf]

2 hours ago, grm24 said:

For some actual context of the purse increases next year on tour here is the article on it.

 

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/11/22/pga-tour-bigger-bonuses-more-prize-money-2022/

That’s a lot of dough. A Tiger 2000-type year would pay $40M in 2022

[dbelles1]

3 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

The only thing I will say to that is I have run a P&L for 40+yrs, multiple companies, traveled over North and South America, and EU = some trips gone for months, way more than the average tour player travels.  I know the costs for multiple people traveling, employee costs, employees earning 500-700k, benefit costs, cars and hotels, etc.  Your conclusion IMO is way off.  I also know when properly managed, what 800k-2M a year nets, except I have a helluva lot more high paid employees than any tour player covers.  But, arguing gets us nothing.  You have a good day.

I won’t have a good day. I’m going off of numbers given by PGA TOUR players (there numbers may be higher as they are top 10 owgr). plus traveling week to week is more expensive than month to month. what you do for work doesn’t matter with this unless if you are a professional athlete

[bscinstnct]

5 hours ago, oikos1 said:

This time around, instead of thanking Tiger, the players should all thank the Saudis.  Quite evident the PGA Tour sees whatever iteration of a "World Golf League" as a real and present threat.

 

Greg Norman gonna have the shortest CEO career since Bud Fox at Blue Star Airlines ; )

[oikos1]

14 hours ago, cdnglf said:

It is no more complicated than more TV money => bigger purses.

Lol.  Ok.

 

"The rights renewal also comes as a new golf league — the Premier Golf League — tries to recruit the biggest names in golf away from the PGA Tour"

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/06/cbs-nbc-renew-pga-tour-golf-for-nine-more-years.html

[MountainKing]

On 11/16/2021 at 6:25 PM, bscinstnct said:

BHo wants the tour to be harder?

 

In 11 years he’s amassed a grand total of 2 top-20s in the Majors.

 

If the tour was any harder, he’d be standing outside the ropes yelling,

 

”Bababooey!”

 

 

 

I mean there's guys on this forum shooting in the 80's and 90's that want to play the back tees for the challenge......

[Titleist99]

8 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

Lol.  Ok.

 

"The rights renewal also comes as a new golf league — the Premier Golf League — tries to recruit the biggest names in golf away from the PGA Tour"

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/06/cbs-nbc-renew-pga-tour-golf-for-nine-more-years.html

This should be required reading for all GOLFWRXers. Next week they'll attack sponsors for having a few exemption..... When *85% of revenue comes from them and TV. Now you know why golf has as many commercials...30 second ads etc. $1.5B in revenue, I'd say that's a tad more than estimated by this fine board.... As I stated before the tour works for the players (all of the players).

 

The memo didn't get into the retirement plan but it's one of the best.....google it.

[Shilgy]

From Billy Ho’s perspective who can blame him?  Don’t need any more of these darn guys coming in and taking my dough like Morikawa.

$23m in 2.5 years? $390k per event?  Wow!

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/collin-morikawa-career-earnings-staggering-by-event-pga-tour-stats?utm_medium=email&utm_source=112321&utm_campaign=newsandtours&utm_content=DM23130&uuid=8a0e6a26-43d9-4552-890f-cae660892c4e

 

[Titleist99]

11 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

From Billy Ho’s perspective who can blame him?  Don’t need any more of these darn guys coming in and taking my dough like Morikawa.

$23m in 2.5 years? $390k per event?  Wow!

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/collin-morikawa-career-earnings-staggering-by-event-pga-tour-stats?utm_medium=email&utm_source=112321&utm_campaign=newsandtours&utm_content=DM23130&uuid=8a0e6a26-43d9-4552-890f-cae660892c4e

 

And that's after four years of college and earning his degree....... He said that the big money will always be there and he was right by staying in school.

[cdnglf]

1 hour ago, oikos1 said:

Lol.  Ok.

 

"The rights renewal also comes as a new golf league — the Premier Golf League — tries to recruit the biggest names in golf away from the PGA Tour"

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/06/cbs-nbc-renew-pga-tour-golf-for-nine-more-years.html

 

The rights renewal was going to happen, regardless of the Powerpoint Golf League. And the rights are what drive purses.

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, Titleist99 said:

 As I stated before the tour works for the players (all of the players).

 

It just works better for some than others.  Always has.

[oikos1]

17 minutes ago, cdnglf said:

 

The rights renewal was going to happen, regardless of the Powerpoint Golf League. And the rights are what drive purses.

PIP money isn't a purse.  And I don't think a commissioner would call an emergency meeting and threaten "life time bans" just for the fun of it.  Of course the rights renewal were going to happen, but to think the increase in purses doesn't have a connection to the threat of a new world golf league, well, we'll just have to disagree on that one.

 

"The tour is about to begin a new media-rights deal in 2022, yet the financial bumps also come as the tour combats threats of rival leagues potentially promising guaranteed paydays to the game’s biggest stars."

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pga-tour-2022-prize-money

 

"Again, all of this is a response by the Tour to external threats like the Premier Golf League" ... "All of this is extremely confusing, even for those paying close attention. Fundamentally, the PGA Tour is attempting to shore up its castle walls with myriad militia trying to breach its exterior."

 

https://www.cbssports.com/golf/news/pga-tour-to-increase-tournament-purses-bonuses-for-players-amid-threats-from-rival-start-up-leagues/

 

"In the memo, Monahan writes: “We are positioned to grow faster in the next ten years than we ever have in our existence”. Translation: There is more to come."

 

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/pga-tour-unveils-staggering-increase-to-prize-money-and-bonuses

[Titleist99]

6 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

PIP money isn't a purse.  And I don't think a commissioner would call an emergency meeting and threaten "life time bans" just for the fun of it.  Of course the rights renewal were going to happen, but to think the increase in purses doesn't have a connection to the threat of a new world golf league, well, we'll just have to disagree on that one.

 

"The tour is about to begin a new media-rights deal in 2022, yet the financial bumps also come as the tour combats threats of rival leagues potentially promising guaranteed paydays to the game’s biggest stars."

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pga-tour-2022-prize-money

 

"Again, all of this is a response by the Tour to external threats like the Premier Golf League" ... "All of this is extremely confusing, even for those paying close attention. Fundamentally, the PGA Tour is attempting to shore up its castle walls with myriad militia trying to breach its exterior."

 

https://www.cbssports.com/golf/news/pga-tour-to-increase-tournament-purses-bonuses-for-players-amid-threats-from-rival-start-up-leagues/

 

"In the memo, Monahan writes: “We are positioned to grow faster in the next ten years than we ever have in our existence”. Translation: There is more to come."

 

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/pga-tour-unveils-staggering-increase-to-prize-money-and-bonuses

If I were a high schooler, I'd be hitting the range right now.....LOL! Big money in golf! IMO

[cdnglf]

28 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

PIP money isn't a purse.  And I don't think a commissioner would call an emergency meeting and threaten "life time bans" just for the fun of it.  Of course the rights renewal were going to happen, but to think the increase in purses doesn't have a connection to the threat of a new world golf league, well, we'll just have to disagree on that one.

 

"The tour is about to begin a new media-rights deal in 2022, yet the financial bumps also come as the tour combats threats of rival leagues potentially promising guaranteed paydays to the game’s biggest stars."

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pga-tour-2022-prize-money

 

"Again, all of this is a response by the Tour to external threats like the Premier Golf League" ... "All of this is extremely confusing, even for those paying close attention. Fundamentally, the PGA Tour is attempting to shore up its castle walls with myriad militia trying to breach its exterior."

 

https://www.cbssports.com/golf/news/pga-tour-to-increase-tournament-purses-bonuses-for-players-amid-threats-from-rival-start-up-leagues/

 

"In the memo, Monahan writes: “We are positioned to grow faster in the next ten years than we ever have in our existence”. Translation: There is more to come."

 

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/pga-tour-unveils-staggering-increase-to-prize-money-and-bonuses

 

Other than give it to the players, what else would the PGA Tour (ie the players) have done with the money?

[Soloman1]

Sooner or later, people get tired of hearing about someone else's money, money, money, whether from a person or a tax-exempt entity crowing about saving the children, tugging at heartstrings with background music and beating their chests about doing it all for charity. The charity comes from the local tournaments that give a whopping 16% of revenues to local charities.

 

How about living up to the spirit of a non-profit and not the technical legalese to color on the boundary line? Watch, the top PGA Tour Admin people are going to give themselves some fat raises, too.

 

And the golf fans and viewers will get...