One rule I would like to see changed.

[Nels55]

I would prefer to simply place the ball instead of dropping it when taking relief but I understand that people have a real problem with doing that and want to have the randomness of dropping the ball so I am okay with living with that.  

 

The change that I would like to see is to only drop once if the ball rolls outside of the designated area instead of dropping it twice and then placing it.  There are a couple of reasons for my desire to change this particular rule:

 

1)  I have a dropped a ball twice many many times and then placed it but very rarely have I dropped twice and had the second dropped ball come to rest in the correct area.  To me it is just a waste of time making the second drop. 

 

2)  Believe it or not I have been at times in a situation at my course where the drop is obviously going to roll out of the drop area and into the creek where I cannot find it or I have to climb down the the hill to retrieve it which is not a fun situation to be in.  Normally I would get some help from someone in my foursome but sometimes this is not practical because everyone else is busy with their own problems.  So I cheat like hell and stop the ball with my foot before it rolls out of the drop area.  LOL then I have to try to remember where it hit the ground after the second drop in order to place it.  

 

I suppose that most of you may never run into a situation like this but it seems to happen to me more often then I would like and hopefully you can see my point? 

 

Hmmm, I guess that becoming a better ball striker would help!  

[Augster]

 I imagine this is a joke but I’ll bite. 
 

Once the ball has rolled outside your drop area and it clearly isn’t going to come to rest inside the drop area, you are free to pick it up before it rolls down a hill or into a creek. This was changed in 2019. 
 

So if you put your foot 1 inch outside the drop area, it’s not cheating. 

[Halebopp]

Augster is correct: https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-14#14-3d

 

Exception – When There Is No Reasonable Chance Ball Will Come to Rest in Relief Area:

If a ball dropped in the right way is deliberately deflected or stopped (whether in the relief area or outside the relief area) when there is no reasonable chance it will come to rest in the relief area:

• There is no penalty to any player, and
• The dropped ball is treated as having come to rest outside the relief area and counts as one of the two drops required before a ball must be placed under Rule 14.3c(2).

[Nels55]

On 11/20/2021 at 11:36 PM, Augster said:

 I imagine this is a joke but I’ll bite. 
 

Once the ball has rolled outside your drop area and it clearly isn’t going to come to rest inside the drop area, you are free to pick it up before it rolls down a hill or into a creek. This was changed in 2019. 
 

So if you put your foot 1 inch outside the drop area, it’s not cheating. 

Nope, not joking though I guess I can see why you might think that...  LOL I really hate doing things that seem to me to be a complete waste of time.  I suppose that my course may be rather unusual in the number of drops on the side of a hill that I see every day, don't know.  Another part of this is that I am often having to explain how to take relief as a majority of golfers that I golf with don't have any clue and when I tell them they have to drop again after the ball rolls out of the relief area it seems rather awkward. 

 

I suppose that people who play golf courses that are flat and have real rough would not run into this situation very often and might not understand my frustration.  Anyway I would really like to see this rule changed!

 

As for your comment about stopping the ball after it is outside the drop area but before it rolls into the creek that would be impossible in a lot of cases but but thanks to Halebopp I see that what I was doing is legal so I will continue to do that!  Makes things much easier!  

[jordan2240]

I like the idea of just placing the ball in the first place.

[sui generis]

9 hours ago, jordan2240 said:

I like the idea of just placing the ball in the first place.

 

You'd enjoy the 10 am group at a nearby public course. They've agreed to tee 'em up anywhere they want: fairway, rough, bunkers, penalty areas, et al. 😉

[Imp]

1 minute ago, sui generis said:

 

You'd enjoy the 10 am group at a nearby public course. They've agreed to tee 'em up anywhere they want: fairway, rough, bunkers, penalty areas, et al. 😉

It's always winter somewhere.

[jordan2240]

13 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

You'd enjoy the 10 am group at a nearby public course. They've agreed to tee 'em up anywhere they want: fairway, rough, bunkers, penalty areas, et al. 😉

We've already discussed the issue, and apparently neither of us has changed his opinion.  I prefer placing for the reasons noted by the op, not to make the game easier.

[Imp]

10 hours ago, jordan2240 said:

We've already discussed the issue, and apparently neither of us has changed his opinion.  I prefer placing for the reasons noted by the op, not to make the game easier.

 

Scenario: Allow placing of the ball instead of dropping.

Allowing a unilateral 'place ball' rule would make the next shot easier for all those 'drops' that wouldn't roll outside the drop area too. How many drops actually roll out of the area that you've taken? For me, less than 5%. Most drops I take bounce once and stay within 2-4 inches of the drop.  So, that would equate, at least for me, 95% better/easier shots after placing the ball because now I get to determine my lie. 

Any time you get to 'place' the ball, the lie is going to be the optimum for the next shot. i.e., placing, by default, makes the game easier vs a drop and deal with the result.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Imp

[jordan2240]

1 hour ago, Imp said:

 

Scenario: Allow placing of the ball instead of dropping.

Allowing a unilateral 'place ball' rule would make the next shot easier for all those 'drops' that wouldn't roll outside the drop area too. How many drops actually roll out of the area that you've taken? For me, less than 5%. Most drops I take bounce once and stay within 2-4 inches of the drop.  So, that would equate, at least for me, 95% better/easier shots after placing the ball because now I get to determine my lie. 

Any time you get to 'place' the ball, the lie is going to be the optimum for the next shot. i.e., placing, by default, makes the game easier vs a drop and deal with the result.

 

 

I agree that it makes that one shot easier, but given the number of drops one takes during a round, I would be surprised if there was any significant scoring advantage.

[Imp]

33 minutes ago, jordan2240 said:

I agree that it makes that one shot easier, but given the number of drops one takes during a round, I would be surprised if there was any significant scoring advantage.

Ummm.... 

 

13 hours ago, jordan2240 said:

 I prefer placing for the reasons noted by the op, not to make the game easier.

You just admitted it makes it easier, *but that's not why you want it*. The byproduct that it makes it easier for most is why it shouldn't exist as you suggest.

[jordan2240]

40 minutes ago, Imp said:

Ummm.... 

 

You just admitted it makes it easier, *but that's not why you want it*. The byproduct that it makes it easier for most is why it shouldn't exist as you suggest.

Some topics are better left for face-to-face discussion, as misinterpretation is less likely. For your next 5 rounds, place the ball in instances where you would have dropped, and see if your scoring improved.

Edited November 24, 2021 by jordan2240

[david.c.w]

1 hour ago, jordan2240 said:

I agree that it makes that one shot easier, but given the number of drops one takes during a round, I would be surprised if there was any significant scoring advantage.

 

How many drops are you taking a round?  Are you losing 6 balls a round or is your course full of GUR?

 

While I really don't care either way if i drop or place, I would overall side with the folks who would argue that the drop should change to place if the drop is resulting from a penalty stroke.  You have been penalized already for a poor shot.  No need to be penalized again.

 

However no place if drop from GUR.  Also, I have zero passion for this but understand the desire for placing.

 

 

 

[Haroputt]

Taking practice swing in the bunker without incurring penalty.   I think this would be a not be possible to pass   What can’t a player make a practice swing to test the bunker?
Players take practice swings all the time when not in a hazard 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Haroputt

[Nels55]

I do think that environment has a great deal to do with how a person might feel about the drop rule.  If I played a different course then I might feel rather differently about the matter. 

 

LOL at my course dropping the ball is a skill that can easily make a stroke or two difference on a given round.  I don't know how many times I have not focused really hard on where and how I am dropping the ball and have ended up in a divot like place on dirt with 'grass' all around it.  One skill that I am marginally good at is dropping the ball on a tuft of grass but just off to the side so that the ball will kick out of the drop area and then I can place it on the tuft of grass.  LOL believe or not I have practiced doing this!

 

LOL having to hone my skills at dropping the ball is definitely one reason why I would like to see the rule changed to simply placing the ball and moving on!

[Mr. Bean]

I would go for one drop and then place. What's the harm in omitting one drop? Any rational reason from anyone? And I mean rational.

[jobin]

Taking practice swings, and certainly hitting the sand, is perfectly legal when your ball is not in that particular bunker.  Two adjacent bunkers, use the one without your ball and take your practice.

But in my recent experience the ignorant ones in your group will decry your actions and call loudly for a penalty. 

[ND2005]

On 11/24/2021 at 11:28 AM, Haroputt said:

Taking practice swing in the bunker without incurring penalty.   I think this would be a not be possible to pass   What can’t a player make a practice swing to test the bunker?
Players take practice swings all the time when not in a hazard 

 

Part of the reason I love visiting the Pinehurst area...pretty much every course has a local rule allowing you to ground your club in the sand

[davep043]

11 minutes ago, ND2005 said:

 

Part of the reason I love visiting the Pinehurst area...pretty much every course has a local rule allowing you to ground your club in the sand

I just got back from 2 weeks there, and only recall one course having that rule, Tobacco Road.  Most had reasonably defined bunkers, as well as other sandy portions of the General Area.

[sui generis]

2 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I just got back from 2 weeks there, and only recall one course having that rule, Tobacco Road.  Most had reasonably defined bunkers, as well as other sandy portions of the General Area.

 

How do they do that, Dave? Perhaps MLR C-2 Changing Status of Areas of Sand?

[Mr. Bean]

18 minutes ago, ND2005 said:

 

Part of the reason I love visiting the Pinehurst area...pretty much every course has a local rule allowing you to ground your club in the sand

 

I would suggest that kind of Local Rule is not allowed, if we are talking about bunkers and not waste areas. Which do not need any LR for that matter.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[davep043]

3 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

How do they do that, Dave? Perhaps MLR C-2 Changing Status of Areas of Sand?

They enact a totally unacceptable local rule allowing lift-smooth-place.  Saves them buying enough rakes for the 10,000 acres (slight exaggeration) of sandy areas on the course.

[sui generis]

22 minutes ago, davep043 said:

They enact a totally unacceptable local rule allowing lift-smooth-place.  Saves them buying enough rakes for the 10,000 acres (slight exaggeration) of sandy areas on the course.

 

Ah, well, sometimes we have to take the world as we find it and not as we wish it might be. 😉

[Mr. Bean]

51 minutes ago, davep043 said:

They enact a totally unacceptable local rule allowing lift-smooth-place.  Saves them buying enough rakes for the 10,000 acres (slight exaggeration) of sandy areas on the course.

 

Isn't that one of the Covid-rules from last year? I thought they were already taken out of use.

[Purple Toupee]

Tobacco Road has always been like that.  Any sandy areas are considered waste areas, not bunkers.

[Halebopp]

15 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Isn't that one of the Covid-rules from last year? I thought they were already taken out of use.

 

No, the Ruling Bodies explicitly stated such a local rule is not allowed. You could either declare bunkers to be GUR or allow Preferred Lies inside bunkers.

[davep043]

16 hours ago, Purple Toupee said:

Tobacco Road has always been like that.  Any sandy areas are considered waste areas, not bunkers.

I believe this is correct, but the practice of "lift-smooth-replace" isn't contained in any acceptable Local Rule.  I suppose that the Preferred Lies rule could be adapted to use within sandy portions of the General Area.

[DaveLeeNC]

1 hour ago, Halebopp said:

 

No, the Ruling Bodies explicitly stated such a local rule is not allowed. You could either declare bunkers to be GUR or allow Preferred Lies inside bunkers.

 

In the context of lots of places (like Pinehurst) the tough question becomes where is the bunker boundary.  There was talk before the 2014 US Open on Pinehurst No. 2 (quite possibly NOT among the USGA folks who actually make decisions) that a sandy area was only a bunker if it was 100% surrounded by closely mown grass. That is not how it was played in 2014. Among club members that tends to be the way it is played for casual play. 

 

dave

[davep043]

Just now, DaveLeeNC said:

There was talk before the 2014 US Open on Pinehurst No. 2 (quite possibly NOT among the USGA folks who actually make decisions) that a sandy area was only a bunker if it was 100% surrounded by closely mown grass.

I was a volunteer Marshal for the 2014 US Open, and happened to be around watching practice early in the week.  I saw a group of maybe a dozen Rules Officials who were being instructed as to how to determine the limits of bunkers.  It was similar to what you describe, bunkers do (or did at the time) have a fairly clearly defined boundary of turf, although its not all closely mown.  I certainly don't know the course as well as you do, but I don't remember seeing any areas where the limits of the bunkers weren't reasonably clear.

[DaveLeeNC]

33 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I was a volunteer Marshal for the 2014 US Open, and happened to be around watching practice early in the week.  I saw a group of maybe a dozen Rules Officials who were being instructed as to how to determine the limits of bunkers.  It was similar to what you describe, bunkers do (or did at the time) have a fairly clearly defined boundary of turf, although its not all closely mown.  I certainly don't know the course as well as you do, but I don't remember seeing any areas where the limits of the bunkers weren't reasonably clear.

 

Generally speaking the area 'toward the course' has pretty well defined boundaries. But there are many/many places when moving 'away from the course' the 'bunkers' kind of fade away to sandy soil, maybe pinestraw or maybe various native plants, and so on. And the RoG don't deal well with 'reasonably clear'. The pic below is typical. 

 

dave

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by DaveLeeNC