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DQ prior to tee-off?


jobin
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Do the Rules support DQ before any shot has been taken? 

 

I have read recently (but cannot now find the info) that some player carrying 15 clubs towards the first tee, found the bad club, took it out of his bag, notified the others in his group, marked the club as bad and dumped it into the back of his buggy.

He was subsequently DQ for 15 clubs.

 

Too harsh, IMO.  What do the Rules say about such a situation as this?  And, as above, are there any circumstances of DQ before the first shot of the day?  The nearby thread about Rory S and his Trackman dots on the driver face did bring him a DQ but i do not know if he hit any balls with that club.  Was simply carrying, never using, a non-conforming club grounds for DQ?

 

I'm not here thinking of personal violence towards other player, like punching someone in the nose at the starters hut and otherwise acting without respect towards fellow competitors.  

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I am not sure where you are getting your interpretation of rule 4 from, but 4.1C outlines your options and unless you brought 15 clubs on purpose, you can declare one out of play without penalty: 

 

(2) Before Round. If a player becomes aware shortly before starting a round that he or she accidentally has more than 14 clubs, the player should try to leave the excess club or clubs behind.

But as an option without penalty:

  • The player may take any such excess clubs out of play before the start of the round, using the procedure in (1), and 

  • The excess clubs may be kept by the player (but must not be used) during the round, and they do not count towards the 14-club limit.

If a player deliberately brings more than 14 clubs to his or her first teeing area and starts the round without leaving the excess clubs behind, this option is not allowed and Rule 4.1b(1) applies.

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To your question about Rory Sabbatini, yes, he had made a stroke with that club, from a report,

“I had these four little stickers on the club, three on the toe, one on the heel,” Sabbatini said in a phone interview on Monday. He used the club on the first hole. “One of my playing partners said, ‘Are you allowed to have those stickers on the club?’”

https://golf.com/news/sabbatini-on-weird-dq-olympic-medal-tigers-comeback/

 

Regarding your query about 15 clubs, I suspect it had to do with Decision 4.4c/1, which, prior to 2016, was as shown below,

 

4-4c/1  Excess Club Declared Out of Play Before Round and Placed on Floor of Golf Cart

Q.  Before the start of a round, a player discovers that there are 15 clubs in his golf bag. He declares one of the clubs out of play, removes it from his bag, places it on the floor of his golf cart and begins the round.  Is the player subject to penalty?

A.  Yes, for starting the round with more than 14 clubs.  Rule 4-4c has to do with declaring an excess club out of play on discovery of a breach after a round has started.  There is nothing in the Rules to permit carrying, during a round, an excess club declared out of play before the round.

 

The player would not have been dq'd before the round but would have been later for not declaring one of the 15 clubs out of play during the round.  BTW, that Decision was one of most disliked Decisions.

Edited by rogolf
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1 hour ago, jobin said:

Do the Rules support DQ before any shot has been taken? 

 

I have read recently (but cannot now find the info) that some player carrying 15 clubs towards the first tee, found the bad club, took it out of his bag, notified the others in his group, marked the club as bad and dumped it into the back of his buggy.

He was subsequently DQ for 15 clubs.

 

Too harsh, IMO.  What do the Rules say about such a situation as this?  And, as above, are there any circumstances of DQ before the first shot of the day?  The nearby thread about Rory S and his Trackman dots on the driver face did bring him a DQ but i do not know if he hit any balls with that club.  Was simply carrying, never using, a non-conforming club grounds for DQ?

 

I'm not here thinking of personal violence towards other player, like punching someone in the nose at the starters hut and otherwise acting without respect towards fellow competitors.  

 

Not sure about any DQ'd before the player strikes a shot.

 

NO DQ for more than 14  clubs though. Penalty is 2 shots per hole to a maximum of 4 shots. In match play you adjust the match by 1 hole per holed played against the offending player to a maximum of 2 holes.

 

Excess club(s) must be taken out of play when discovered.

 

What matters apparently though is whether or not the player knew he was bringing more than 14 clubs to the first tee. If he KNEW he had the excess clubs he's penalized as above UNLESS he can leave the excess club(s) behind before he starts.

 

If he accidentally brings a 15th club to the first tee and there is no practical way of leaving the extra club(s) behind he is permitted to declare the extras out of play and move them elsewhere is his cart, turn them upside down in his bag or similar and there is NO penalty.

 

 

 

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Back to your original question - a few obvious ways you can be DQ'd without taking a stroke are:

 

- Showing up later than 5min for your tee time

-practicing (twice) on the course before your round in stroke play

 

Both fall under rule 5 if you want the details. 

 

Some other ideas:

-Declare a handicap too high (you have to correct it before your opponent plays their stroke not before you play yours)

-Turn in your (unsigned) scorecard in before you tee off  (kind of goofy but is another way)

 

I am sure there are several others

 

 

Edited by 2bGood
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On 11/24/2021 at 12:48 AM, jobin said:

Do the Rules support DQ before any shot has been taken? 

 

I have read recently (but cannot now find the info) that some player carrying 15 clubs towards the first tee, found the bad club, took it out of his bag, notified the others in his group, marked the club as bad and dumped it into the back of his buggy.

He was subsequently DQ for 15 clubs.

 

 

Something in this story does not add up.

 

As already explained you cannot be DQ'd for carrying 15 clubs, but as we are here dealing with Rule 4.1b which says 'player MUST immediately take the excess club out of play', what if the player does NOT declare it out of play? Would that be worth disqualification?

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35 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Something in this story does not add up.

 

As already explained you cannot be DQ'd for carrying 15 clubs, but as we are here dealing with Rule 4.1b which says 'player MUST immediately take the excess club out of play', what if the player does NOT declare it out of play? Would that be worth disqualification?

See Rule 4.1c(1) and penalty statement.

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50 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So if the player does not take the excess club(s) out of play s/he is disqualified even if s/he would not make any strokes with the club(s), correct?

If you have 15 clubs in your bag and none are declared out of play - what club is the "excess club"?😉

 

Does it make sense why hitting the 'excess club' is irrelevant to the penalty?

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15 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

If you have 15 clubs in your bag and none are declared out of play - what club is the "excess club"?😉

 

Does it make sense why hitting the 'excess club' is irrelevant to the penalty?

 

Good point. Though, I can envisage this:

' Darn, I forgot my old driver in the bag, the one I never use in competitions, and now I have 15 clubs! Oh well, I just leave it in the bag.'

 

I would say that driver would be the excess club and it is not declared out of play.

 

But you are absolutely correct. If no club is taken out of play then use of any club would be a breach. 

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2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Good point. Though, I can envisage this:

' Darn, I forgot my old driver in the bag, the one I never use in competitions, and now I have 15 clubs! Oh well, I just leave it in the bag.'

 

I would say that driver would be the excess club and it is not declared out of play.

 

But you are absolutely correct. If no club is taken out of play then use of any club would be a breach. 

Yes my point is from rules official point of view there is no way to determine what the excess club is unless the player declares it. If the player does not make a declaration then you have to assume any club could be excess and apply the penalty regardless of what clubs are hit.

 

If the rules was not this way it would fundamentally change the way equipment is handled as it would not be until you hit 15 different clubs in a round would you penalised. You could carry extra clubs and just make sure you only use 14 of them, which would kind of be interesting strategy game - making you bag to make sure you only you the 14 optimal clubs during the round.  Essentially you get to choose your 14 clubs during the round rather than before. 

Edited by 2bGood
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22 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Yes my point is from rules official point of view there is no way to determine what the excess club is unless the player declares it. If the player does not make a declaration then you have to assume any club could be excess and apply the penalty regardless of what clubs are hit.

 

If the rules was not this way it would fundamentally change the way equipment is handled as it would not be until you hit 15 different clubs in a round would you penalised. You could carry extra clubs and just make sure you only use 14 of them, which would kind of be interesting strategy game - making you bag to make sure you only you the 14 optimal clubs during the round.  Essentially you get to choose your 14 clubs during the round rather than before. 

 

That is not quite correct as you would get 4 penalty strokes anyway for carrying more than 14 clubs.

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1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That is not quite correct as you would get 4 penalty strokes anyway for carrying more than 14 clubs.

And it does not matter which clubs he has used up to the point of the discovery of having started with more than 14 clubs; the penalty will be two strokes on the first hole and two strokes on the second hole regardless of when it's discovered.

Next question - what happens if it's not discovered until after the round is completed?

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5 minutes ago, rogolf said:

And it does not matter which clubs he has used up to the point of the discovery of having started with more than 14 clubs; the penalty will be two strokes on the first hole and two strokes on the second hole regardless of when it's discovered.

Next question - what happens if it's not discovered until after the round is completed?

 

1) Not quite. If it was discovered before the 2nd tee shot it'd be "only" 2 shots on the 1st hole and that's it.

 

2) I would have to assume the player hand handed in/signed for a score lower than he had actually made.

 

I believe now it can be corrected and the penalty strokes applied retroactively IF the player didn't know he'd violated a rule.

 

But had he known he'd violated the rule and didn't apply the penalty strokes I believe he'd be DQ'd for signing for a score lower than he actually made.

 

 

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There is no DQ for excess clubs in the bag.  I was looping a pro event in the mid 80s when a well known golfer of the era came to the first tee box with and extra long iron in his bag.  He'd been hitting both 1i and 2i on the range and one of them got covered up by the head cover for a fairway wood.  When he pulled his driver from the bag, the extra club was exposed.  

 

The key is intent.  His caddie saw it, pulled it and reported to the starter, who marked it and gave it to a runner to return to the locker room.  No harm, no foul.  If it was discovered mid-round, it would have been a 2 stroke penalty for every hole played to that point, up to 4 strokes.  It happens.  DQ would occur for Intentional Misconduct if the extra club was intentional and attempts were made to hide it during the round.

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9 minutes ago, OnTheBag said:

There is no DQ for excess clubs in the bag.  I was looping a pro event in the mid 80s when a well known golfer of the era came to the first tee box with and extra long iron in his bag.  He'd been hitting both 1i and 2i on the range and one of them got covered up by the head cover for a fairway wood.  When he pulled his driver from the bag, the extra club was exposed.  

 

The key is intent.  His caddie saw it, pulled it and reported to the starter, who marked it and gave it to a runner to return to the locker room.  No harm, no foul.  If it was discovered mid-round, it would have been a 2 stroke penalty for every hole played to that point, up to 4 strokes.  It happens.  DQ would occur for Intentional Misconduct if the extra club was intentional and attempts were made to hide it during the round.

 

It is very dangerous to reflect experiences in the 80's against today when it comes to Rules. As it has been said according to R4.1c a player is DQ'd if they fail to take out of play the excess club(s) as soon as they have noticed there is/are any. Thus excess clubs in the bag just may get you DQ'd.

Edited by Mr. Bean
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27 minutes ago, OnTheBag said:

There is no DQ for excess clubs in the bag.  I was looping a pro event in the mid 80s when a well known golfer of the era came to the first tee box with and extra long iron in his bag.  He'd been hitting both 1i and 2i on the range and one of them got covered up by the head cover for a fairway wood.  When he pulled his driver from the bag, the extra club was exposed.  

 

The key is intent.  His caddie saw it, pulled it and reported to the starter, who marked it and gave it to a runner to return to the locker room.  No harm, no foul.  If it was discovered mid-round, it would have been a 2 stroke penalty for every hole played to that point, up to 4 strokes.  It happens.  DQ would occur for Intentional Misconduct if the extra club was intentional and attempts were made to hide it during the round.

 

Get yourself a new Rule book. 😉

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Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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On 11/25/2021 at 7:33 PM, Mr. Bean said:

 

It is very dangerous to reflect experiences in the 80's against today when it comes to Rules. As it has been said according to R4.1c a player is DQ'd if they fail to take out of play the excess club(s) as soon as they have noticed there is/are any. Thus excess clubs in the bag just may get you DQ'd.

I stand corrected.  It sucks getting old, but my memory is still correct in how I read 4.1c today.  As long as the club is removed upon finding the extra, then no DQ will occur, just the stroke penalty.  However, if there is malicious intent then DQ would be the correct call.  

 

What am I missing in the interpretation of the new rule?

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1 hour ago, OnTheBag said:

I stand corrected.  It sucks getting old, but my memory is still correct in how I read 4.1c today.  As long as the club is removed upon finding the extra, then no DQ will occur, just the stroke penalty.  However, if there is malicious intent then DQ would be the correct call.  

 

What am I missing in the interpretation of the new rule?

 

It's not a long thread.

 

You should read it.

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5 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

It's not a long thread.

 

You should read it.

Why didn't I think of that???????

 

 

On 11/25/2021 at 7:22 PM, nsxguy said:

 

1) Not quite. If it was discovered before the 2nd tee shot it'd be "only" 2 shots on the 1st hole and that's it.

 

2) I would have to assume the player hand handed in/signed for a score lower than he had actually made.

 

I believe now it can be corrected and the penalty strokes applied retroactively IF the player didn't know he'd violated a rule.

 

But had he known he'd violated the rule and didn't apply the penalty strokes I believe he'd be DQ'd for signing for a score lower than he actually made.

 

 

 

How does what I said differ from what you typed here?  

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6 hours ago, OnTheBag said:

I stand corrected.  It sucks getting old, but my memory is still correct in how I read 4.1c today.  As long as the club is removed upon finding the extra, then no DQ will occur, just the stroke penalty.  However, if there is malicious intent then DQ would be the correct call.  

 

What am I missing in the interpretation of the new rule?

 

I explained it in the very post you commented on this post of yours.

 

So again. If you notice you have an extra club and you do NOT take it out of play you will be DQ'd (once you make your next stroke with any club). Got it?

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14 hours ago, OnTheBag said:

Why didn't I think of that???????

 

 

 

How does what I said differ from what you typed here?  

 

3) I don't know. Did you think of it ?

 

a) What you said wasn't the point. My post that you quoted wasn't addressed to you.

 

It was addressed to the poster who said "the penalty will be two strokes on the first hole and two strokes on the second hole regardless of when it's discovered"

 

That was incorrect; hence my post (to him).  tip hat.gif

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