During Lift, Clean, and Place play, a question about rule.

[bulls9999]

I was asked if I can ask about a what is the correct ruling.  A declaration of 'lift, clean, and place (within 6 inches of original position)' conditions during a tournament.... everywhere except in a hazard.  Ball ends up in a bush, 3-inches off the ground (not in a hazard).  So I was asked.... with the 6-inch allowance..... does the ball go down to the ground (3-inches) and over 3-inches (total = 6 inches).  I'm thinking, no, it go straight to the ground from where it is in the bush and then you have 6-inches either direction, no closer to the hole.

[jvincent]

Typically LCP also specifies "in the closely mown area of your own hole" to prevent that kind of stuff.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, bulls9999 said:

I was asked if I can ask about a what is the correct ruling.  A declaration of 'lift, clean, and place (within 6 inches of original position)' conditions during a tournament.... everywhere except in a hazard.  Ball ends up in a bush, 3-inches off the ground (not in a hazard).  So I was asked.... with the 6-inch allowance..... does the ball go down to the ground (3-inches) and over 3-inches (total = 6 inches).  I'm thinking, no, it go straight to the ground from where it is in the bush and then you have 6-inches either direction, no closer to the hole.

 

Model Local Rules

E-3 Preferred Lies

Purpose. When occasional local abnormal conditions might interfere with fair play, the affected parts of the course can be defined as ground under repair. But adverse conditions such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can sometimes damage the course or prevent use of heavy mowing equipment.

 

When such conditions are widespread on the course, the Committee can choose to adopt a Local Rule for “preferred lies” (also known as “winter rules”) to allow fair play or help protect the fairway. Such a Local Rule should be withdrawn as soon as conditions allow.

 

The use of this Local Rule outside the fairway in the general area is not recommended as it may result in a player receiving free relief from areas where a ball might otherwise be unplayable (such as in areas of bushes or trees).

 

It is not authorised to implement this Local Rule once play has begun for a stroke-play round. Doing so would allow players who have more holes to play the advantage of using it for a longer period of time. The Local Rule could be implemented once a match has begun between the play of two holes as opponents have an equal benefit.

 

For guidance on when and how this Local Rule may be used in order for scores to be submitted for handicapping purposes (including the size of the relief area and if it may only be used in the fairway), consult the rules or recommendations contained within the Handicap System operating in the local jurisdiction.

Model Local Rule E-3

“When a player’s ball lies in a part of the general area cut to fairway height or less [or identify a specific area such as ‘on the fairway of the 6th hole’], the player may take free relief once by placing the original ball or another ball in and playing it from this relief area:

• Reference Point: Spot of the original ball.

• Size of Relief Area Measured from Reference Point: [Specify size of relief area, such as one club-length, one scorecard length or 6 inches] from the reference point, but with these limits:

• Limits on Location of Relief Area:

  • Must not be nearer the hole than the reference point, and

  • Must be in the general area.

In proceeding under this Local Rule, the player must choose a spot to place the ball and use the procedures for replacing a ball under Rules 14.2b(2) and 14.2e.

Penalty for Playing Ball from a Wrong Place in Breach of Local Rule: General Penalty Under Rule 14.7a.”

 

 

 

[antip]

1 hour ago, jvincent said:

Typically LCP also specifies "in the closely mown area of your own hole" to prevent that kind of stuff.

It is rare on this continent (Australia) to go beyond the MLR E-3 restrictions, that is "of your own hole" is not typical here.

Edited November 21, 2021 by antip
added "Oz"

[antip]

The underlying question here, what if the ball is in an area that is defined as qualifying for preferred lies, but the ball is off the ground (tree, bush, loose impediment), is one that is before the Ruling Bodies but there is no official answer yet. And the question has been with them for a long time.

There are two variations of the key question - what if the ball is further from the ground than the defined preferred lies distance? And how is the limit of the relief area determined, ie do you ignore the vertical distance? Neither question has been answered.

 

Two further observations: first, the printed words (that NSX has reproduced above) state the limit of the relief area is the defined distance from the original position of the ball. That implies the vertical distance cannot be ignored. But as noted above, when this has been queried, the response has been "still thinking about this".

Second is RBs reiterate to anyone that queries that preferred lies should NOT be applied outside the closely mown general area - such a variation is not an approved local rule that Committees are free to use.

[Socrates]

3 hours ago, bulls9999 said:

I was asked if I can ask about a what is the correct ruling.  A declaration of 'lift, clean, and place (within 6 inches of original position)' conditions during a tournament.... everywhere except in a hazard.  Ball ends up in a bush, 3-inches off the ground (not in a hazard).  So I was asked.... with the 6-inch allowance..... does the ball go down to the ground (3-inches) and over 3-inches (total = 6 inches).  I'm thinking, no, it go straight to the ground from where it is in the bush and then you have 6-inches either direction, no closer to the hole.

The ball is not on the ground.  You can't use LCP when it's not on the ground.  Take an unplayable and drop it.  Then you can take your LCP.

[Augster]

5 hours ago, Socrates said:

The ball is not on the ground.  You can't use LCP when it's not on the ground.  Take an unplayable and drop it.  Then you can take your LCP.

This. 

[Halebopp]

11 hours ago, antip said:

The underlying question here, what if the ball is in an area that is defined as qualifying for preferred lies, but the ball is off the ground (tree, bush, loose impediment), is one that is before the Ruling Bodies but there is no official answer yet. And the question has been with them for a long time.

There are two variations of the key question - what if the ball is further from the ground than the defined preferred lies distance? And how is the limit of the relief area determined, ie do you ignore the vertical distance? Neither question has been answered.

 

Two further observations: first, the printed words (that NSX has reproduced above) state the limit of the relief area is the defined distance from the original position of the ball. That implies the vertical distance cannot be ignored. But as noted above, when this has been queried, the response has been "still thinking about this".

Second is RBs reiterate to anyone that queries that preferred lies should NOT be applied outside the closely mown general area - such a variation is not an approved local rule that Committees are free to use.

 

I find your last comment contradictory. Stating that something shouldn't be done doesn't mean you're not allowed to do so. Certainly it would've been very easy for the RBs to write it's not allowed rather than not recommended.

 

"The use of this Local Rule outside the fairway in the general area is not recommended..."

[Colin L]

12 hours ago, Socrates said:

The ball is not on the ground.  You can't use LCP when it's not on the ground.  Take an unplayable and drop it.  Then you can take your LCP.

You might want to re- consider this.

 

The local rule says nothing about the ball being on the ground. The ball must be  lying in a part of the general area cut to fairway height.  A ball stuck in a bush growing in the general area is part of that area.  But if  you take a look at Interpretations 14.3c(2)/2 and 14.3c1. you will see that  the "ground" includes the bush anyway.

 

So, yes, you would be be entitled to preferred lie relief if your ball was in a bush or tree growing in a part of the general area cut to fairway height and the unanswered question remains whether the vertical distance is included or not in measuring the relief area.

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Colin L

[Halebopp]

27 minutes ago, Colin L said:

You might want to re- consider this.

 

The local rule says nothing about the ball being on the ground. The ball must be  lying in a part of the general area cut to fairway height.  A ball stuck in a bush growing in the general area is part of that area.  But if  you take a look at Interpretations 14.3c(2)/2 and 14.3c1. you will see that  the "ground" includes the bush anyway.

 

So, yes, you would be be entitled to preferred lie relief if your ball was in a bush or tree growing in a part of the general area cut to fairway height and the unanswered question remains whether the vertical distance is included or not in measuring the relief area.

 

 

I have to say I'm not certain of the ball lying off the ground.

 

But, in my opinion those Interpretations only tell us that the bush is a part of the relief area, not that the bush would be considered a part of the ground.

 

14.3c(2)/2 specifically separates a bush from the ground:

 

Quote

 

"If a player must complete the dropping procedure by placing a ball using Rules 14.2b(2) and 14.2e, this might result in the player attempting to place a ball other than on the ground.

 

For example, if the player is dropping into a bush in the relief area..."

 

 

[Socrates]

1 hour ago, Colin L said:

You might want to re- consider this.

 

The local rule says nothing about the ball being on the ground. The ball must be  lying in a part of the general area cut to fairway height.  A ball stuck in a bush growing in the general area is part of that area.  But if  you take a look at Interpretations 14.3c(2)/2 and 14.3c1. you will see that  the "ground" includes the bush anyway.

 

So, yes, you would be be entitled to preferred lie relief if your ball was in a bush or tree growing in a part of the general area cut to fairway height and the unanswered question remains whether the vertical distance is included or not in measuring the relief area.

 

Under those interpretations, the ball is being dropped so relief or a penalty stroke has already been applied/given. 

 

By your interpretation of the interpretation, a ball lodged in a tree (in the fairway) 20 feet up would be able to be removed (lifted), cleaned and placed on the ground.  This would be a gross miss-application of LCP IMO. 

[Colin L]

26 minutes ago, Socrates said:

Under those interpretations, the ball is being dropped so relief or a penalty stroke has already been applied/given. 

 

By your interpretation of the interpretation, a ball lodged in a tree (in the fairway) 20 feet up would be able to be removed (lifted), cleaned and placed on the ground.  This would be a gross miss-application of LCP IMO. 

You are entitled to free relief from a ball lodged 20 feet up a tree in GUR.  Same concept.  But whether or not getting relief from that position using the preferred lie rule  is absurd or by analogy with GUR acceptable is not the point.  The point is that  we dcn't know for sure whether the distance stipulated in a local rule  for a preferred lie applies to vertical distance from the surface of the ground or not.  If it does then clearly a ball farther up a bush or tree  than that distance will not be eligible for relief and you'll be happy as would I.

 

We need to hear from the rule makers once they've finishing thinking about it.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Colin L

[Socrates]

43 minutes ago, Colin L said:

You are entitled to free relief from a ball lodged 20 feet up a tree in GUR.  Same concept.  But whether or not getting relief from that position using the preferred lie rule  is absurd or by analogy with GUR acceptable is not the point.  The point is that  we dcn't know for sure whether the distance stipulated in a local rule  for a preferred lie applies to vertical distance from the surface of the ground or not.  If it does then clearly a ball farther up a bush or tree  than that distance will not be eligible for relief and you'll be happy as would I.

 

We need to hear from the rule makers once they've finishing thinking about it.

One can only hope that while they are considering which retirement home they will chose, they find some time to give an answer to this. 

[2bGood]

On 11/21/2021 at 7:45 AM, Socrates said:

Under those interpretations, the ball is being dropped so relief or a penalty stroke has already been applied/given. 

 

By your interpretation of the interpretation, a ball lodged in a tree (in the fairway) 20 feet up would be able to be removed (lifted), cleaned and placed on the ground.  This would be a gross miss-application of LCP IMO. 

To me this is the interesting part of the questions. I would interpret "the rule"* as letting you take relief from that 20 foot tree, but it would need to be within 6" of the location (no option to move it 20 feet to the ground).

 

*As we are talking about a local rule - who really knows what the actual 'hypothetical' local rule says???

 

As an aside in the PNW I have played several course with LCP designated for the general area in the 'off season'. Typically very tight old style courses with narrow fairways where rough comes into play allot. The rough tends to be the biggest issue at these courses needing LCP as it does not have the drainage of the fairways and equipment can not get in to cut the grass during the wet season. It is not ideal to allow LCP in the general area, but it the cases like this, it does make sense to me. 

[Mr. Bean]

IMO, if we ponder the purpose of LC&P we just might come to a conclusion that a ball stuck in a tree is not the kind of situation in which this LR is to be used. Thus the easiest and most logical way would be to limit the use within the specific distance declared in the LR in question.

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, 2bGood said:

As an aside in the PNW I have played several course with LCP designated for the general area in the 'off season'. Typically very tight old style courses with narrow fairways where rough comes into play allot. The rough tends to be the biggest issue at these courses needing LCP as it does not have the drainage of the fairways and equipment can not get in to cut the grass during the wet season. It is not ideal to allow LCP in the general area, but it the cases like this, it does make sense to me. 

 

I though the rough is there to make playing more difficult than from the fairway...

 

I have heard of one (and only one) competition in which LC&P was used in the GA and that was due to extremely wet conditions. The other option would have been to discontinue the multi-day competition but the committee chose to extend the LR outside the closely mown areas.

[antip]

50 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

IMO, if we ponder the purpose of LC&P we just might come to a conclusion that aball stuck in a tree is not the kind of situation in which this LR is to be used. Thus the easiest and most logical way would be to limit the use within the specific distance declared in the LR in question.

Welcome back, Mr B!

 

We could come to that conclusion. Or, we could conclude the intent is to treat equally any ball finishing within the limits of the closely mown, so it is reasonable to include the unfortunate and unlikely event of a ball sticking in a tree in the middle of the fairway. 

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, antip said:

Or, we could conclude the intent is to treat equally any ball finishing within the limits of the closely mown, so it is reasonable to include the unfortunate and unlikely event of a ball sticking in a tree in the middle of the fairway. 

 

That is indeed one route to take but from what conditions the player is getting a relief from in such a case? The basis of the LR in question are abnormal conditions which, in a tree, just might be very normal 😄

 

I guess this is why it takes so long from the RBs to decide as they are not sure which route to take.

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That is indeed one route to take but from what conditions the player is getting a relief from in such a case? The basis of the LR in question are abnormal conditions which, in a tree, just might be very normal 😄

 

I guess this is why it takes so long from the RBs to decide as they are not sure which route to take.

Perhaps the need for consistency is causing some thought.  The same question arises as to what conditions the player is getting relief from when his ball is up a tree in GUR.  I don't think it would be wise to have a different outcome for each situation.    

 

Or perhaps they're rather busy and the likelihood of the situation occurring is so low that the matter is correspondingly low in  their to-do list.

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Colin L

[Mr. Bean]

43 minutes ago, Colin L said:

1) Perhaps the need for consistency is causing some thought.  The same question arises as to what conditions the player is getting relief from when his ball is up a tree in GUR.  I don't think it would be wise to have a different outcome for each situation.    

 

2) Or perhaps they're rather busy and the likelihood of the situation occurring is so low that the matter is correspondingly low in  their to-do list.

 

 

1) Yes, consistency is very important and in this case it is a tricky question because a GUR is an area from which the relief is granted while LC&P is solely about conditions, so there is a difference. Nevertheless, consistency can very much be seen as an issue.

 

2) That was my first though when I read the OP. How often does this actually happen?

[Colin L]

I'm not actually seeing the difference.  Both LCP and GUR give  you relief from abnormal course conditions.  The only real differences are the reference points and possibly the size of the relief areas.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Colin L

[Mr. Bean]

25 minutes ago, Colin L said:

I'm not actually seeing the difference.  Both LCP and GUR give  you relief from abnormal course conditions.  The only real differences are the reference points and possibly the size of the relief areas.

 

Well, the way I see it is that GUR is a pre-defined area and one is allowed to get a relief from the entire area by Definition. LC&P gives a relief from a specific spot instead from an area.

 

Maybe we will get an official view on this someday. Until then I wait for the day to encounter such a situation. Around here it will take a while, we just got the first snow 😄

[Socrates]

I still see this as an "Order of Operations" problem.  In all other circumstances in Rule applications, you take relief from the immediate issue (whether free or penalty) and then once the ball is back in play, you take relief from the next issue. 

 

For example, taking relief from an unplayable lie (i.e. too close to an OB fence and can't make a swing).  You take your relief (penalty) and drop the ball.  If it is on a cart path or in casual water, you would then take relief from that situation.  You have have to go through the procedure.  Same with the ball lodged in a bush or tree.

 

This is just as unlikely as the OP's situation - but let's say it happened...

LCP is being used in closely mown areas.  What if for some reason, just as you hit a referee decided to cross your fairway and your ball landed on and stayed in a referee's cart and he stopped immediately.  You wouldn't ask for relief under LCP.  You would take relief from the position in the cart first and drop it.  Then use LCP and proceed. 

 

Or am I being too simplistic?

 

[Newby]

43 minutes ago, Socrates said:

I still see this as an "Order of Operations" problem.  In all other circumstances in Rule applications, you take relief from the immediate issue (whether free or penalty) and then once the ball is back in play, you take relief from the next issue. 

 

For example, taking relief from an unplayable lie (i.e. too close to an OB fence and can't make a swing).  You take your relief (penalty) and drop the ball.  If it is on a cart path or in casual water, you would then take relief from that situation.  You have have to go through the procedure.  Same with the ball lodged in a bush or tree.

 

This is just as unlikely as the OP's situation - but let's say it happened...

LCP is being used in closely mown areas.  What if for some reason, just as you hit a referee decided to cross your fairway and your ball landed on and stayed in a referee's cart and he stopped immediately.  You wouldn't ask for relief under LCP.  You would take relief from the position in the cart first and drop it.  Then use LCP and proceed. 

 

Or am I being too simplistic?

 

No. But if you are faced with two different issues, you make take relief in any order. If that coincidentally gives relief for the other, so be it - all good.

 

Sometimes it is worth thinking about the relief you are taking. The drop from a problem may give you another problem. But taking relief from the second may give an even more advantageous outcome.

 

Think of taking relief from individually staked trees and progressing umpteen yards onto the fairway.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Newby

[rogolf]

LCP Model Local Rule in effect.  My ball ends up in marked GUR in the closely-mown part of the general area.  When I look at taking GUR relief, my nearest point of complete relief is in the rough.  However, if I do LCP within the GUR area, then my nearest point of complete relief from the GUR would be in the closely-mown area.  I do the LCP, then take relief from the GUR and drop into the closely-mown area.  Now, can I do LCP again?

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Socrates said:

I still see this as an "Order of Operations" problem.  In all other circumstances in Rule applications, you take relief from the immediate issue (whether free or penalty) and then once the ball is back in play, you take relief from the next issue. 

 

For example, taking relief from an unplayable lie (i.e. too close to an OB fence and can't make a swing).  You take your relief (penalty) and drop the ball.  If it is on a cart path or in casual water, you would then take relief from that situation.  You have have to go through the procedure.  Same with the ball lodged in a bush or tree.

 

This is just as unlikely as the OP's situation - but let's say it happened...

LCP is being used in closely mown areas.  What if for some reason, just as you hit a referee decided to cross your fairway and your ball landed on and stayed in a referee's cart and he stopped immediately.  You wouldn't ask for relief under LCP.  You would take relief from the position in the cart first and drop it.  Then use LCP and proceed. 

 

Or am I being too simplistic?

 

 

But... what would your reasoning be when taking a free relief from a ball lodged in a tree..?

[Socrates]

Just now, Mr. Bean said:

 

But... what would your reasoning be when taking a free relief from a ball lodged in a tree..?

That's just it: there shouldn't be any free relief from what should be an unplayable lie.  I know that it can happen, but it really seems to be a bastardization of the intent of the Rules to extricate yourself from a situation.  I see it all the time on telecasts where a player gets Line of Sight relief from a TIO when they are absolutely dead with no chance of a swing.   It really should be TFL (tough * luck) for the player.  That's just me thinking it's wrong, but the Rules say otherwise.

 

I know the OP situation is rarely, if ever going to happen, but crazy stuff happens and hopefully a Ruling is forthcoming.

[rogolf]

51 minutes ago, Socrates said:

That's just it: there shouldn't be any free relief from what should be an unplayable lie.  I know that it can happen, but it really seems to be a bastardization of the intent of the Rules to extricate yourself from a situation.  I see it all the time on telecasts where a player gets Line of Sight relief from a TIO when they are absolutely dead with no chance of a swing.   It really should be TFL (tough * luck) for the player.  That's just me thinking it's wrong, but the Rules say otherwise.

 

I know the OP situation is rarely, if ever going to happen, but crazy stuff happens and hopefully a Ruling is forthcoming.

I know this is a digression, but I need to challenge your statement, "I see it all the time on telecasts where a player gets Line of Sight relief from a TIO when they are absolutely dead with no chance of a swing. .... That's just me thinking it's wrong, but the Rules say otherwise."

 

Below is part of the TIO Model Local Rule which explains when relief is not available,  The Rules do not "say otherwise".

 

(3) When No Relief Is Available Despite Having Interference. If the ball touches or is in or on the TIO, relief is always available.

But when the ball neither touches nor is in or on the TIO, there is no relief under this Local Rule if any of the following applies:

• From either physical interference or line of sight interference:

  • There is no relief when playing the ball as it lies would clearly be unreasonable because of something other than the TIO (such as when the player is unable to make a stroke because of where the ball lies in a bush outside the TIO), and

  • There is no relief when interference exists only because the player chooses a club, type of stance or swing or direction of play that is clearly unreasonable under the circumstances; and

• From line of sight interference:

  • There is no relief when it is clearly unreasonable for a player to play the ball far enough that the ball will reach the TIO, and

  • There is no relief when the player cannot show that there is a stroke that he or she could reasonably play that would both (a) have the TIO (including the corridor) on the line of that stroke, and (b) result in the ball finishing on a direct line to the hole.

Edited November 23, 2021 by rogolf

[Socrates]

You are correct.  I was a little over zealous with my statement.  But you do see players getting relief from TIO's that extricate them from positions from which they would have very little chance of recovery.  Anyway, that is a fight for another day.  But it does give insight into my line of thinking.

[antip]

9 hours ago, rogolf said:

LCP Model Local Rule in effect.  My ball ends up in marked GUR in the closely-mown part of the general area.  When I look at taking GUR relief, my nearest point of complete relief is in the rough.  However, if I do LCP within the GUR area, then my nearest point of complete relief from the GUR would be in the closely-mown area.  I do the LCP, then take relief from the GUR and drop into the closely-mown area.  Now, can I do LCP again?

The recent Short Course processes has seen the USGA state definitively you can do LCP after a drop (assuming LCP is in place) even when LCP was taken before the drop.